Rolf

WO Steam Discussion

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3 minutes ago, MrJonnyboy said:

Would paying for premium on WO also give you premium on the steam version of the game?

The account databases will most probably be the same so you can't register MrJonnyboy on Steam if the account is created already. So if MrJonnyboy is premium on existing servers you can't play him on the Steam servers since the account already exists. If you create MrJonnyboyTwo via Steam you can prem him up via Steam. You will probably be able to prem him up via our website as well but we'll have to sort that out carefully due to Valve's RMT restrictions. 

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28 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

I guess my concern is that in the event all goes well, is a great success and the two don't become merged then I fear OGWO falls into an Epic situation. No reason to play there when everyone is having fun on the new servers with thousands of people so it slowly decays down to three people per server because the people who have been around supporting the game through thick and thin aren't allowed to take their efforts and join in without throwing away everything.

Don't get me wrong I want the game to succeed as much as the next person but I also don't like the idea of being shafted (again) and punished for picking the wrong time/place to play.

This is a valid point tho.

 

And bump for interest - this all sounds like a pretty solid plan. :)

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I think that is the first time Rolf has ever "liked" a post of mine ^_^

 

 

7 minutes ago, Shmeric said:

 

If and when the new Steam cluster goes well and gets thousands of players, and then it doesn't get merged to the current WO cluster at all, we as the current population won't really benefit at all from those numbers. 

 

 

Well, you would if it meant they could continue paying for staff to increase content. 

That might be more ... uncertain .. without some new cash flow of some sort.

 

 

Edited by Brash_Endeavors
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what the.. is ogwo

Maybe introducing too many servers will be counter productive, as current are far from filled up.. as the same time.. in my opinion it's an anchor that keeps people playing, deeds, views, friends, and so on.

As already mentioned.. if the new server fills up fast.. either new ones are going to be added or that 1 new steam world will be merged to freedom cluster(as new server I assume), than whoever is ~new or just starting out.. and not that rooted to their deed could move to xana or other servers to shift population to some of the old servers, solving the pop* problem on it's own... hopefully

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The whole idea of paying premium to increase skillgain aftee 20 is a huge turn off. Just have the same restrictions as now

Making skills start from 15 is stupid. Whats the point of 1-100 then if its 15-100? Just increase the creation % and creation timer at lower skills and problem solved.

 

One new server would work, but more would split the playerbase even more.

Getting thousands of players is also not guaranteed, in fact quite unlikely. Maybe in the first few months following the launch but i can see a huge steep drop off happening after when the core issues of the game come into play. 
 

In the end, i doubt this will solve much of the issues and low player counts, and will probably not get a lot of players. If the steam server at first isnt connected to the main cluster, the main cluster will become even more dead due to all the people trying out the steam version, as Sme pointed out. 
Without PROPER advertisements (that doesnt include random facebook posts and asking random gaming sites to write about wurm, which is all Retrogarde does) not many people will pick up the game or find out about it, even on Steam.
 

Edited by nitram20
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16 minutes ago, Shmeric said:

First of all, this is kind of an important thing and seeing the two main voices of the game not on the same page is a little off putting... In my humble opinion.

 

This post was meant to start a community discussion. Nothing is set in stone, which is why it may seem like Retro and Rolf aren’t “on the same page.” There is no page written yet; this is simply the drawing board. (At least from my understanding.)

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If you do end up removing the f2p hardcap, I'd suggest keeping priests to premium only. Have the softcap start at 50.

 

I'd also strongly recommend launching with a pvp server. I have a feeling most players coming from steam are going to want a less restrictive environment to play in. Assuming the work is still being done for epic that was aiming to be released around December, it would be wise to just release that as a new epic cluster on steam. 

 

 

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so will there be a pvp server added to steam?..or we gonna be dicked again & see no new ways of getting new blood into the pvp side? @Rolf

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2 minutes ago, Erin said:

so will there be a pvp server added to steam?..or we gonna be dicked again & see no new ways of getting new blood into the pvp side? @Rolf

Can we please see a dual server released with 1 pvp and 1 pve server?

I really like the idea of a steam server but you need to represent the pvp community too

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8 minutes ago, Kabill said:

If you do end up removing the f2p hardcap, I'd suggest keeping priests to premium only. Have the softcap start at 50.

 

I'd also strongly recommend launching with a pvp server. I have a feeling most players coming from steam are going to want a less restrictive environment to play in. Assuming the work is still being done for epic that was aiming to be released around December, it would be wise to just release that as a new epic cluster on steam. 

