Rolf

WO Steam Discussion

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How many players can a server reasonably support? No more than 1000 players, if there's a limit of say 200-300 playing at once, if we account for time zones and not everyone playing 24/7. The WO Steam servers couldn't handle more players than that. Just making some speculative estimations. Or are the WO Steam servers expected to be rebuilt for handling the capacity of thousands of players?

 

WU could at the time of writing support perhaps 50 servers with 200 players each, that's max 10 000 players online at the same time, that's max capacity. There are about 200 servers online of which many are locked, so perhaps a bit more could be allowed, but it's not that many players after all. To support more players new servers would have to be started. For WU to reasonably have the capacity to support income for CC, WU would need much more cooperation between servers, much less competition, or no competition at all. There can't be competition for players, servers must pull new players, not compete for existing. The standard of the WU servers must be much higher, as to attract new players in greater numbers.

 

Also, creating new maps must be as easy as pressing a button, today it's too difficult for most players to start their own server. Installing and handling mods is too difficult for many players, it should be as easy as pressing a button. Currently I'm working on a new client mod launcher, which extends Ago's launcher, and builds on the UI of the server browser, with UI for installing client mods, and having different mods profiles. Alas, I have a full time employment, normal 40h work weeks, so such development is a bit slow. I'd be happy to make the projekt open source in a git-repo.

Edited by Tenniel

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5 hours ago, Ronnie said:

we also  have to remember, if 10,000 of that 300,000+ WU owners decide to try out the steam release

 

I'm sure they'll be ecstatic to try out a new version of wurm after they learn that CodeClub abandoned the previous version of the same game that's already on steam lol

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19 minutes ago, bdew said:

 

I'm sure they'll be ecstatic to try out a new version of wurm after they learn that CodeClub abandoned the previous version of the same game that's already on steam lol

I think there's quite a difference between the MMO version and the spinoff private server version. 

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2 hours ago, Retrograde said:

I think there's quite a difference between the MMO version and the spinoff private server version. 

 

No, and i'd say it's probably worse. Asking players to invest time and money into an MMO and then starting by abandoning a different version of that game (and on the same platform) is not a good marketing strategy i think.

Edited by bdew
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2 hours ago, Retrograde said:

I think there's quite a difference between the MMO version and the spinoff private server version. 

 

The games are different but what people look for is the attitude of the company behind it. If you abandon a product on Steam when the player base doesn't agree it's done and finished, they will get mad (justifiably so) and they will loudly let everyone know who gets near any of your other products.

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2 hours ago, Retrograde said:

I think there's quite a difference between the MMO version and the spinoff private server version. 

I don't think the difference is that big, especially when comparing the numbers of concurrent players on each WO server vs. the popular WU servers.

Fix the bugs in WU as promised.

 

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39 minutes ago, Ricowan said:

Fix the bugs in WU as promised.

 

It's not just bugs, Rolf clearly promised that money coming from WU will be used to develop both games and now they decided to break that promise after they have the money...

 

On 9/25/2015 at 1:11 PM, Rolf said:
  • The code base is pretty much the same and WO will remain the main development focus, with updates coming to WO and WU. The money from WU goes to code club so if we hire more staff it will benefit WO.
Edited by bdew
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How many players can a server reasonably support? No more than 1000 players, if there's a limit of say 200-300 playing at once, if we account for time zones and not everyone playing 24/7. The WO Steam servers couldn't handle more players than that.

 

As to the babbles about no 300 players at a time: The 1000 players refer to accounts on one server, 4000 in sum on Freedom, 5900 on all servers, We had over 600 players on Xanadu during public unique hunts more than once, and Xanadu is not just famous for top performance, but did neither break nor unsustainably lag even then (the burden was rather on the clients with hundreds of players in an area). During Impalongs on Xanadu and Independence we also had in excess of 300 participants more than once. So please do not spread FUD.

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3 hours ago, Retrograde said:

I think there's quite a difference between the MMO version and the spinoff private server version. 

 

A product is a product is a product.

