Rolf

WO Steam Discussion

Recommended Posts

 

25 minutes ago, MightySheep said:

Player run servers will always lack the reliability and consistency of 'official' servers and throwing random names out won't change that. Wyvern used to be considered the 'main' WU server with the most players until it randomly shut down out of the blue.

That's just an assumption, MightySheep, which you base on throwing another random name, which won't change the fact that it depends entirely on who is running the server. The Wurm Online servers aren't entirely stable either.

 

Many WU server hosts also guarantee their players character transfers in the case that they are forced to shut the server down, so that they may continue on another server. For example, I've been running my server for a year, before that I had another server which was closed because of internal conflicts - we were two individuals starting the server and had a disagreement and split in two directions, it was very unfortunate but the player base were able to continue in either direction with skills intact.

 

Any players joining my server Awakening are guaranteed a continuous Wurm Unlimited experience with regular updates every two weeks or so.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean, of course you're going to disagree because you're running a server lol. I gave Wyvern as an example because it was the #1 server for a long time, there have been plenty of others. I don't see how you having to split your server in half because of internal conflict is a good example to refute the reliability and consistency issues I was talking about :rolleyes:. How can you "guarantee" character transfers since most servers are very different and have different rates of XP? and at the end of the day you're still just a player yourself so how is a "guarantee" of reliability is supposed to impress someone who's never met you? At least from a company it has weight to it. You know they won't just get bored and leave one day as WU server hosts do. 

 

I'd still play any decently populated WU PvP server for sure, I don't necessarily have any issue with losing my progress once I've stopped playing but I can easily see why a lot of people would. It's always been one of the main advantages WO has over WU.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, Wyvern actually has been continued as the Revenant server, and is run by Sindusk - as far as I know. I don't know what happened to the characters of the Wyvern server though, but your example of Wyvern does have its lacks.

 

My example, stands to show the reliability towards the player base, they can entrust their time and effort in the server, their work will be persistent in that sense.

 

I have no plans on shutting down my server, but let's say I suddenly get ill or something happens that makes it impossible to host a server, then I would entrust the running of the server in the hands of someone I trust. Companies doesn't necessarily have that much weight, more often companies go bankrupt than individuals, and quite often companies in the gaming industry doesn't survive. Individuals may on the other hand keep their hobbies and passions for life. So, you see my friend, you are still only making assumptions based on some ideals, and I disagree.

 

In my case, I developed a MMORPG for many years, it was really very much alike Wurm, except I was working on it alone and it was pixel graphics because I've got no 3D modelling skills, only programming. I still worked on that game for perhaps seven years without ever releasing it, because it was just so difficult to do everything myself. With Wurm Unlimited I can continue the passion of game development, without being limited by not being very good at 3D modelling. For me, it's an art form, but perhaps you can't relate to that, what do I know?

Edited by Tenniel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The nice thing about WU public servers are that there are so many choices of *playstyles* available upon them. As they are all (mostly) basically charitable donations created for others enjoyment players need to face the obvious that they can be closed at any time and yet even with this there are the few that have remained many years. The worry warts that fear the unknown can always play on a few as backups or even just move to another if their favorite only one goes down.

 

Many that I have played on also seem to be a lot more actively social than the WO servers too but for long term maybe, perhaps, hopefully will be there throughout the years nothing beats WO with its one style take it or leave it grin and bear it playstyle.

 

=Ayes=

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What are the typical resources for a linux machine to run one without hiccups with 20-50/+ players anyway?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Finnn said:

What are the typical resources for a linux machine to run one without hiccups with 20-50/+ players anyway?

 

 

I found this thread, seems relevant:

 

 

 

 

From Bdew's response:

 

In general, from my experience:

 

Forget about 8k or 16k maps if you want a lag free game. Even CC can't manage that (see: Xanadu).

 

In general you are better off running multiple smaller maps as a cluster than one huge map.

