Rolf

WO Steam Discussion

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16 minutes ago, Zibens said:

 


Yes.. My fustration is about the fact, that nobody told us, that they will not develop the WU, as they are developing WO. 

If i would know that, i would have never bought WU in first place.

The initial information was, that it's going to be WO on Private servers. Now it's what, basicly dumping everything on modders, for the game to have somewhat development.

 

Basicly, people were lured in, by having same Wurm Online, on private servers.

I feel betrayed, simple as that.

 

I fail to see what you are complaining about. You bought WU, maybe at the full price of 25€ or so, maybe not even that. Paid once and forever. You played there, got access to the whole WU world which you still have, with lots of updates from WO as well as from WU server administrators and developers. You even may play on your own server, as a god of your own world, obtaining ideas and mods from all around the WU community.

 

So what the damn are you complaining about? That you do not get further regular and continuous updates from WO for a game you paid only once? Are you serious?

 

As Samool stated, WU has not been abandoned. Even in the past, WU modders voiced dissatisfaction with the way updates were brought to WU, maybe the new ways can show to be even more adequate. Future will show.

Edited by Ekcin
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4 hours ago, Zibens said:

 


Yes.. My fustration is about the fact, that nobody told us, that they will not develop the WU, as they are developing WO. 

If i would know that, i would have never bought WU in first place.

The initial information was, that it's going to be WO on Private servers. Now it's what, basicly dumping everything on modders, for the game to have somewhat development.

 

Basicly, people were lured in, by having same Wurm Online, on private servers.

I feel betrayed, simple as that.

 

For all games development stops or greatly ramps down eventually, that's perfectly normal. They've given the game free updates for more than 4 years now. Most games these days are lucky to get 1-2 years of updates and even then a lot of it is in the form of DLC, yet with WU all updates have been free. As someone whom also owns WU I have no objections to future WO updates not making it to WU, I had honestly expected it to happen sooner.

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I've personally never asked for more free updates in any of my posts, and I find it rather rude and offensive even to make demands on indefinite updates where CC makes no profit. I've asked for ways to make WU profitable enough for updates, and made a few suggestions how it could be done. I know I can be pretty rough in my language and sometimes step on a few toes, but there's no ill will in it, only honest thoughts and feelings. I think it's more than fair, and a token of good will, to update WU with Ago's mod loader built into vanilla WU, and I think it will make a huge difference that servers can create client content without having to consider that a lot of players don't have the client mod loader installed.

 

WU will become a framework for modders to build upon, but there's nothing wrong with that.

Edited by Tenniel
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I have a few thoughts on this

 

1. So with the possible incoming ban of character transfers(and others rmt) in WO(when they eventually merge). Does not really have to be super enforced, people should still be able to do so, but just make it so that we can't do it on the forums.

 

2. A bit related to last. Remove all body stats requirement from combat. Weapon skills and Fighting skills = grindable. Body stats are not. This would perhaps remove the need the pvpers have to constantly buy new accounts?

 

3. Some sort of ground decay ?  Where dirt levels slowly go back to the original state. Deeds, paved roads, fences, highways would prevent this. What I mean is that at the edges of my deed there might be a 200+ dirt slope, due to us being weird and enjoying flat things. So when my deed eventually falls, fences, buildings, pavement has all decayed away, it will then slowly go back to its original state, giving the new player who arrives there 12 months later a sense of fresh terrain he can mold however he likes ?

 

4. New UI. I love the ui. Guy(s) who are making the new ui have played these games alot longer than I have. But be brave! We will adapt, make it something that does not look like it was made a few decades ago.

 

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41 minutes ago, Cenotaph said:

3. Some sort of ground decay ?  Where dirt levels slowly go back to the original state. Deeds, paved roads, fences, highways would prevent this. What I mean is that at the edges of my deed there might be a 200+ dirt slope, due to us being weird and enjoying flat things. So when my deed eventually falls, fences, buildings, pavement has all decayed away, it will then slowly go back to its original state, giving the new player who arrives there 12 months later a sense of fresh terrain he can mold however he likes ?

No.. 

Roads built on such terrain will also get messed up that way.. or places where you level things to make a forest or flat hunting ground or w/e of that sort.

