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On 10/7/2019 at 6:00 AM, bdew said:

 

I hope you do realize Wurm Online can and will go poof the moment their new corporate overlords decide it's not making (enough) money and they don't feel like spending more on it. And at that point WU servers is all the wurm you will have left.

 

Someone like me might buy it from them and keep it going. Or a group of players perhaps.

 

Not everything has to be about profit in this world.

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About PvP:

If you are hoping to receive a lot of new players, outside of the current playerbase, you are totally wrong.

 

Let's all be honest, the reason why Wurm has such a problem to keep the playerbase, is the main reason, why the game is so beautiful - Harcore grind.

It's such an unfriendly game for newbies.

 

I will be honest, You do not have anything new to offer, why the hell you would wish to release the same product, in an new platform, without offering anything new.

What will the new release bring? It feels like there are so many tries to re-start the same old game, and with the main reason, being, so everyone can start from the same level. Eventually everything crumbles back to dust, again.

 

I really love the game, but I feel betrayed. You are basicly re-starting the same old game, same old style, over these years, i do not understand... If you want to really, resurrect the game, you must adapt to the time.

I'm feeling like this is another way to try to suck out, as much as you can, from a dying fruit.

 

Take the core of the game - The ultimate sandbox. Wurm offers what nothing can, freedom to do what you want, as you want.

Now you have the core, put it into something brand, brand new.

 

 

Stop re-starting the same old game, bring something new.

 

Edited by Zibens
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..new what? You seem to want something, but aren't even sharing 1 thing that you're missing to receive from the game..

 

If current players wanted to pvp, they had the option for years.. never seemed to work as full loss of items etc.. is obviously not a thing they wish to participate in.. and existing pvpers always loved just that aspect with the token draining.. clearly that conflict kills any interaction.

Any new player on pvp maps gets ganked.. eventually weeding all new players out.. and leaving just the few playing in a group of same or several kingdoms...

 

Take a time frame and note all issues that have arisen in them.. repeat the exercise back in time.. for as far back as you like.. and see which events repeat over and over.. clearly.. that should be worked on first, than 1-2 of the less common issues.. next step.. fix some of the new issues that have been reported.. or add something new.. can't just fix things.. have to spice it up with a new 'bug' to fix later ^^, it's a work in process 🤔

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2 hours ago, Finnn said:

..new what? You seem to want something, but aren't even sharing 1 thing that you're missing to receive from the game..

 

If current players wanted to pvp, they had the option for years.. never seemed to work as full loss of items etc.. is obviously not a thing they wish to participate in.. and existing pvpers always loved just that aspect with the token draining.. clearly that conflict kills any interaction.

Any new player on pvp maps gets ganked.. eventually weeding all new players out.. and leaving just the few playing in a group of same or several kingdoms...

 

Take a time frame and note all issues that have arisen in them.. repeat the exercise back in time.. for as far back as you like.. and see which events repeat over and over.. clearly.. that should be worked on first, than 1-2 of the less common issues.. next step.. fix some of the new issues that have been reported.. or add something new.. can't just fix things.. have to spice it up with a new 'bug' to fix later ^^, it's a work in process 🤔

 

It does not matter, if the current players want to pvp, Rolf mentioned about plans of releasing epic-like server.

And in general, I mean, why are you releasing same old game, over and over? 

You literally make new clusters, seperate servers, basicly getting money out of people buying premium, and then just join them together, and the loop goes on, basicly fooling the people into spending, spending, spending money into the same product. Of course, the server is different, the map is fresh, you start from the scratch - but what changes? Nothing.

 

Instead of releasing the same old game, into a new server, how about releasing a new idea, new scenario  into a new server? Challange is an great example, of trying out new things, on new servers. Why the hell you need another freedom server? So people can start to play in it, leave old freedom, and basicly re-start it, for it to be later joined together with old freedom? What is the point, tell me? If you want a new map, why don't you make yearly wipes?

 

Wurm has reached the point of stagnation, years ago.