 

Not particularly beating myself up over it, but a small part of me regrets paying full price "to support CC" when buying WU instead of waiting for the $1 version to happen.  I repeat my earlier statement that I kinda hope that modders start finding ways to obfuscate their code so that CC has to "code its own".

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By the way, upgraded GPU recently.  

 

It runs FFXIV on full high no problem, yet struggles with Wurm and I haven't even blasted all the settings to their highest.  

The ideas, the skilling system, the trials and errors, all that is there.  Jagex gave up on Java for a reason.  I think a rewrite IS in order at this point.  Hell, a rewrite BEFORE launching on Steam imho.

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3 hours ago, Retrograde said:

I think there's quite a difference between the MMO version and the spinoff private server version. 

 

The main problem is that Wurm Online is sticking to a plan which was made 2004. While wurm was fun back then, the grindy concept is outdated nowadays. Which made it easy for modders to bring parts of Wurm into 2019 and people enjoy it a lot more than WO.

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2 minutes ago, Mordraug said:

By the way, upgraded GPU recently.  

 

It runs FFXIV on full high no problem, yet struggles with Wurm and I haven't even blasted all the settings to their highest.  

The ideas, the skilling system, the trials and errors, all that is there.  Jagex gave up on Java for a reason.  I think a rewrite IS in order at this point.  Hell, a rewrite BEFORE launching on Steam imho.

 

I wouldn't say Java is the main problem. Java actually is the most famous programming language world wide for reasons but you are right the engine is just pushed over certain limits.

Getting something new could be a solution to this problem but I am not an expert with rendering and such stuff. Still there is a problem for sure while things become worse each update.

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23 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

 

As to the babbles about no 300 players at a time: The 1000 players refer to accounts on one server, 4000 in sum on Freedom, 5900 on all servers, We had over 600 players on Xanadu during public unique hunts more than once, and Xanadu is not just famous for top performance, but did neither break nor unsustainably lag even then (the burden was rather on the clients with hundreds of players in an area). During Impalongs on Xanadu and Independence we also had in excess of 300 participants more than once. So please do not spread FUD.

 

LOL.  This sounds like the FUD to me (or whatever is the opposite of FUD).   *smiles sweetly*

Edited by Amadee

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4 hours ago, bdew said:

 

I'm sure they'll be ecstatic to try out a new version of wurm after they learn that CodeClub abandoned the previous version of the same game that's already on steam lol

This makes me wonder if they have considered the ramifications of this decision at product launch if even 0.1% of those 300,000 abandoned WU owners decide to point out the broken promises? Many, many other games have experienced this type of thing when launching a new product on steam after making a decision to abandon an old one. Usually this doesn't go well for the developers.

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There is no intention to spread any FUD in my posts and I've clearly stated the numbers were speculative. Still 300-600 max capacity isn't very much for one server.

 

Anyway, java isn't really the problem, but the servers aren't optimized. With optimized code C or java wouldn't matter. A lot of the code relies on bulky iterations, which isn't a problem doing once but with many levels of bulky iterations it becomes a problem. Java could easily use native code for performance operations, but optimizing the java code should improve performance a lot.

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2 hours ago, Sklo:D said:

 

The main problem is that Wurm Online is sticking to a plan which was made 2004. While wurm was fun back then, the grindy concept is outdated nowadays. Which made it easy for modders to bring parts of Wurm into 2019 and people enjoy it a lot more than WO.

Maybe yes, but mostly wu is free once you've done the initial investment to buy it.. not to mention the 1$ copies that make the game 'absolutely free'. That's the main reason players prefer wu, mods and kiddy stuff sure.. they love the gps. 'qols' and other metas.

 

Problem of wurm is that it does not want to be a business and to make money.. it's not like it can't be all that.

 

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10 minutes ago, Finnn said:

That's the main reason players prefer wu, mods and kiddy stuff sure.. they love the gps. 'qols' and other metas.

 

Yep.  When I log into WO after playing WU, it's so tedious I have to log back out after a short time.  I feel like I'm trying to play handicapped, half blind, and bogged down in mud.  So then imagine the people who own WU, already tried it, and found it too slow, grindy, and tedious.  Hard to imagine any of those people enjoying WO. 