Solution? Put a checkbox.. in deed settings... if a deed drops.. it leaves at place of token a monument of some sort.. which can not be taken or moved.. but could be removed by deeding over it, that way if somebody likes the state and shape of the terrain - they could reuse it..; this monument.. could have a range of 1-90 days set by the last deed's owner.. when to terraform the land and flatten the ground where last deed there was formed(coordinates and deed size is in db, kept for archaeology anyway; perimeter size could be taken also into account for lighter flattening of the terrain if needed)...
* not exactly polished.. but clears up the core idea.. how to keep things clean after a deed drops and not mess everything up in the world; whether this have soil in a sandbox.. I wouldn't mind it to be a thing

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On 11/13/2019 at 12:39 PM, Tenniel said:

I've personally never asked for more free updates in any of my posts, and I find it rather rude and offensive even to make demands on indefinite updates where CC makes no profit. I've asked for ways to make WU profitable enough for updates, and made a few suggestions how it could be done. I know I can be pretty rough in my language and sometimes step on a few toes, but there's no ill will in it, only honest thoughts and feelings. I think it's more than fair, and a token of good will, to update WU with Ago's mod loader built into vanilla WU, and I think it will make a huge difference that servers can create client content without having to consider that a lot of players don't have the client mod loader installed.

 

WU will become a framework for modders to build upon, but there's nothing wrong with that.

Made a post on Steam with similar thoughts - compared abandoned WU with Skyrim (a game I still love to play, since there are so many mod options that keep an 8 year old game alive and interesting.)

 

And if I read the latest news correctly, it seems they liked your suggestion of making Ago's mod loader a part of the basic game package. As a non-coder who always needs to go back and find the "instructions for dummies" every time I dive into WU after a few months of doing something else, that is one less impediment. And it you are actually planning on updating it, which will they include?

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Rolf...

 

I am a little late to this discussion, but I have a suggestion.

 

You mention that when WO is posted on Steam, an entirely new server will be available to new players. One of your arguments is that new players will appreciate a server where they can make a difference, without having to fall under the shadow of strongly established players. That is a solid idea. But what about in addition to the new server, we give new players a choice? In this scenario, new players who join us on Steam would be able to join the newly created server, or choose to join the existing, current servers.

 

This choice would be given to them at the start, with an explanation that if they want a fresh start experience, they should join the new server, but if they want an established world, with rich history and well established players, they should join the existing servers.

 

This way, we could spread the new population around. While it's reasonable to think that new Steam experience would be well achieved with a new, fresh server, I am willing to bet that a lot of new players will be drawn to the established lands instead. There is something to be said about history of the land as a feature, and about getting help from established players, which often a draw for new MMO arrivals.

 

After all, we have plenty of room on the current servers and spreading out the new population would serve well both the veterans and the future Steam arrivals.

 

Valdor

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I am in the camp that supports never merging WO Steam with OG WO.

 

The original game is not going anywhere and will always be available for players to join should they prefer a more developed world, it would certainly be a much easier game experience for a new player with established roads, guard towers, gear, etc.

 

On the flip side I think WO Steam should remain as a fresh perspective for those that prefer this type of experience. Merging the servers, even after one, two or three years, would be a taint on the fresh world because even a few years is not comparable to the 13 years (since going gold) of the skills, equipment, currency, etc. that would be brought over from original WO, skewing everything that the fresh world had established by that point.

 

Hopefully a definitive answer is given prior to launch so that I know if I will be subbing to WO Steam for a very long time, or not at all. Very much looking forward to a brave new world.

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On 11/13/2019 at 11:44 AM, Ekcin said:

 

I fail to see what you are complaining about. You bought WU, maybe at the full price of 25€ or so, maybe not even that. Paid once and forever. You played there, got access to the whole WU world which you still have, with lots of updates from WO as well as from WU server administrators and developers. You even may play on your own server, as a god of your own world, obtaining ideas and mods from all around the WU community.

 

So what the damn are you complaining about? That you do not get further regular and continuous updates from WO for a game you paid only once? Are you serious?

 

As Samool stated, WU has not been abandoned. Even in the past, WU modders voiced dissatisfaction with the way updates were brought to WU, maybe the new ways can show to be even more adequate. Future will show.

Not him but yes i am

WU should NOT be treated as a standalone game to begin with, but as an extension to WO

As for the game still getting regular updates, just look at Path of exile which is completely free to play and is still getting updated since 2013

You are going to develop the updates either way. How long would porting them over to WU take? 

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2 minutes ago, Satch said:

I am in the camp that supports never merging WO Steam with OG WO.

 

The original game is not going anywhere and will always be available for players to join should they prefer a more developed world, it would certainly be a much easier game experience for a new player with established roads, guard towers, gear, etc.

 

On the flip side I think WO Steam should remain as a fresh perspective for those that prefer this type of experience. Merging the servers, even after one, two or three years, would be a taint on the fresh world because even a few years is not comparable to the 13 years (since going gold) of the skills, equipment, currency, etc. that would be brought over from original WO, skewing everything that the fresh world had established by that point.