I agree, there are some texture changes, there are new furniture. But really, what's different? Tell me, what feels new, since you started playing. What do you do on daily basis?

There is no road for the game. MMORPG games, in order to survive, have to adapt, have to invent new things, for people, to not feel drained, not to feel the point of burnout, some do it successfully, at some parts. But let's state the obvious, wurm has been dying,dying,dying. How many new people you see around?

 

 

Don't get me wrong, Wurm will be my most favorite game, i ever played. But it's been years, and i mean years, of the same problems being pointed out.

 

Edited by Zibens
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Zibens I dont think you understand how sandbox games work. They pretty much all (every one I can think of) periodically release new servers, or have server wipes. They don't reinvent the wheel every time they do it, they just do it because its necessary. I'd argue Wurms problem is it doesnt do it enough if anything and it keeps the old ones around out of fear of upsetting people, like some kind of hoarder that refuses to throw out trash.

 

Sure you might have a point about slow content updates and lack of new things but challenge was not a great example, challenge was rubbish. Wurm is not really the kind of game where you should expect anything new and exciting. Usually if they are working on something new it'll be about 5 years before you even see it, like when they added boats and horses. At this point I'm pleasantly surprised whenever I see any kind of sign of life from Wurm. It's like looking at a corpse and going "omg it moved!" 😄

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On 10/28/2019 at 6:31 AM, MightySheep said:

Zibens I dont think you understand how sandbox games work. They pretty much all (every one I can think of) periodically release new servers, or have server wipes. They don't reinvent the wheel every time they do it, they just do it because its necessary. I'd argue Wurms problem is it doesnt do it enough if anything and it keeps the old ones around out of fear of upsetting people, like some kind of hoarder that refuses to throw out trash.

 

Sure you might have a point about slow content updates and lack of new things but challenge was not a great example, challenge was rubbish. Wurm is not really the kind of game where you should expect anything new and exciting. Usually if they are working on something new it'll be about 5 years before you even see it, like when they added boats and horses. At this point I'm pleasantly surprised whenever I see any kind of sign of life from Wurm. It's like looking at a corpse and going "omg it moved!" 😄

 

Wurm is a very slow game, that just doesn't mix with periodic wipes. Everything would need to be sped up big time for that.

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4 hours ago, Ecrir said:

Wurm is a very slow game, that just doesn't mix with periodic wipes. Everything would need to be sped up big time for that.

"Periodic" could literally mean every 100 years though. I didn't specify a time frame, if it was too frequent like challenge then it would be stupid. I don't think it should even be a routine either. I just think common sense should be used when deciding if a server has run its course and in my opinion it's usually pretty obvious when that is the case. If I had to put a fairly modest time frame on it, I would say any server thats over 6 years old is pretty washed up and not likely to be getting any new players. Occasionally deleting washed up old servers and adding new ones is a system that I think makes a lot of sense and would probably increase the overall playerbase. Characters can just be dumped on the main cluster so they dont need to be lost. Similar to how Path of Exile's 'challenge league' system works (which is a very good/successful system).

 

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1 hour ago, MightySheep said:

"Periodic" could literally mean every 100 years though. I didn't specify a time frame, if it was too frequent like challenge then it would be stupid. I don't think it should even be a routine either. I just think common sense should be used when deciding if a server has run its course and in my opinion it's usually pretty obvious when that is the case. If I had to put a fairly modest time frame on it, I would say any server thats over 6 years old is pretty washed up and not likely to be getting any new players. Occasionally deleting washed up old servers and adding new ones is a system that I think makes a lot of sense and would probably increase the overall playerbase. Characters can just be dumped on the main cluster so they dont need to be lost. Similar to how Path of Exile's 'challenge league' system works (which is a very good/successful system).

 

 

People put a huge amount of work into their deeds and just wiping that all away would sour a lot of players.

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5 hours ago, Lisimba said:

 

People put a huge amount of work into their deeds and just wiping that all away would sour a lot of players.

 

I have played many other MMOs where I have sunk equal time into them, eventually they had to die as everything dies I just accepted that fact and felt happy for memory I have from it. Don't live for the end goal, your life will be filled with pain and misery.