 

Oh, and nothing wrong with "kiddy stuff."  hehe.  It is a game after all.   You don't stop playing because you get old, you get old when you stop playing.  :)

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2 hours ago, Sklo:D said:

The main problem is that Wurm Online is sticking to a plan which was made 2004.

 

There have been countless significant changes to Wurm since 2004. Do you know what action timers were like in the Wurm beta?

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3 hours ago, Mordraug said:

By the way, upgraded GPU recently.  

 

It runs FFXIV on full high no problem, yet struggles with Wurm and I haven't even blasted all the settings to their highest.  

The ideas, the skilling system, the trials and errors, all that is there.  Jagex gave up on Java for a reason.  I think a rewrite IS in order at this point.  Hell, a rewrite BEFORE launching on Steam imho.

 

A rewrite is unrealistic, that would take years with a small full time dev team. That long without any content is pretty unrealistic for a game with a small and dwindling player base. Jagex could afford it.

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1 hour ago, Amadee said:

 

Yep.  When I log into WO after playing WU, it's so tedious I have to log back out after a short time.  I feel like I'm trying to play handicapped, half blind, and bogged down in mud.  So then imagine the people who own WU, already tried it, and found it too slow, grindy, and tedious.  Hard to imagine any of those people enjoying WO. 

 

Oh, and nothing wrong with "kiddy stuff."  hehe.  It is a game after all.   You don't stop playing because you get old, you get old when you stop playing.  :)

I agree with you about WU servers that are 1x + compared to WO especially if they have some QOL mods running.

 

For WU running at 1x or less like 0.5x I have to admit that WO seems like easy mode then!

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1 minute ago, Ecrir said:

 

A rewrite is unrealistic, that would take years with a small full time dev team. That long without any content is pretty unrealistic for a game with a small and dwindling player base. Jagex could afford it.

Actually, I think Wurm is pretty well written java, there's absolutely no reason to rewrite the game. In my real job, I'm working with 20 years old java code, and often I recall Wurm at work thinking "I wish it was as well written as Wurm". Oh well. Optimizing bottlenecks would go a long way I think.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Nappy said:

I agree with you about WU servers that are 1x + compared to WO especially if they have some QOL mods running.

 

For WU running at 1x or less like 0.5x I have to admit that WO seems like easy mode then!

Well, the issue I have with WO is the lack of choice of player style. Whether you like fast or slow game play is irrelevant, but what is relevant is the option for players to choose a game style that fits them. When I talk to the players on my server, this is what they express too. I've not heard anyone yet say that they wouldn't pay for WU expansions, some wholeheartedly dislike subscriptions and the WO game economy of buying silver, and though I can understand that, it's not really an issue for me from a personal viewpoint, but more from a philosophical, but in the end it's a matter of choice and personal preference. This is where WO becomes a burden, it becomes an enforced game style - play this way or play another game. WU offers opportunity to build your own worlds, your own game styles. Some servers focus on architecture, others on adventure, then again others on role play; for sure, you can do a lot of that on WO too, but you won't find specialized niche servers. I mean, I read the Wheel of Time series for the second time, and just felt like creating a world inspired by the books; wrote down a world story, created cultures and religions, and invited players to co-expand on that story line. WO does not offer that kind of creativity, and I think that's what's attracting a lot of players to WU, because without context, without community, without a "depth" in the game, it only becomes a set of game mechanics and nothing more. What people want is immersion, to feel that you are in another world and the feeling that it's almost real. Wurm offers that, but it could easily become just a dictatorship of game mechanics.

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3 hours ago, Tenniel said:

There is no intention to spread any FUD in my posts and I've clearly stated the numbers were speculative. Still 300-600 max capacity isn't very much for one server.