 

 

Agree. Steam PVP server +1

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@RolfI want an answer I have paid prem on multi accounts never mind the deeds / upkeep over them years for 10years on the pvp servers... I want to know if im wasting my time & money on pvp.. all I ever see is things to help the freedom side.. I want an answer

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2 hours ago, Rolf said:

Hmm no not really a revamp. It would mean opening a new server with the same code as before and releasing the game client for free on Steam. If we need more servers because a lot of players come we would start new ones.

The existing servers will remain.


I don't know the difference between a dream and a plan. Thinking about something becomes a plan I think, especially when you ask around and find out if there are any showstoppers or big problems with the idea. It's not like we need to plan a lot more once we've discussed this thoroughly. Then it's more "should we do it or not" and take the obvious steps.
 

 

The idea itself is very good, having a fresh start not connected to any other Wurm Online server with maybe different settings. I just see the problem of Wurm still being not newbie friendly enough, there is so much interest in Wurm, for example I monitor about 1000 unique steam ids per month on a project I work on, but most people fail and quit within a very short time. We have worked a lot on making Wurm more newbie friendly and we came up with a lot of things making the start easier, which showed a lot more interest and positive feedback, still the most hated thing is the UI and the controls, too much clicking and not enough modern usability elemens. People want to equip a hatchet and double click a tree nowadays to cut it down instead of right clicking and scrolling through a menu.

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1 minute ago, Sklo:D said:

 

The idea itself is very good, having a fresh start not connected to any other Wurm Online server with maybe different settings. I just see the problem of Wurm still being not newbie friendly enough, there is so much interest in Wurm, for example I monitor about 1000 unique steam ids per month on a project I work on, but most people fail and quit within a very short time. We have worked a lot on making Wurm more newbie friendly and we came up with a lot of things making the start easier, which showed a lot more interest and positive feedback, still the most hated thing is the UI and the controls, too much clicking and not enough modern usability elemens. People want to equip a hatchet and double click a tree nowadays to cut it down instead of right clicking and scrolling through a menu.

Use sklotopolis as a model for how the WO steam servers should be.

Steal this kids ideas.

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So fake 70% of your online players and give away free items and whatnot for real life money? 
Gotcha

Edited by nitram20
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2 hours ago, Rolf said:

Allright, so I thought I'd quench some of the will I stay or will I go-rumours by starting a new thread about an idea I've had quite a while.
 

Back in 2015 we put WU on Steam and it has worked out allright. Now sales there are dwindling but Steam remains the best place to promote and sell PC and Linux games. Trying to promote your game via Facebook or Google ads is very expensive to the point of being pointless unless your game looks and has a really triple A newbie experience. The attempts we make have very poor conversion rate. Not to mention larger expensive ads on websites which simply are huge costs per click for us.


Also trying to SEO the top rated search places for sandbox games isn't easy either even if we actually show up which I guess yields some traffic. But trying to improve there won't give much bang for the buck.


So I figured, how can we go about putting WO where the PC players are and words spread nowadays - on Steam? If someone searches for a type of game they'll get one hit per game instead so it's a democratic search of sorts. Free to play games are highly sought after and I think A LOT of people look for and try free to play MMOs there. Compared to finding us online and download our client via custom links and registration, on Steam we would work exactly like all other games. We would probably get a fairly stable stream of players who look for games like these and decide to try them out.
 

I asked the other devs and while moderately to very positive they raised the same initial questions many of you will. So I thought I'll start with them and a couple of my answers and then we'll discuss the rest.

 

Here goes:

Q1)  Would we be risking more fracturing of our player base?

I think it would be best to start clean server/s for a couple of reasons and aim to keep it/them in a separate cluster a good while. One is that new players deserve the feeling of being a newbie among other newbies with fresh land. This means that I believe their experience and inclination to stick around could be hampered by encountering very experienced accounts and high quality items. As the servers mature we merge them into the main cluster.

Exactly when this merge would take place would depend on how well the release goes. If we receive virtually no new players and it's basically a failure, the server would merge very quickly so fracturing wouldn't really happen. If, on the other hand thousands of players come we would have to consider more carefully when the right time to merge is. This would mean Wurm becomes more sustainable which surely must be good for everyone. If we are extremely lucky, we receive so many new players that we can merge earlier because the old accounts and items will be quickly dispersed among the new population (but then we're probably talking about tens of thousands of new players).