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11 hours ago, Jeston said:

 

I have played many other MMOs where I have sunk equal time into them, eventually they had to die as everything dies I just accepted that fact and felt happy for memory I have from it. Don't live for the end goal, your life will be filled with pain and misery.

 

There is no need for a server to be wiped though, so that doesn't hold here. And what we "live" for in Wurm is the process of ever improving your environment to your liking, which is much diminished if you know it's going to get nuked on a schedule.

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yeah, that's one of the things that seperates wurm from most of the others, i beleive 90% of us would not be playing this game if it was subject to wipes and i believe that's been true since day one.
Wurm is a home you can build.
I speak of wurm online, you take the usual risks when you join a WU server.
Empyrion has alot of wipes because it's a developing game but at least it has blueprints, a way you can save your creations to import them post-wipe.
We have deed planner, unfortunately it can't be imported.
This is not a problem because Wurm doesn't wipe.
*nudges april 2007 quietly under the carpet*

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I'm surprised wurm hasn't been revamped engine wise yet... talk of changing the combat system over 5years ago and it is still the same today. Wasn't there a Unity project going at some point to convert the game over to a new client/system? Sure opening a new unconnected server brings in some new cash flow but that's only a temp fix for today's problem. Most of the players left Wurm due to how stale it gets after 5months of playing. Combats a chore, epic next to died due to lack of upgrading existing systems. Sure adding a few things is nice but never updating current systems doesn't keep new or returning players for very long after the first "Fresh add on check" most content add ons bring.

 

The game is 13 years old with very little rework on its systems. It's time to upgrade the game instead of adding fluff every few months. Old MMO's that are great are dying off because they never update the system/engine but keep on adding small almost pointless things when it comes to the real problem of why the player base is decreasing with little to no regain.

The combat system doesn't have to be a top of the line action system but something that is more then just standing in range of a target would do wonders. Look at games like Diablo, Albion, and Runescape. Their combat system isn't that grand but it is far better than what wurm has to offer. The default first person system of Unity or any other engine would be far greater then what wurm has now. Just like Mortal online, Minecraft, and Morrowind Elder scrolls 3 are rather basic first person systems but attracts players.

 

The burst of income from WU and having a sponsor should have been more then enough to cover the man power needed to change the games engine. Yes Unity is C++ or JavaScript depending on the client you use both support C# which is a very easy to learn for Java coders. also seeing as Wurm has a small dev team from the start it wouldn't have been a huge deal to replace programmers and shift jobs of the replaced member(s) to a different part of the games development. From what can be seen from the player side, there has been such a misuse of income that I personally am surprised Wurm is still online. I loved playing the game when I first joined back in 2007 to 2016 and I am still to this day comparing other openworld sandbox games to yours. However the game play is so stale and outdated opening a new server won't fix long term cash flow for you guys like upgrading and polishing the game would have if you would of figured that out years ago when most of the player base was asking you guys too.

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Worst case scenario:

If Steam version fail, and investors decide to shut it down, how it gonna affect WO version? WO go down too, or will be independent like WU?

Edited by Wilczan

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7 hours ago, Wilczan said:

Worst case scenario:

If Steam version fail, and investors decide to shut it down, how it gonna affect WO version? WO go down too, or will be independent like WU?

worst or best? 
 

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8 hours ago, Wilczan said:

Worst case scenario:

If Steam version fail, and investors decide to shut it down, how it gonna affect WO version? WO go down too, or will be independent like WU?

 

PRETTY much a good chance, unless Rolf was able work out being able to hold full rights to Wurm but the sponsor gets xx% for so many years with contract renewal options. But I am sure the rights were sold out right when the sponsor worked out the agreement. Steam most likely is the last attempt to keep wurm alive, as rolf said "Wurm unlimited sales dwindled". In the link https://steamdb.info/app/366220/graphs/  you can see somewhere between 200k-500k copies of wurm unlimited was sold worldwide, I think steam takes a 25-30% cut of the selling price which you can see on the price tab what the game is selling for on the allowed market regions. No clue what cut the owning company is taking or putting back into wurm but even with 35% left for Rolf to use on top of what wurm online is making would have been enough for major overhauls on the game with how small the dev team has been. 