 

  • RAM - You need less than 1 GB for a 1024 map, ~2GB for a 2048 map, ~5GB for a 4096. That's only for the server process, not including the OS and other stuff.
  • CPU - Get the best single core performance you can, server is mostly single threaded
  • SSD - Must have for a 4096 map with reasonable creature counts. Nice to have for 2048 maps. read/write throughput mostly does nothing, latency is the main problem (so you are better off with a cheapo SSD than a very expensive "enterprise" magnetic drive).
Edited by Brash_Endeavors

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, MightySheep said:

Player run servers will always lack the reliability and consistency of 'official' servers and throwing random names out won't change that. Wyvern used to be considered the 'main' WU server with the most players until it randomly shut down out of the blue.

 

I hope you do realize Wurm Online can and will go poof the moment their new corporate overlords decide it's not making (enough) money and they don't feel like spending more on it. And at that point WU servers is all the wurm you will have left.

 

Much bigger and more successful MMOs have closed down AC, SWG, WAR, CoH, Landmark, Wildstar, Tabula Rasa... alll those MMOs have been way more successful than WO at their peak, and are now gone. Many of those communities have spent countless manhours trying to recreate their lost beloved game in various emulator projects... I bet many of them would kill for something like WU that would allow people to run private servers after the official game went under.

 

 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bdew said:

 

I hope you do realize Wurm Online can and will go poof the moment their new corporate overlords decide it's not making (enough) money and they don't feel like spending more on it. And at that point WU servers is all the wurm you will have left.

 

That is not necessarily the case. I am not sure that even if the game is not economically viable anymore, Rolf will let his life project go titsup. There would still be the possibility to let the code go open source, and let WO survive as a community driven project. As such it could survive on covering the server cost only, and maybe one or two part time developers/admins.

 

But at the moment there is nothing like this in sight. Rather, the WO steam move may make WO more known to  a wider audience. PR to the general public has been shamefully nonexistant in the past years, so WO could only tap at the set of old/former players and their kin and acquaintances. This pool is under natural decline as people grow up, get absorbed by job, family etc., give up gaming and so on. There is still influx of new people (e.g. me) though, but not enough. Steam with its participation of some hundred million people may change that (though I do not think one should solely rely on that).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

 

That is not necessarily the case. I am not sure that even if the game is not economically viable anymore, Rolf will let his life project go titsup. There would still be the possibility to let the code go open source, and let WO survive as a community driven project. As such it could survive on covering the server cost only, and maybe one or two part time developers/admins.

 

Still skill, maps and all the progress would likely be lost forever, I doubt they would release all the game data giving another company the chance to make a lot money with their work. It wouldn't take a week until someone booted up all servers again and offers premium subscriptions.

Plus in europe we got a new copyright law which could (maybe) forbid releasing player data. 

 

So if Wurm Online dies what would someone do with the source code? The source code is already in WU, and you can have custom servers there, so the use of a Wurm Online custom server is small.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Sklo:D said:

Still skill, maps and all the progress would likely be lost forever, I doubt they would release all the game data giving another company the chance to make a lot money with their work. It wouldn't take a week until someone booted up all servers again and offers premium subscriptions.

Plus in europe we got a new copyright law which could (maybe) forbid releasing player data. 

So if Wurm Online dies what would someone do with the source code? The source code is already in WU, and you can have custom servers there, so the use of a Wurm Online custom server is small.

This could easily be solved by a dev/admin takeover making WO a non profit,  maybe foundation based enterprise relying on premium and donations. Ryzom was saved by former developers that way. As to the legal situation, player data are not covered by european data privacy legislation as far as they do not contain real life data, and they do not (except voluntary disclosures in profiles etc. which are in the responsibility of users).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

This could easily be solved by a dev/admin takeover making WO a non profit,  maybe foundation based enterprise relying on premium and donations. Ryzom was saved by former developers that way. As to the legal situation, player data are not covered by european data privacy legislation as far as they do not contain real life data, and they do not (except voluntary disclosures in profiles etc. which are in the responsibility of users).

