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Rolf

WO Steam Discussion

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I think it would be pretty silly to take away all the work your current player base has done to accommodate the "new" steam servers for wurm... The newbs will still have the newb experience if steam is successful for wo. Add a reasonable cash shop and go f2p and the old player base will be a minority, perhaps it won't matter we're more skilled?

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5 hours ago, Maximillian said:

I think it would be pretty silly to take away all the work your current player base has done to accommodate the "new" steam servers for wurm... The newbs will still have the newb experience if steam is successful for wo. Add a reasonable cash shop and go f2p and the old player base will be a minority, perhaps it won't matter we're more skilled?

They're not really taking away the work us current players have done; the current servers will remain while steam will receive its own cluster. While yes, it's possible to still have a "newb" experience on the current clusters, it's nothing like the experience where everyone has fresh characters and servers. Currently, a new player spawns into any of the starter towns and is met with rows of Market Stalls usually filled with unreasonably priced items, or discovers one of the many COD merchants on the forums. They then pay for high ql/enchanted tools that bypass the early "struggle" of the game, while also bypassing one of the more important aspects of the game; the community. Or, they may be lucky and meet an established player who takes them into their deed, hands them anything they may ever need and tells them to do whatever they want. They likely quit shortly after as they don't really know what to do. A new cluster, among other changes (primarily to the premium services,) is what Wurm needs to really click with a new crowd of players.

 

There's not much point to playing in a sandbox if everyone else has already spent years building castles...

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1 hour ago, Jore said:

They're not really taking away the work us current players have done; the current servers will remain while steam will receive its own cluster. While yes, it's possible to still have a "newb" experience on the current clusters, it's nothing like the experience where everyone has fresh characters and servers. Currently, a new player spawns into any of the starter towns and is met with rows of Market Stalls usually filled with unreasonably priced items, or discovers one of the many COD merchants on the forums. They then pay for high ql/enchanted tools that bypass the early "struggle" of the game, while also bypassing one of the more important aspects of the game; the community. Or, they may be lucky and meet an established player who takes them into their deed, hands them anything they may ever need and tells them to do whatever they want. They likely quit shortly after as they don't really know what to do. A new cluster, among other changes (primarily to the premium services,) is what Wurm needs to really click with a new crowd of players.

 

There's not much point to playing in a sandbox if everyone else has already spent years building castles...

What's the point in having persistent wold/server then. At some point the new steam server cluster will become something that you just described is stopping the players of having optimal experience. You are still going to have that same market in a few months, market stall filled with unreasonably priced tools and many merchant on forum offering items on not resonable prices, even more ripoff. Open a new cluster gain then? Reset the old one? Why WU servers aren't successful then in filling this gap, i don't see 1000'sof players playing it

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4 hours ago, Jore said:

They're not really taking away the work us current players have done; the current servers will remain while steam will receive its own cluster. While yes, it's possible to still have a "newb" experience on the current clusters, it's nothing like the experience where everyone has fresh characters and servers. Currently, a new player spawns into any of the starter towns and is met with rows of Market Stalls usually filled with unreasonably priced items, or discovers one of the many COD merchants on the forums. They then pay for high ql/enchanted tools that bypass the early "struggle" of the game, while also bypassing one of the more important aspects of the game; the community. Or, they may be lucky and meet an established player who takes them into their deed, hands them anything they may ever need and tells them to do whatever they want. They likely quit shortly after as they don't really know what to do. A new cluster, among other changes (primarily to the premium services,) is what Wurm needs to really click with a new crowd of players.

 

There's not much point to playing in a sandbox if everyone else has already spent years building castles...

 

With new servers in the existing cluster. there would be no castles on those servers that people spent years to build. Yet if a new player prefers a more mature server then he has the CHOICE to go there because its all one  big cluster.  As for the early game "struggle", I can't blame anybody for buying some high ql tools early on, as the ~50% chance to create even the most basic of stuff, and the slow timers, aren't fun. I saw that again recently on Jackal, the early game struggle isn't going to catch on with a new crowd of players these days, especially not without such tools. A lot of tweaking will be necessary there (like upping those creation chances, cutting down a bit on the longest timers, etc. You'd still want higher skill to give an advantage for the sense of progression, but currently it's probably tilted too much in that direction). Also, how do you propose to maintain that "newb" experience on a fresh server? Keep releasing new clusters every X months? That's not sustainable.