Edited by Ronnie
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45 minutes ago, tamat said:

worst or best? 
 

Worst for Steam version.

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18 hours ago, Ronnie said:

 

PRETTY much a good chance, unless Rolf was able work out being able to hold full rights to Wurm but the sponsor gets xx% for so many years with contract renewal options. But I am sure the rights were sold out right when the sponsor worked out the agreement. Steam most likely is the last attempt to keep wurm alive, as rolf said "Wurm unlimited sales dwindled". In the link https://steamdb.info/app/366220/graphs/  you can see somewhere between 200k-500k copies of wurm unlimited was sold worldwide, I think steam takes a 25-30% cut of the selling price which you can see on the price tab what the game is selling for on the allowed market regions. No clue what cut the owning company is taking or putting back into wurm but even with 35% left for Rolf to use on top of what wurm online is making would have been enough for major overhauls on the game with how small the dev team has been. 

This is very interesting, and new input for my previous arguments, in other threads. Let's then assume that WU has sold 300k copies, and that Steam is taking 30% of that income, and adjust the numbers and compare to the amount of WO subscriptions it covers. I will then assume each copy is sold for 28€, and a month subscription is 8€. 70% of 28€ is 19.6€. Then 8€ x 12 months / 19.6€ means 4.9, and so that's the number of copies of WU that has to be sold to account for a one year subscription of WO. 300k / 4.9 is 61250 one year subscriptions, or 6125 ten year subscriptions.

 

Also account for the fact that WU does not have the costs of running servers that WO has, WU is basically running itself. Cutting updates from WU, I think is pretty low, with this in mind. With the same calculations, we can then say with some certainty that WU has made the income of 4083-10208 ten year WO subscriptions (using the numbers 200k-500k copies), and then note that it means ten years of continuous subscriptions every month. This calculation does of course not account for silver sold, but we can say that WU has made between 3.92 - 9.8 million euro in total, which should cover a few dev salaries for some time, and the small amount of work to keep a branch of WU updated now and then. The decision to cut WU from updates is pretty low, pretty low.

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38 minutes ago, Tenniel said:

Let's then assume that WU has sold 300k copies, and that Steam is taking 30% of that income, and adjust the numbers and compare to the amount of WO subscriptions it covers. I will then assume each copy is sold for 28€

https://web.archive.org/web/20171002061903/https://steamspy.com/app/366220

https://web.archive.org/web/20171102105053/https://steamspy.com/app/366220

55-60k owners before it was in a humble bundle for 1 dollar, 300k owners two weeks after. numbers are heavily inflated by the keys that were in a $1 pack with a bunch of other games.

latest steam spy before the owner made it a patreon exclusive thing to check owners https://web.archive.org/web/20180411214455/https://steamspy.com/app/366220 still shows it hovering just over 300k

 

can check out all the steam sales in the past on that website and compare with https://isthereanydeal.com/game/wurmunlimited/history/?stats1=all&stats2=all , majority of the games growth is when the game was discounted atleast 40%, game was hovering around 30k owned when the discounts started happening. everythings gonna seem like a lotta money when you compare the price that 10% of the playerbase paid

 

https://www.allabolag.se/5567297758/code-club-ab there's code clubs financial report if you wanna compare numbers, WU did increase their operating profit quite a bit, but you're kinda overshooting the numbers there

Edited by Oblivionnreaver
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4 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

https://web.archive.org/web/20171002061903/https://steamspy.com/app/366220

https://web.archive.org/web/20171102105053/https://steamspy.com/app/366220

55-60k owners before it was in a humble bundle for 1 dollar, 300k owners two weeks after. numbers are heavily inflated by the keys that were in a $1 pack with a bunch of other games.