 

Which happened how many times in the history of MMO shutdowns?
 

And i'm sure each of them had devs passionate about the game living on too, but they weren't in a position to get something like that approved... and neither will rolf be by the time that day comes.

 

Edit: I'm just going to leave this here - https://www.pcgamer.com/a-fully-functioning-city-of-heroes-private-server-has-somehow-been-kept-secret-for-six-years/

Edited by bdew

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand that you are advertising for your WU servers. But trying to cannibalize WO by spreading FUD won't be helpful while a flourishing WO would. Doom prophecies are certainly not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

I understand that you are advertising for your WU servers. But trying to cannibalize WO by spreading FUD won't be helpful while a flourishing WO would. Doom prophecies are certainly not.

 

I think what we want to point out is that WO is not more stable or reliable than WU in general.

Edited by Sklo:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Asheron's Call is a perfect example of what is likely to happen. It's the ONLY mmo that came close to actually releasing a dying game back to its own community. Developers who loved the game and loved the community tried their very best to make it possible for players to run officially approved private servers of the game as it neared the end of its lifecycle.  They even went to far as to "promise" the community that it was in the works. But alas, that is not how things work in " the real business world":  WB goes back on promise about Asheron's Call - shuts down PhatAC emulation project

 

Companies that own gaming IPs have not and will not ever give that code back to the players. They won't even "sell" the game back to the community for it to bring back without corporate help. No matter how much Rolf wants to see Wurm live on forever, he gave up the right to have ANY final say in that, when he sold the majority shares for Wurm to a profit-centered mobile game company. 

 

It seems logicial if a company can no longer make money off a game, they might at least sell the game back to the community for it to revive however they can, but in -every- case where this was tried, company lawyers refused to allow it and refused any offers by the community to crowdfund a fan-financed release.  Now, the only "good" news for these games is that there are some illegally run private servers for various former MMOs that are running emulated versions of their games anyway. helped perhaps by "leaks" from sympathetic former developers.  But, Asheron's Call was the closest any MMO community has ever gotten to having a once popular MMO released back to its fanbase after some company decided it no longer wanted to run even barebones maintenance-mode servers.  And of course, even once the private server emulators popped up later, thanks to leaked code, all of the actual player data on their characters was lost forever.  

 

 

Wurm stands alone in the case of developers who were able to give players some form of permanency, in the form of sanctioned player-run servers that could continue on long after some business manager flicked the switch off on the official servers. But even in that case, it went back on promises, and often released buggy patches that crippled some of the gameplay. Still, one day -- hopefully still years down the road -- Wurm will continue on solely  because of the work the WU modding community have done to keep the dream alive.

 

 

Eckin I understand how painful this could be, and that that pain is what is triggering your unwarranted and unseemly  hostile outburst and "attacking the messenger".  I will simply say, BDew has done a HELL of a lot more for the Wurm community-at-large, than you ever have and ever will.  And one day you will realize that, even if fear and pain are making you act like an absolute a-wipe today.  

 

 

Edited by Brash_Endeavors
  • Like 4
  • Cat 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Brash_Endeavors said:

Asheron's Call is a perfect example ..

Ryzom is a counter-example. The code and player data were given (sold out at a low price) to a group of former developers who later even went open source. Not that it is an overall success but allowed survival since 11 years now.

Quote

Companies that own gaming IPs have not and will not ever give that code back to the players.

 

A universal proposition is disproven by 1 counter example. See above. Granted that Rolf has not the only say should the situation ever emerge. And it is not the place to speculate about now. As said repeatedly, I see chances for WO by the steam move, and something to advertise WO to a larger public was dearly missing since longer time. Insofar it is a step in the right direction, and will hopefully succeed.