 

As for community, a separate cluster is exactly what would bypass the community aspect of  the game, as it puts away the existing community as unimportant/irrelevant. It puts it away as a thing of the past, especially as new players are far more likely to find the steam version (as it's on steam) then the current version, and thus will mostly go to steam while the current WO community bleeds to death. With Steam forums they'd also have no reason to use these forums, so they'd have no reason to come here at all. The last time a separate freedom cluster was created at least the community wasn't as thinly spread as it is now, and the client was also the same so new players had a choice of where to go.

 

Perhaps that would be a good middle ground? Let new characters on either client choose  between the 2 clusters, just like back in the day with Release and Pristine before they were connected? That way the old servers wont bleed to death as they will get the same amount of exposure from a Steam release as any new server.

 

 

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Problem is... some of the current players will move from WO to steam and thin even more the profits from WO, than it's a hail mary attempt to save the population of the game.. 

If the steam version does not succeed, I'd expect last resort/revive with drastic revamp of the game and shop to attract casuals, tons of p2win packages, items, skins, decorations, etc.. as last resort to save it all, making the game at least 3x+ easier to grind and make things... basically casual wu server but official

Edited by Finnn
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A new server that I can sail to would be fine of course but blocking me from going to it without my character would be the issue. I want to be around to see a high pop wurm again with the characters I've worked on for so long...

 

Edit: Why is there not much point to playing a sandbox just because others have played for years? Insperation to build amazing things is never a bad deal imo. 

Edited by Maximillian
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Advertising is incredibly expensive, and Code Club can't even afford to hire a full staff of developers...  Where's the ad money going to come from?

 

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Some marketing will prolly take place on the new owners websites.

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1 hour ago, Maximillian said:

A new server that I can sail to would be fine of course but blocking me from going to it without my character would be the issue. I want to be around to see a high pop wurm again with the characters I've worked on for so long...

 

Edit: Why is there not much point to playing a sandbox just because others have played for years? Insperation to build amazing things is never a bad deal imo. 

What's wrong with having a new server and letting it to mature.. new players will be ~toxic and doing all kinds of weird stuff anyway..

The things community here is used to ... is not normal behavior in mmos pve or pvp.. persistent world and tos, also being in a small community have taught us to behave or be reported for otherwise regenerating things in other games.

I'd expect weird folks on the new server and letting them grow up for a few months or a year/+ doesn't sound bad.

 

new server is just a server, idk why anybody hypes around it that much, unless current population moves there and kills the numbers here, that's a plus when it gets enough players to merge into existing servers later on. (that's the best case at least)

 

--edit

1 hour ago, Ricowan said:

Advertising is incredibly expensive, and Code Club can't even afford to hire a full staff of developers...  Where's the ad money going to come from?

Maybe they can hire more, but need better profits/prem players/ to keep them all around, it's unreasonable to pay 20 people for a year and fade because you outscaled your business expenses while profits didn't make sense to invest that much at the time.

 

1 hour ago, Ricowan said:

Advertising is incredibly expensive, and Code Club can't even afford to hire a full staff of developers...  Where's the ad money going to come from?

You could SEO for free.. same with PR by writing articles around gaming sites.. all kinds of posts here and there around other forums, reddit, gaming hubs, blogs, and so on

ads in general go to people's adblock wall, money well wasted, it shows as shown ad maybe or not.. but.. in most cases it wont show to people who actively do stuff... the remaining who do not use it.. are probably busy enough to ignore it.

 

1 thing to note is that wogic... is a crazy thing that only a few will bare with.. that's us... new players might not have the nerves to cope with WO's nonsense and move to WU even if they liked the game to get the qol of mods and progress in a month-2-5.. but not drain life into a character for 5+ years.

 

Either way.. we like the world for what it is.. but new players might check the scales before jumping in.

Edited by Finnn

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On 9/23/2019 at 8:14 AM, Rolf said:

Comments inline in bold...