latest steam spy before the owner made it a patreon exclusive thing to check owners https://web.archive.org/web/20180411214455/https://steamspy.com/app/366220 still shows it hovering just over 300k

 

can check out all the steam sales in the past on that website and compare with https://isthereanydeal.com/game/wurmunlimited/history/?stats1=all&stats2=all , majority of the games growth is when the game was discounted atleast 40%, game was hovering around 30k owned when the discounts started happening. everythings gonna seem like a lotta money when you compare the price that 10% of the playerbase paid

Very well, then it's numbers that are more humble I'm afraid. The owners graphs you are showing, are going both up and down, I'm assuming it accounts for people buying the game and then asking for the money back? So for every up and down it means that WU is selling in thousands all the time, it's just that people are not keeping the game. Is that correct? So, marketing and selling the game isn't failing, making players keeping it is.

 

Just reading one of the graphs you linked for the period 2018-03-20 until 2018-04-10 I can count to 70k copies returned, approximately. It seems that everyone that bought WU in October 2017 are keeping the game, and after that it's staying at a constant 287k owners, with thousands and thousands of players buying and returning the game every month. Why is this failure then? 

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4 hours ago, Tenniel said:

Very well, then it's numbers that are more humble I'm afraid. The owners graphs you are showing, are going both up and down, I'm assuming it accounts for people buying the game and then asking for the money back? So for every up and down it means that WU is selling in thousands all the time, it's just that people are not keeping the game. Is that correct? So, marketing and selling the game isn't failing, making players keeping it is.

 

Just reading one of the graphs you linked for the period 2018-03-20 until 2018-04-10 I can count to 70k copies returned, approximately. It seems that everyone that bought WU in October 2017 are keeping the game, and after that it's staying at a constant 287k owners, with thousands and thousands of players buying and returning the game every month. Why is this failure then? 

 

Steam spy does not have exact numbers, they sample lots of user profiles and extrapolate from there. The numbers they show go up and down because of this, but likely the real numbers were pretty much constant over that time frame, and what you're seeing there is just statistical noise.

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Alright, if the numbers are that sad for WU, then I fully understand the cutting of updates :)

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On 10/1/2019 at 8:56 AM, MinorArchitect said:

Quick suggestion,

Perhaps when new players join through Steam, they might be only allowed to play on the Steam cluster for a certain period of time, a bit like a Golden Valley situation, but not really. Then after a set amount of time(12-48 hours?) or experience, they could be allowed to play on the OG clusters on a clean slate or whatever the devs decide.

 

++++++++++++++1 billion

 

We need a way to bring players into what is currently there, not create another separate Wurm, only to let the OG servers dwindle until dead....

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You both have been skipping a few pages.. stating that rmts are a no-no thing on steam... and wo wants IN on the steam platform.. have to agree and play by their rules to happen..

If you want more people here... spread the word about WO, if you are part of gaming forums/networks.. link your niarja profile and wo site, let people know wo exists out there..

As for steam.. unless somebody lurks into the survival/open world/sandbox sections.. there's nothing else to pull more than the curious into the steam release.

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we also  have to remember, if 10,000 of that 300,000+ WU owners decide to try out the steam release for the online server(s) but don't sub because it's "free to play" and the server lags or disconnects a lot. The games steam rating will drop real fast and be very hard to recover as over time there will always be players that join and down vote because it was to hard for them to understand or stick with. So unless the steams server is going to be far stronger then any of the servers live now. Seeing as one server can not handle 300 players on at a time, WO is not ready for steam.

Edited by Ronnie

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36 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

we also  have to remember, if 10,000 of that 300,000+ WU owners decide to try out the steam release for the online server(s) but don't sub because it's "free to play" and the server lags or disconnects a lot. The games steam rating will drop real fast and be very hard to recover as over time there will always be players that join and down vote because it was to hard for them to understand or stick with. So unless the steams server is going to be far stronger then any of the servers live now. Seeing as one server can not handle 300 players on at a time, WO is not ready for steam.

 

Why should 10.000 people try out WO Steam? Especially if they own WU which is completely free forever if you got a copy of it 

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