Q2) Steam gets a bit fussy with real money transactions. Can we abide by Steam Guidelines?
I don't see how we wouldn't abide by Steam guidelines. We aren't involved in RMT or account sales. Our players may be but that's not unusual for online games. We would look into what we can do with the Steam shop though so we support their systems.


Q3) How about the code base? Won't another branch be too much to handle?

We'll see about branches and code base. Basically the server shouldn't need a new branch as far as I can see. There will be new clients though but it sure must be worth it if we want to get thousands of new players.

Q4) How about staffing the servers? Will there be enough volunteers around to help out?

We don't know at this time. We can't require anyone to help out. Hopefully some will of course and perhaps some GM's might consider returning if they see Wurm on Steam. I'll be interested in pitching in as well at least around launch. It's also related to Q1: If it's a success there will probably be resources to staff the servers, if it's not the server will merge fairly quickly. The initial success of the game shouldn't be based on whether people get help from GM's really - the thrill of encountering Wurm should be the main attraction. I'm fairly sure there will be players to answer questions in chat channels though.

When it comes to answering questions in the Steam forum, hopefully Retro can manage some there as well or we suggest they visit these forums. Depends on the pressure.

 

Q5) Will we be able to deal with the added cost of infrastructure?

I am fairly certain the amount of new players will be able to sustain the cost of at least one server. If we need more servers the revenue is good so then we should be safe from other perspectives as well.

Q6) Would we release both Freedom and Epic servers?
We'd start with a Freedom server and be ready to launch more. You will have to discuss moving the Epic server there but from what I gather it would help with some multi account issues and might be a good solution for that.

Q7) What timeframe are we looking at?
Well, we would want the client to feel really polished. There are quite a lot of improvements planned and from what I understand we're looking at around Q1-Q2 (let's say February to April sometime) next year.

Okay so these are the initial thoughts I have. I am sure you have more so let's discuss more pros and cons!

Q1: new cluster sound like good idea but what difference WO from WU (already on steam). You cant prevent old wo/wu players go there. merge with existing cluster is bad idea, for steam realse some rates of timers and exp than WO will be a suicide, that means increase cluster ratios (whatever will be linked) or keep on different one.
Q2, no idea how steam manages money (for subscriptions), this is a subscription game and doubt can keep the same price that on WO, there are lots of games for half than WO subscription and even can buy some AAA in sales for the same amount. so sales will be expected to be low or maybe good idea something mixed like wu, all prem just buy silver for deeds (again separate cluster)
Q3: new branch is not our problem, is GCG problem now if they cant hire people to maintain it is not good idea release on steam as separate client (again WU already there)
Q4: why trying to get volounters only? depending on the how will be release maybe consider do something like free subscription, silver or other things for staff there (separated from WO)
Q5  is not GCG problem now?
Q6: same as i said before, there lots of games for less than 1 month of wurm subscription, release WO on steam will be  a bad idea, need down premium or keep a mixed system (like only silver)
Q7: maybe a try for like 6 months to see what happens
 

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I suspect Jackal is starting to see some burn-out - it's fun to start a new server with new skills and all, but having spent the effort getting my account up to sensible skills (twice, after epic), doing it again from scratch gets old.  At least doing it on freedom means I have ready access to the market for helper stuff (coc tools, PELTS!, decent weapons and armour).  Having experienced toons around isn't necessarily bad - it can be really positive too. 

 

There will be experienced folks jumping over on day 1 anyway, who know how to turbonerd the game, and will quickly outpace the newbs.  Exactly like happened on Jackal.  At least the other folks on Jackal will get some skill back at the end, but forcing people to pick between clusters seems a bit rough on the folks who kept everything going pre-steam.

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18 minutes ago, Sklo:D said:

 still the most hated thing is the UI and the controls, too much clicking and not enough modern usability elemens. People want to equip a hatchet and double click a tree nowadays to cut it down instead of right clicking and scrolling through a menu.

 

 

I think Retro usually said before any new "relaunch" or new advertising, would be coming a new tutorial, a new renderer, AND a new UI. We have had two of the three.

 

No idea whether this "new UI" is any good, but I think it is partially done. Back in 2017 or so when I suggested to a youtuber  "it won't be out THIS year, of course"  Retro thought I was being pessimistic. Clearly i wasn't but clearly Retro also thought there really was a decent chance it was "almost done".

 

I am thinking they DO have some real progress, now, on the new UI, and maybe it even excited staff enough to think "Yes, this could be that extra POLISH we always needed..."