 

Q1)  Would we be risking more fracturing of our player base?

  • Do not merge the new server cluster/servers with existing ones
  • Create a new server cluster and put new players on it (e.g., Jackal is its own cluster/server)
  • Don't assume hundreds or thousands of new players will stick it out over the medium->long-term
  • Require new players to have the necessary experience and playtime before being allowed to move
  • A steady rise in overall population and player retention over time is more important in the long run

Q2) Steam gets a bit fussy with real money transactions. Can we abide by Steam Guidelines?

  • Retain the freedom to buy accounts/deeds/items/silver for real money if players chose to do so
  • Add purchases of gametime, silver, character appearance and cosmetic items through Steam
  • Still allow cosmetic items to be unlocked through gameplay (i.e., events like we've already had)

Q3) How about the code base? Won't another branch be too much to handle?

  • No comment and not going to get into a software development discussion

Q4) How about staffing the servers? Will there be enough volunteers around to help out?

  • People who are interested will step in to help if they want the game to continue to succeed

Q5) Will we be able to deal with the added cost of infrastructure?

  • Shouldn't be a problem but again you need a stable and consistent playerbase over time

Q6) Would we release both Freedom and Epic servers?

  • Shouldn't be a problem if new players are put on a separate cluster (see comments above)

Q7) What timeframe are we looking at?

  • Don't know but I think there are other things to think about and consider carefully first

 

Edited by Neville

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What's wrong with having new players on a new server is I'd like to be around to see wurm grow potentially but there is 0 chance I'll start skilling over... If the server was connected to freedom it'd be fine since everyone could be involved.

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26 minutes ago, Maximillian said:

What's wrong with having new players on a new server is I'd like to be around to see wurm grow potentially but there is 0 chance I'll start skilling over... If the server was connected to freedom it'd be fine since everyone could be involved.

 

This. I also don't see what's wrong with new players. The last few times Wurm had a sudden influx of players it generally livened up the existing servers and it went well. It creates a more positive atmosphere in general. It tends to be a positive for both new and existing players to mix them. Just look at how Xanadu turned out, at one point that was a new server added to an existing cluster, and it went great (except for some performance related issues, but that's besides the point). Existing players who wanted to live there packed up their stuff and moved over while plenty of new players joined as well. It was one big new adventure that everybody could join in on, while keeping their current progression. A separate cluster throws all that away, if you want in on that adventure then you have to give up on the character you have build up over the years. What's the point of a persistent character if new separate clusters are added every now and then? Jackal and Epic at least do it right since some of the work on your character (will) transfer back. Why keep paying for all this if it's going to be made irrelevant, and probably be starved to death player count wise, due to a completely separate steam release? We've already got WU for a more single player experience...

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I think one of the things that could be done better is giving a better starter direction. What I mean is, you're just dropped into the game world and you're still mostly learning from the Wiki. I'd love to see the journal made more prominent to new starters, being told "Hey there's this thing that gives you rewards and a good idea of what you need to be doing next in general, take a look!"

Maybe even make the journal interactive at the start?

How about there's a journal tier that you can only see in the tutorial when you start playing, and you can't access it again even if you open the tutorial from the journal? Once the basic movement is done and things are being flashed on screen, highlight the journal option and have the player open it. Have all the tutorial actions in this journal tier and give them 1 hour of sleep bonus as a reward to help give them a little step up on the way.

 

I think the journal is one of the best adds I've seen in a very long time but it's still not being fully used to its best potential.

Side note, should probably add "Make a Practice doll" to the First Steps or Finding the Path journal tier since fighting is such a vital skill, especially early on when trying to find your way.

Edited by Madnath
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Maybe creating a BROAD book of tips.. for all kinds of things... and using the system that tells you about stamina/swimming/hunger/etc.. 

Notifications from there seemed like the common in other games help / tutorial tips..

having a profile with selection what tips you'd like to receive and how/when... could be the key to satisfy everyone?

 

Like going for woodcutting.. and telling you that skill + hq hatchet + better hatchet skill + not too old tree.. gives you your best odds to get better ql logs?