 

And you have no knowledge and no right to judge what would or could be painful for me. And former merits of former WO players or devs do not count, and weighing them against me is illogical. Spreading doom prophecies now is counterproductive and harmful though, and fairly obviously interest driven when uttered by WU server operators. As said, that smells cannibalistic desires and twisted interests.

 

And that has nothing to do with that I am not happy with announcements of terminating or seriously restricting WU support in the future. I do not think that this would be a wise decision, even though some content and mechanics are not for WU and are reasonable not to be implemented by the dev team.

 

Edited by Ekcin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/23/2019 at 3:29 PM, Rolf said:

Yeah, although because we lose almost every player who don't want to pay as soon as they hit this ceiling we should consider simply slowing down skillgain instead. We'll see. Also I like the idea of letting people start at 10 or 15 or so.

 

I have played this game for about 7 years now (not that it makes my point more valid or anything) but during that time I have tryid Epic/freedom/unlimited servers and have started over many times where my first account was on epic.

Trying the diffrent skilling systems I have to say old Epic was the best mix of them all for me, the times 2 and curve really helped with crafting and catching up in pvp.

The worst one would be unlimited's system for me as it doesnt feel like it goes with wurms initial idea, it feels weird for example that high ql tools gives you more skills then lower ql as that should technically make things easier for you and therefore give you less experiance in working with that tool. While in combat its the otherway around where high ql weapons kills your enemies faster giving you less ticks while in the original wurm more damage = larger ticks of skills. So according to me it goes Old Epic system - Freedom Hardcore System - Wurm Unlimited System(new epic system).

That being said the idea of letting ppl start with 10-15 skills isnt half bad, my advice would be to let ppl choose a few proffessions as they enter the game, like maybe give them a small quiz where they answer 10 questions and depeding on their answers they starts with 10+ in certain skills (not all of them, you most still feel the grind of starting with something completly new aswell). So for example if the question was:
When you entered adulthood you often earned a few coins helping the local......

  • Smith (10+ smithing)
  • Farmer (10+ farming)
  • Tailor (10+ tailoring)
  • Carpenter (10+ carpenter)

(Then doing similiar with fighting related skills like archery, sword, axe and so on)


I also do not think they server should merge if they go well, ppl wont take it well if they see ppl coming over with 10 years + experiance into the community/world they built up from scratch on steam. 

:) Otherwise im really excited to start on the new server and see how the steam community will behave as I like to help small communitys grow.
 

Edited by Nocturnes
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/7/2019 at 6:27 AM, Brash_Endeavors said:

Asheron's Call is a perfect example of what is likely to happen. It's the ONLY mmo that came close to actually releasing a dying game back to its own community. Developers who loved the game and loved the community tried their very best to make it possible for players to run officially approved private servers of the game as it neared the end of its lifecycle.  They even went to far as to "promise" the community that it was in the works. But alas, that is not how things work in " the real business world":  WB goes back on promise about Asheron's Call - shuts down PhatAC emulation project

 

Companies that own gaming IPs have not and will not ever give that code back to the players. They won't even "sell" the game back to the community for it to bring back without corporate help. No matter how much Rolf wants to see Wurm live on forever, he gave up the right to have ANY final say in that, when he sold the majority shares for Wurm to a profit-centered mobile game company. 

 

It seems logicial if a company can no longer make money off a game, they might at least sell the game back to the community for it to revive however they can, but in -every- case where this was tried, company lawyers refused to allow it and refused any offers by the community to crowdfund a fan-financed release.  Now, the only "good" news for these games is that there are some illegally run private servers for various former MMOs that are running emulated versions of their games anyway. helped perhaps by "leaks" from sympathetic former developers.  But, Asheron's Call was the closest any MMO community has ever gotten to having a once popular MMO released back to its fanbase after some company decided it no longer wanted to run even barebones maintenance-mode servers.  And of course, even once the private server emulators popped up later, thanks to leaked code, all of the actual player data on their characters was lost forever.  