 

Hopefully a definitive answer is given prior to launch so that I know if I will be subbing to WO Steam for a very long time, or not at all. Very much looking forward to a brave new world.

 

Assume that your notion is carried through and a merge is ruled out.  Also assume that some WO players will move over (not many, but some, this is the best case scenario for the model by the way).

 

These WO players are EXCELLENT skillers, they are the diehards who know every dirty trick in the book to skill quickly; most of them lack RL jobs, and most of them are also fairly organised, so they can afford to specialise and skill 24/7.

 

A month passes, the player count drops like a rock (this happens with all steam hosted mmorpgs, it's just market saturation).

 

You are now left with a server where the diehard WO players run the economy (faster skilling and more time to skill), you've killed your original server (if we wanted to play on a dead server, we'd play WU), and absolutely nothing has changed.

 

So, in essence, you are already going to get the scenario you outline as undesirable, the only difference is that you're not going to have as many skilled players around to help people settle in, because they all cut their losses and moved to a legacy themed WU server.

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@Etherdrifter

Spoiler
19 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

 

Assume that your notion is carried through and a merge is ruled out.  Also assume that some WO players will move over (not many, but some, this is the best case scenario for the model by the way).

 

These WO players are EXCELLENT skillers, they are the diehards who know every dirty trick in the book to skill quickly; most of them lack RL jobs, and most of them are also fairly organised, so they can afford to specialise and skill 24/7.

 

A month passes, the player count drops like a rock (this happens with all steam hosted mmorpgs, it's just market saturation).

 

You are now left with a server where the diehard WO players run the economy (faster skilling and more time to skill), you've killed your original server (if we wanted to play on a dead server, we'd play WU), and absolutely nothing has changed.

 

So, in essence, you are already going to get the scenario you outline as undesirable, the only difference is that you're not going to have as many skilled players around to help people settle in, because they all cut their losses and moved to a legacy themed WU server.

Do you have proof to back your words..  about that dirty tricks, 24/7 and how wurm's: subscription based game's customers are job-less and so on...

 

If not.. and your name or words worth anything.. fix your pumped up on air post a bit

ty

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18 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

 

...  Also assume that some WO players will move over (not many, but some, this is the best case scenario for the model by the way).

These WO players are EXCELLENT skillers, they are the diehards who know every dirty trick in the book to skill quickly; .., so they can afford to specialise and skill 24/7.

That will happen. And it will happen that such players, as far as they long for, will grab a huge share of the steam WO markets. Their power may even be stronger than on original WO due to less equally skilled competitors.

 

The only thing limiting it are the RMT restrictions on steam. So those players may either fill their steam wallet with their profits, or choose less legal ways. One will see.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

A month passes, the player count drops like a rock (this happens with all steam hosted mmorpgs, it's just market saturation).

Well, player count will drop to some extent for sure. If the WO steam experiment works, numbers will stay. One will see.

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

 

Assume that your notion is carried through and a merge is ruled out.  Also assume that some WO players will move over (not many, but some, this is the best case scenario for the model by the way).

 

These WO players are EXCELLENT skillers, they are the diehards who know every dirty trick in the book to skill quickly; most of them lack RL jobs, and most of them are also fairly organised, so they can afford to specialise and skill 24/7.

 

A month passes, the player count drops like a rock (this happens with all steam hosted mmorpgs, it's just market saturation).

 

You are now left with a server where the diehard WO players run the economy (faster skilling and more time to skill), you've killed your original server (if we wanted to play on a dead server, we'd play WU), and absolutely nothing has changed.

 

So, in essence, you are already going to get the scenario you outline as undesirable, the only difference is that you're not going to have as many skilled players around to help people settle in, because they all cut their losses and moved to a legacy themed WU server.


wurm always was player driven economy, dominated by highend accounts and near abusing alts (for bulk materials)....

 

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1 hour ago, Finnn said:

@Etherdrifter

  Reveal hidden contents

Do you have proof to back your words..  about that dirty tricks, 24/7 and how wurm's: subscription based game's customers are job-less and so on...

 

If not.. and your name or words worth anything.. fix your pumped up on air post a bit

ty

@Finn

 

Source : (https://forum.wurmonline.com)
 

I'm not being paid to educate you.  Here are a few search tips (because I believe in charity):

  • Search for skilling guides that include non-conventional uses of mechanics ("dirty" tricks)
  • Look up wurm's policy on account sharing (24/7 skilling)
  • Seriously, read up on the playerbase XD (Wurm's whale demographic includes a fair few retired folks)

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31 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

Search for skilling guides that include non-conventional uses of mechanics ("dirty" tricks)

link pls

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5 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

 

Assume that your notion is carried through and a merge is ruled out.  Also assume that some WO players will move over (not many, but some, this is the best case scenario for the model by the way).