Sure that's boring for old players with imbue and 90 skill, but for a new player who isn't a wiki crawling.. it could save bunch of minutes enjoying the game instead of reading the wiki in a separate browser...

 

Reason I suggest this is.. because you'd also get the option to remind yourself any of the details at any point of time.. returning after 6month - 1-2-5 year break..

Journal as one time thing could work, but wont be useful after the starting days.

 

Journal could get new unlocks based on account age or online time, prem months? - "problem".. alts will farm such in bulk.. why we can't have nice things..

What other *events* should trigger more things to chase in the game in the journal?

 

Achievement system? Based on things you do/did.. could trigger new journal 'missions' to perform at any time.. or within a range of days/hours?

 

Micro missions could possibly make some do weird stuff to get more sb or weird new unique decorations, etc.. think of what you're else want people to do other than being bored with everyday 'chores'.

 

* Practice doll is one of the most useless items in the game.. If you could ride things.. you're way better off exploring and rope-ing non-aggressive creatures.. to train fighting sub skills on them + farming cotton etc..

The improvement and repairing of the p.d. is crazy.

Not a bad idea to teach/force them to make it.. but it's really slow way to do it(maybe slowest)

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Practice doll is still a perfectly fine way to start off totally fresh, rather than trying to fight a pheasent and missing every swing. Might not be able to get a mount easy enough to just be able to run away either.

Tips aren't a totally bad idea but they'd really have to be kept pretty short, at the point you open a menu and select a skill to get a tip on, you might as well already be tabbed out into a wiki.

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Practice dolls are absolutely useless

They give no weapon skills, body stats and barely any fighting skill and they take way too much damage. You end up having to repair it after every use and it takes minutes to repair at higher damage

If they gave at least ten times the amount of fighting skill they do now i could see them being somewhat useful. As it stands you are better off killing cattle and non aggressive animals as a newbie than to use a practice doll
They are another example of a good idea but a terrible implementation

You dont even need to ride a horse to go hunting for CR bonus, you can just use a large cart

Edited by nitram20

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I have personally wondered why a steam release was not done years ago. It was a topic that was brought up dozens of times and the number one point of disagreement was new players ruining the servers because they didn't know any better. We have all experienced being new to wurm and I would hope we would share the same experience we had when we first started playing. Remember the first player that took you under his/her wing and protected you and kicked you in the right direction until you made yourself your 1x1 shack. That was the experience that hooked me to this game and i will forever be grateful to you Smebb for doing that for me. We Should not be afraid of new players especially since they will be starting apart from us on a different server. They will have the time to figure out the game and it will weed out those that don't care for it. Most people wont take the time and pay the money to skill up just to grief on a pve server.

 

The biggest desire for this game has also been its downfall. Owning your own piece of land and sculpting it to your imagination is the best feeling a game can give but because of that we all live the hermit life and the mechanics of the game make it hard to bring people together other than for unique hunts, sermons, and rifts. We struggle to manage deeds with other player accounts and there is no benefit to living in groups other than for the company but again deed management gets in the way. How hard would it be to make deeds able to be turned into smaller fiefs, giving players complete control and access to a chunk within the deed where they would pay a rent for the land set by the parent deed? Or give a skill bonus to players when they are working the same profession in close proximity much like how priests get a skill bonus when other priests are nearby during a sermon. The whole point would be to give a bigger reason to live closer together than far apart.

 

I don't speak for pvp players since i don't care for the pvp mechanics in wurm but they are as important to wurms success as pve is so lets not forget them in the steam release. In short i hope a steam release will net us the much needed player base we have needed and regardless of what is changed, not releasing on steam would be a mistake. You can change and update a game all you want but without players and more subscriptions we wont be having many more of these discussions.

 

Have to get my 2 cents in on bees.....we need larger storage containers for honey. Huge tubs just ain't going to cut it anymore :P. Im sure i forgot what i was originally going to say but oh well, miss you guys.

 

 

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I always wonder whether a completely fresh server cluster is so much of a boon, or just a nostalgic dream of veteran players. I am not sure.