 

Ok, in this case I misunderstood you, my apologies. And I agree so far that a too weak server could pose a problem on steam when the one server of the game each  for PvE/PvP is overrun especially with hundreds or more of "free" players in the beginning. Maybe the steam move should offer an "open beta phase" or so that the team can learn and adapt as well especially in case the steam move shows promise for a success. Players are ways more tolerant in beta settings where they simply expect things going wrong and being subject of change.

 

3 hours ago, Tenniel said:

Anyway, java isn't really the problem, but the servers aren't optimized. With optimized code C or java wouldn't matter. A lot of the code relies on bulky iterations, which isn't a problem doing once but with many levels of bulky iterations it becomes a problem. Java could easily use native code for performance operations, but optimizing the java code should improve performance a lot.

 

I can't say much about, could well be that way.

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14 hours ago, Sklo:D said:

 

Why should 10.000 people try out WO Steam? Especially if they own WU which is completely free forever if you got a copy of it 

WoSteam will be free to try as WO here.. that's why.. it's completely free to check the game.. so why would a curious gamer skip the game than?

We'll wait and see, speculating isn't going to get us anywhere... analytics... that's another topic.. but.. we're not talking about that, right.

Imagine a santa imp making a few gg screenshots.. with the new graphics update.. slapping that in the preview for the game.. of submitting that as player content.. how is that not going to pull a few eyeballs toward the game..

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1 hour ago, Tenniel said:

Well, the issue I have with WO is the lack of choice of player style. Whether you like fast or slow game play is irrelevant, but what is relevant is the option for players to choose a game style that fits them. When I talk to the players on my server, this is what they express too. I've not heard anyone yet say that they wouldn't pay for WU expansions, some wholeheartedly dislike subscriptions and the WO game economy of buying silver, and though I can understand that, it's not really an issue for me from a personal viewpoint, but more from a philosophical, but in the end it's a matter of choice and personal preference. This is where WO becomes a burden, it becomes an enforced game style - play this way or play another game. WU offers opportunity to build your own worlds, your own game styles. Some servers focus on architecture, others on adventure, then again others on role play; for sure, you can do a lot of that on WO too, but you won't find specialized niche servers. I mean, I read the Wheel of Time series for the second time, and just felt like creating a world inspired by the books; wrote down a world story, created cultures and religions, and invited players to co-expand on that story line. WO does not offer that kind of creativity, and I think that's what's attracting a lot of players to WU, because without context, without community, without a "depth" in the game, it only becomes a set of game mechanics and nothing more. What people want is immersion, to feel that you are in another world and the feeling that it's almost real. Wurm offers that, but it could easily become just a dictatorship of game mechanics.

I couldn't agree with you more if I tried. WU is where things are tried and experimented upon. WO is rigid in comparison.

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Hardcore grinding games, like Wurm is dying. 

If you want to be on a sinking ship, keep on sailing.

 

If you need an example, look at Runescape. New runescape is a joke of grind in comparison to the old one.

The truth is, wurm must adapt to the new generation of gaming, in order to survive.

 

Wurm is fun, the way it is, WHEN there are enough players, but it has not been for ages now.

You talk about new players?  What you expect the new players to see? You expect new players to see this "exciting" combat? You expect non-hardcore grinding players to sit hours at the forge, improving that good old cauldron full with needles?

I've spoken with dozen ex-wurmians, what all of them said is the same. Game got boring. You keep sitting at that forge improving your needles (which you will dump afterwards, anyways), just to get that skill to 70.

The time you spent doing that, basicly burned you through, and you got sick of it.

There are few dozen of players who enjoy doing that. Good luck running MMO, with that limited of a playerbase.

 

 

Seeing some posts about the "major updates", new content, i'm shocked...

Tell me, what update was so major? New textures? New furniture? New sounds? Sheesh.. 


Wurm Unlimited is MUCH greater than Wurm Online. Passionate server owners developing their plugins, implementing new stuff into the game, for the fun of it.

They are doing it not for the profit, but for the sake of content. There is an actual development involved in the servers. Some i've found way more fun than WO.

Stop trying to pour the water out of a sinking ship, fix the holes, before doing so.

 

 

 

Edited by Zibens
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