 

These WO players are EXCELLENT skillers, they are the diehards who know every dirty trick in the book to skill quickly; most of them lack RL jobs, and most of them are also fairly organised, so they can afford to specialise and skill 24/7.

 

A month passes, the player count drops like a rock (this happens with all steam hosted mmorpgs, it's just market saturation).

 

You are now left with a server where the diehard WO players run the economy (faster skilling and more time to skill), you've killed your original server (if we wanted to play on a dead server, we'd play WU), and absolutely nothing has changed.

 

So, in essence, you are already going to get the scenario you outline as undesirable, the only difference is that you're not going to have as many skilled players around to help people settle in, because they all cut their losses and moved to a legacy themed WU server.

 

I don't recall saying anything about having a problem with experienced players playing WO Steam, that is to be fully expected.

 

You are counting on quite a few assumptions to all play out for your scenario to come true.  It's easy to say "well what if this, this, this, this and this all happen" and then write up a dire ending. I do not think WO Steam will fail, so I'm far from worried about your doomsday scenario.

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Quite honestly I've been reading this thread from the beginning. I still fail to see what the "big selling point" is going to be for the new version on steam. What's the value proposition that will get people to buy the new game?

 

So far I have read a lot of potential downside:

 

- Crash of remaining WO population

- Cutting loose WU/loss of player trust/bad steam reviews on launch

- Breaking commitments made to players on both sides (no more updates for WU, no more new servers will be added for WO)

 

So if even one of these things is likely, what's the upside that makes the risk outlined above worth it?

Edited by Nappy
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So far many of the dangers already happened. Players have left in expectancy of the steam move, and because of the possible end of RMT on existing servers as well (certainly there will be no legal RMT on steam). These are sad losses, hopefully offset by the gains of the servers newly to open. And hopefully WO will recover a bit until the start of the steam version. I do not expect many users leaving after the steam version having gone live though.

 

If it goes well, CC/GC may win a number of new subs, and some steam users, having heard of WO first time, may even consider to break out of the steam prison and log in/subscribe on the original servers. After all, there are over 15 million ppl logged on to steam everyday.

 

Of course everything can fail, and Wurm can die. So far, I do not yet see that happening.

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4 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

@Finn

I'm not being paid to educate you.

 

if youre throwing around ridiculous claims you should be prepared to back them up with evidence

 

XD

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He's right, he's having a few posts about being a freeloader and only foraging for premium.
It's true he can not educate me.. I can't think of a thing I'd like to learn from him.

* "dirty tricks" are more likely to be.. metas.. like how you .... and .. and ... every time somebody mentions them on the forums - posts get deleted.. most of these never get fixed for who knows what reasons...

What you call 'dirty tricks' is simple common knowledge.. of the game once you play it for a bit.. you learn how to do things right, and the other way around.. wu code to speed up your grinds(by finding clues what works best)

 

24/7 only a few characters are like that.. I'd not put a tag for it.. not worth for the 2-3 accounts, let it become a thing.. than name it.

 

Honestly.. most people I know are in the 20-30s or a bit higher but.. retired and job-less.. c'mon.. no, still I'd imagine the game having way over 50% of people with jobs, making the job-less a minority %, and therefore hardly.. could call a whole community that way.

Air.

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4 hours ago, happysad said:

 

if youre throwing around ridiculous claims you should be prepared to back them up with evidence

 

XD

There is a difference between "casting pearls before swine", so to speak, and not being willing to offer evidence.  Finn is generally not worth replying to.  You on the other hand...

 

"Truth is proof" - Here are my observations.  They are my rationale.

 

https://jenn001.game.wurmonline.com/mrtg/paying.html - Proof of decline in existing player base after announcement.  Do note, so far the "doomsaying" has been correct in terms of predicting continued decline.  It also seems it was correct about the state of the game (see Rolf's initial post).

 

Jackal was the case for the hyper-grind "meta" as some people call it (bug abuse 101, since I've seen a lot of "meta" patched out in my time).  No long term stats there, but I am sure you can data mine it.  Also see release/pristine early days (last fresh start server, if you were around for that you'd know exactly how it panned out).

 

Read this thread (and others) for existing player opinion as to whether they will go for steam.  So far, it's not looking good according to the forum survey, and most folks I know in-game are prepping to move on.  Could be different for you, but then your evidence is no better than mine there.