 

For my part, less than 2 years in Wurm, I can only say that I was happy about the presence of more experienced players when I started Dec 2017. I recall very well how much and how often I pestered especially Shydow and Grifo with questions, be it in CA Help channel or in talk, though I extensively made use of the wiki. Maybe with a steam launch, a CA steam help might be accessible to read and write from the existing servers' side, and not only for staff. 

 

Maybe the situation is different when crowds of new players are starting in the same area. That has already been tried with Haven's Landing, which I still consider a good idea though it prolly came bit too late to stem the dwindling of player base.

 

Still I think that the stagnation is much due to the complete lack of making Wurm better known to a wider public. A steam launch would certainly be a way to do that at least for that part of the gaming community. Again I believe that dropping press releases to IT and gaming portals, in the Linux (maybe Mac) area in particular, would help at least to reach a wider audience, maybe an article or some in gaming or computer mags and portals could be initiated as well. Clearly the now failed Elevation3, and even more the Jackal/Frontier launch would have deserved to be announced as new steps and chapters in Wurm development. Note that in the Linux world (dont know about Mac), 3d games still are rare, and there may be interest for a game like Wurm.

 

Again, please refrain from ideas to water and dumb down Wurm in the name of QoL. All changes should be prudently thought through. And it should be made clear from the beginning that Wurm is a niche game for people not expecting to reach "endgame skills" within a few weeks.

Edited by Ekcin
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I'm fairly certain that this has been suggested already, but I can't find where it was, so here's my suggestion for the new WO Steam cluster:

 

1. Implement a few QoL changes in the new cluster, as Rolf has already indicated will be open for discussion.

2. Plan a scheduled wipe of the PvE server every 2 years.  Make sure the community is crystal clear on the date this will occur.  Implement a mechanism to earn "Legacy Points" (or something similar) via accomplishments during their time in game (ie: achieving milestones, earning skill titles, participating in certain large scale encounters, etc.) whereby they can transfer a certain amount of skill, etc. to the new server after the wipe occurs.  It's basically a way of acknowledging a player's work during the 2 years and giving them a way of transferring at least some of it (or some other reward they can redeem) once the new map is spun up.  

 

I realize there may be push back to this suggestion.  No one wants to lose their progress.  However, most people do like fresh maps and it is one way to prevent the splintering of the community into several servers over time.  

 

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What Hawkyn said +1.

 

Haven & Hearth saw its biggest playercount ever when they did a world reset. Wurm was always at its peak when new lands were opening up to explore. bi-annual wipes, perhaps with rewards based on your progress in the previous wipe, would be a great way to get fresh and old players in every so often. If you did something like bringing back older maps I think that could encourage some older players to return en-masse (Imagine that first wipe is Jenn-Kellon Home from gold 2), assuming it's properly hyped and announced.

Wurm has been stagnant ever since it stopped opening up new lands. Time to look at what an alternative like H&H did and admit new lands are the key to more players, and if you don't want to spread the playerbase thin then wiping said maps every so often can keep providing that fresh start without splitting the players up further.

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@Hawkynyou do not play games often do you?

That's a good way to kill a customer in 2 years and snip the rope letting them free to go to new desktop/mmo game.

 

Player saying "..... this, I'm switching classes", or "I'm trying other way of playing" like crafter-priest/pve-pvp play-style.. sure.. it's his/her choice, but if you want to make that decision for somebody..    Pff.. bring your umbrella for the ....storm.

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Not having your code base separate is really a bad idea.  You should be catering to the steam community, which means you are now directly competing with other games on the steam platform.  To compete, you're going to have to deviate from the existing player base that does not like, nor want any future changes that make the game more convenient for new players as these changes would change the core experience and gameplay.

 

Like I said before, your market is already tapped for the existing game.  Further marketing would not help, because niche games like this are sought out by players looking for a game like this.

 

You are now trying to strike gold, and to strike gold you need better tools.  Those tools do not allow you to keep the old folk town up and running.  As new players come in, they're going to want things changed... As your player base on steam becomes bigger, which do you listen to the new player base that wants now-day gameplay mechanics or the old player base that likes the game the way it is?

The only way to satisfy both is to keep the game code separate.  Learn from your mistake with the PVP servers, when you made changes to PVP it adversely affected the PVE side.  Example, animal taming nerf.