 

 

Wurm stands alone in the case of developers who were able to give players some form of permanency, in the form of sanctioned player-run servers that could continue on long after some business manager flicked the switch off on the official servers. But even in that case, it went back on promises, and often released buggy patches that crippled some of the gameplay. Still, one day -- hopefully still years down the road -- Wurm will continue on solely  because of the work the WU modding community have done to keep the dream alive.

 

 

Eckin I understand how painful this could be, and that that pain is what is triggering your unwarranted and unseemly  hostile outburst and "attacking the messenger".  I will simply say, BDew has done a HELL of a lot more for the Wurm community-at-large, than you ever have and ever will.  And one day you will realize that, even if fear and pain are making you act like an absolute a-wipe today.  

 

 

not all data will lost, there are skill dumps on niarja

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, tamat said:

not all data will lost, there are skill dumps on niarja

 

Niarja is the backup in case Wurm Online backup fails. Good point

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Sklo:D said:

 

Niarja is the backup in case Wurm Online backup fails. Good point.

Those dumbs can be modified however player wants. or has that been changed? havent used niarja in a while.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Themystrix said:

Those dumbs can be modified however player wants. or has that been changed? havent used niarja in a while.

yeah, also players dont update it regularly but is better than nothing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I assumed everyone was kidding so I was kidding, while I was the only one kidding?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/23/2019 at 3:12 PM, Rolf said:

Ah yes there are no plans to remove the existing client. Also we might make it possible to log on to the existing servers (the accounts you have today) via the steam client as well.

 

If this is the case then im all for it.

Worked years for my skills and put a lot of time and money into it so yeah a total restart would be ridiculous for old players.

Also I use Mac so if it will only be steam it means I can't play. Using bootcamp is not that ideal. And although there might not be many, there are more Mac users who might want to play Wurm.

I do think the new server should be on steam AND should be able to acces through the existing client. It could only attract more people that don't like Steam for example.

Hope wurm can be saved! 👍

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SweetSusie said:

Also I use Mac so if it will only be steam it means I can't play. Using bootcamp is not that ideal. And although there might not be many, there are more Mac users who might want to play Wurm.

 

Steam has been Mac available for some years now, even if WU isn't. I doubt CC would make WO for Steam non-Mac compatible, particularly as the game is Java, or they'd be cutting out a market share unnecessarily.

 

Not seen any mention of system requirements yet though. 🙂

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Adambean said:

 

Steam has been Mac available for some years now, even if WU isn't. I doubt CC would make WO for Steam non-Mac compatible, particularly as the game is Java, or they'd be cutting out a market share unnecessarily.

 

Not seen any mention of system requirements yet though. 🙂


I mean i have steam. It’s for mac too but WU isn’t available for mac on steam. Only for windows and SteamOs + Linux. Even though Wurm is Java and WO works fine on mac. There is no way to play WU on mac.
And in Rolfs post about Steam WO he keeps naming pc and linux players. So i don’t think they will make a mac version. Will ask though.

but as long as Nothing will change with the current WO client it doesn’t really matter for me. I prefer WO over  WU anytime.

 

And playing WU in bootcamp windows is just different. Id rather not have to. I prefer WO to get the best experience. 😉
 

 

Edited by SweetSusie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/8/2019 at 11:40 AM, Nocturnes said:

it feels weird for example that high ql tools gives you more skills then lower ql as that should technically make things easier for you and therefore give you less experiance in working with that tool.

That feels weird to you? I've always thought it makes no sense that the better your tool is, the less XP you get. I'm not really a fan of the epic curve tbh, the less confusing it is the better imo. The only change I'd like to see from default Wurm is removal of priest restrictions. There is a reason why most of the WU servers went that route, I think almost everyone prefers it. Having priest restrictions not only restricts the priests but it restricts everyone else from ever becoming priests. The restrictions are way too harsh, priests can barely play the game. It objectively makes the game less fun for players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.