 

Or, maybe i wish it were so ^_^

 

 

Edited by Brash_Endeavors
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2 hours ago, Rolf said:

One is that new players deserve the feeling of being a newbie among other newbies with fresh land. This means that I believe their experience and inclination to stick around could be hampered by encountering very experienced accounts and high quality items.

No doubt some current WO players will start playing on this new Steam WO server. As we have seen with new WO servers these players have the advantage of their knowledge on how the game functions so they can quickly outpace players new to the game but if this new Steam WO server is kept isolated from the current WO servers it will eliminate the additional advantage of current players that have a large bank balance to finance their advancement.

 

This is what has always corrupted the "equality" concept with new WO servers, access to total accumulated bank balance from other servers on the new one. Also, certain money making abilities (trader draining, etc) have had adjustments made to them so that on a new WO Steam server they will not have the same impact. Sales of items to the current WO servers will not be available so this will have an impact on current players starting on the new Steam WO servers just to make coins by dominating certain markets. All this can contribute to a more desirable new player experience by eliminating these current player advantages. If the ability to make $$$$ from playing the game is kept in check it will attract a different type of player in general.

 

Plus *maybe* the Steam policies will impose restrictions upon these types of RL player money transactions. All a positive direction for the game to take I would say. A game people play for fun and make their RL money outside of it. Also, if players want to purchase coins for deeds and player items at least they will need to buy these coins from the Wurm Shop thus helping the game to earn income. Traders could even be made to refuse to purchase players items as they do on Jackal. Even reducing other free coin drops into the game could be done. Then those who want to attempt to make $$$$ would still have the current WO servers available to do so and we would see what type of player these two different approaches attract.

 

Interesting Wurm times, it seems...

 

=Ayes=

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21 minutes ago, Erin said:

@RolfI want an answer I have paid prem on multi accounts never mind the deeds / upkeep over them years for 10years on the pvp servers... I want to know if im wasting my time & money on pvp.. all I ever see is things to help the freedom side.. I want an answer

 

Rolf comes here and wants a discussion, and we end up with entitled players throwing around demands without contributing to the discussion.

He already answered your question in Q6 btw.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Brash_Endeavors said:

Well, you would if it meant they could continue paying for staff to increase content. 

I guess my concern is what SmeJack pointed out. Without a merge, current WO is also very likely to become "the other epic". We may get some more content, but the most important what we need - new players - goes to the new cluster.

 

What about making the Steam cluster a sort of new Golden Valley with some skill and content limitations?

Remove premium from there completely. Their only expence would be deed and trader dinglins, if they so choose.

Not too big limitations, they should still get about 80% of the real deal. Maybe skills capped at 80, no moon metals and uniques, maybe something else.

 

But if they want to go full wurmian, if they want to enter the "old world", they need to buy the one way ticket to our cluster, where they can go premium. They can choose to remain free players here as well, but then there's still the skill cap.

 

Although, some analyst can probably estimate the number of "wtf I quit" threads when a player from the world of 1000 joins the world of 200 and can hear their own echo for half a day in all chats.

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3 hours ago, Rolf said:

Q6) Would we release both Freedom and Epic servers?
We'd start with a Freedom server and be ready to launch more. You will have to discuss moving the Epic server there but from what I gather it would help with some multi account issues and might be a good solution for that.

Can you expand on this rolf?


We have interested pvp parties involved

Edited by Olloch

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I don't see why the Steam players must start playing on a separate cluster.

Going on Steam it's an important step, can we finally unificate the game making something of great?

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yeah I'd rather see a GV situation for free and then opt to come to the "old world" for the real game.

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10 minutes ago, Shmeric said:

I guess my concern is what SmeJack pointed out. Without a merge, current WO is also very likely to become "the other epic". We may get some more content, but the most important what we need - new players - goes to the new cluster.

 

What about making the Steam cluster a sort of new Golden Valley with some skill and content limitations?

Remove premium from there completely. Their only expence would be deed and trader dinglins, if they so choose.

Not too big limitations, they should still get about 80% of the real deal. Maybe skills capped at 80, no moon metals and uniques, maybe something else.

 

But if they want to go full wurmian, if they want to enter the "old world", they need to buy the one way ticket to our cluster, where they can go premium. They can choose to remain free players here as well, but then there's still the skill cap.

 

Although, some analyst can probably estimate the number of "wtf I quit" threads when a player from the world of 1000 joins the world of 200 and can hear their own echo for half a day in all chats.

This. I am concerned about current wo becoming other epic..

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