 

Adapt, as WU has shown you anything...  It's that variety is a good thing.  Not everyone wants fast action timers, not everyone wants slow action timers, not everyone wants fast skill gain... not everyone wants a ton of creatures, others love extreme environments... 


You obviously are going to do what you think is best, but I'm not confident in your decision making given the weirdness of the cooking update, the fishing update, and archeology.  The continued effort to make PVP work, yet no one plays there... and the dying devotion to your existing fan base.

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10 minutes ago, jonsnow said:

Like I said before, your market is already tapped for the existing game.  Further marketing would not help, because niche games like this are sought out by players looking for a game like thisn base.


Your points are obviously valid and have power but this one? I entirely disagree with.
It took me almost 6 years to discover wurm and i'd been wanting a game like this for that entire time.
and i got lucky. word of mouth from a mature minecraft friend shone the light on it.

I would passionately wager that (at least) thousands of players are out there that have yet to hear about this game or be introduced to it properly.
to say nothing of developing nations having recently acquired easy-access to the internet.
It took me 6 years, some folk playing it now.. it took them 10.
the market is not tapped. i apologise for disagreeing with one element on an otherwise constructive post.

 

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So more fracture, less population for freedom and we the current playerbase (you know the ones who have stuck by the game rather than abandon it) get left by the wayside.

 

Good for the future of the game and company, I guess that is a good thing for you but looks like we are going to get scr*wed again.

 

I am talking only about the population of active players, the fact we are spread across several servers even as the population dwindles and nothing is done, that epic and pvp have only been touched on but not actually addressed. You basically pay for ghost-servers who have populations of less that 20 active accounts (who knows how many are actual players and not alts) but nothing is done to consolidate these costs. Instead you decide to spend more money in hopes of another influx of revenue to continue forward. I am sure it will fix the short term cash flow issues you probably are having as more and more people leave wurm online.

 

The ship is sinking and the rats are abandoning the ship, it happens all the time and I have seen it many times over the years in many different mmo's. While I think your path forward is a nice band-aid it does not actually do anything for wurm online freedom cluster except keep the doors open but the problems for us as players still exist and are about to get worse.

 

That's the bad news as I see it. I am a cynic and see only what has been presented to us partially skewed by my thought process. Please refute it as I would be happy to know how you plan to address dwindling server populations with your steam release? Are you hoping enough players move to steam so you can shut down servers rather than addressing the issue head on?  Is there a light at the end of the tunnel or are we going to have to bite the bullet and move to steam wurm if we want to play wurm in an active population? Is that the fix? 

 

If there is nothing to address the actual issue in wurm online freedom, please let us know so those of us who just paid for several subscriptions for our accounts and in game silver through the wurm shop can decide if we want to continue to support CC's "goal" of a steam wurm or should we cancel our subscriptions and move to a stable WU server or maybe an entirely new game that will support the playerbase and not their just their bank account. Harsh I know but that's how it looks to me.

 

BTW if I am wrong please let me know. I am sure others have read the same thing I have and come to the same conclusions.

Edited by Anunnaki
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The new Steam server should not be a pvp and a pve server seperate. As it is now it seems to be pvp is very motivated about money instead of the fun of pvping.

 

Make the pvp aspect as a direct portal (same skills/skill gain) to a capture the area type server like challenge or something where people can go to have fun.

 

Get rid of the monetary gains from capping uniques/full loot pvp and make the game more enjoyable without the major losses.

 

Make unique bosses like rift beacons. you could even have clear all the rift beacons and the dragon beacon will spawn on map.

 

One of the main issues right now with wurm is the fact that pve cannot enjoy many things thanks to pvp/pve barriers. Why cant pve have Tabards to distinguish thier alliance?

 

Why are wagon/tent only availble to pvp kingdoms? Is it a large profit to code club /game chest club to have people buying silver or every alliance dropping 100 + dollars for the ability to create a more meshed alliance experience.

 

in addition to jackal for weapon skins make a rare item token to where people can trade in rares to stimulate the economy. If there is a lack of artwork for skins open up the submission to others besides the team.

Edited by Killroth

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