 

The steam boom/bust phenomenon is documented.  Each mmorpg gets its server baked in the first week or two, the game then dies down as the next one comes along.  It retains a small share of players, though I have not seen a subscription mmorpg prosper.

 

So far, my only "assumption" is that it will be an existing WO group that will dominate, and that largely relies on the release/pristine observations.

 

Demographic, I will admit, may have overreached.  Most of the folks I know on wurm are either semi retired, or "between jobs".  Could be my sample was just very skewed.

 

So....  Where is the evidence for the counter point?  How, exactly, is WOS going to compete with WU in any way or form?  Where is the evidence that this competition strategy will be effective?  How has driving off long term players helped?  When WOS opens up, how can you be sure it won't be compared to WU and found lacking?  What argument is there for a fresh start server that hasn't already been disproved by the player base's abandonment of Jackal?

 

Feel free to provide some evidence, I'll wait.

Edited by Etherdrifter
Removing some snark

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Feels like some people forget that RMT will not be a thing on the Steam Servers.

 

What market is there to dominate or worth to be dominated in whatever way if there is no real gain for those people who so far dominated markets.

I assume their biggest motivation to date was to make silver and turn that into RL money.

 

With that reason being gone, money will only go into the game, sure people could dominate the market but the silver would just pile up and pay their deed costs and maybe some subs but then?

Unless ofc they sell it by shady means... which risks a ban.

I am sure CC would raise an eyebrow if silver (specially larger sums) is transfered without any evidence of a product or service being offered in return.

 

Not saying there wont be people who with the right skillset can "dominate" a market, but that happens all the time in any MMO that starts fresh and is just worse in MMOs where "clean servers" are launched cause people have a vast amount of how-to knowledge by then.

(even though in Wurm I would have a hard time to pick a skill or two to master first, maybe Blacksmithing or whatever but there is so many good and required skills to make good stuff!)

 

I don't see it as a big deal with RMT being removed from those servers and new people interested would just get a small glimpse by that then  as to how it is on the older WO servers,

it is an aspect of the game.

 

And if someone is afraid of new people not getting the same amount of help, I am sure there will be a CA chat where people can ask stuff and I am sure there will be plenty of vets who want this to succeed for the greater good of Wurm and help out a fair bit too (I will anyhow if the chance happens).

 

And if you consider spoiling new people with free armor, weapons or great tools they could not get there until later on "help to make them stay or interested" - why would a new person seriously want that aside from the current way MMOs work? QUICK to the endgame! And then? Quit the game.

People, also new ones, should enjoy the time they spend here... if they need high end equipment to do so then they wont last very long to begin with. 😕

Wurmians are a very special kind of people (not in a bad way either, we just have a acquired taste ^_^ ), I think that was established by now, it will always be a niché game - I just wish the population was more stable, that steady decline in the graph makes me sad.

Maybe burnout, other adventures, who knows... not like Wurm has a "Cancel the Subscription" and then gives the person who cancels the sub a chance to give feedback of why they do.

Then again the forums have plenty of posts of why people leave, but gathering that information... well idk if anyone does, but I don't envy that job.

 

I hope Wurm gets it's act together, polishes up in a decent way with the new UI and remains among the living for a long time, my mains sub is still going even if I only play 4-5 Months of a year, simply because Wurm - even with the ton of sandbox games out there - is still a very unique game.

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1 hour ago, Milkdrop said:

Feels like some people forget that RMT will not be a thing on the Steam Servers.

 

What market is there to dominate or worth to be dominated in whatever way if there is no real gain for those people who so far dominated markets.

I assume their biggest motivation to date was to make silver and turn that into RL money.

 

 

It might be possible to buy/sell silver on the steam marketplace, if so then you could use that money to buy a lot of other games, which you'd normally buy using RL money. The net effect for those people would be the same, but the group that might be interested in it could indeed be quite a bit smaller.

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1 hour ago, Ecrir said:

 

It might be possible to buy/sell silver on the steam marketplace, if so then you could use that money to buy a lot of other games, which you'd normally buy using RL money. The net effect for those people would be the same, but the group that might be interested in it could indeed be quite a bit smaller.

We aren't looking at that at this stage. 

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1 hour ago, Ecrir said:

 

It might be possible to buy/sell silver on the steam marketplace, if so then you could use that money to buy a lot of other games, which you'd normally buy using RL money. The net effect for those people would be the same, but the group that might be interested in it could indeed be quite a bit smaller.

Don't need any other games so no thanks

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