Rolf

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4 minutes ago, MrGARY said:

 

Isn't steamwo going to have different features than ogwo that clearly don't apply to ogwo?  I got the impression from Rolf's thread that there would be differences regarding skilling or how skills/premium will work.  I know Samools thread says the aim is to not have many differences for now, but even epic has a totally different skilling system and it is the same exact game and yet we see epic constantly abandoned as well.  So again how do we know that development for steamwo will or will not separate further and further from ogwo a few years from now leaving ogwo abandoned and everyone that stuck with ogwo gets an "oh well, we changed our minds on what we said a few years ago", or that ogwo gets forced into steamwo which could mean removing core elements of wurm like rmt or forcing the skilling system change on a pre-existing system like what was done to epic?

Just like epic uses the same codebase, and jackal uses the same codebase, they're the same servers just with different features, not different code bases.

 

Wurm Unlimited was a separate standalone spinoff game. It was not the exact same code and the work required maintaining two code bases. 

 

When we restart wurm servers for maintenance, Steam servers will go down too, when we update, the updates will come to the Steam servers too .

 

It's the exact same servers, just on a separate cluster with a Steam client instead of the wurm launcher we use externally. 

 

As for questions about "what if the game changes a few years from now?" It's impossible to answer, Wurm has changed over the past ten years and will change in the next ten years too. It's changed before, will change before Steam, and will change after Steam. 

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19 hours ago, MrGARY said:

 

thats ok but maybe its hard to understand im asking a question about how will the future of ogwo be secured and not end up the same as an actual example and not trying to fear the feelings or whatever your broken words are trying to say.  i pay a premium and upkeeps and i want to know if im wasting my time when the future of wurm might be elsewhere

What's that old quote? I think it goes like this..... "Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me". How many times over the years had CC broken promises? What makes anyone believe they won't break yet another one again?

 

The thing about this whole thing is that there are ways to still have a WU revenue stream. Consider selling DLC, sure it's a broken promise too but at least there is a path forward especially if you explain how things have changed. 

 

The problem with the broken promise is that when it was originally offered that all updates would go to WU (and first) it was suggested that better revenue positive choices were out there instead of just one price and updates forever. The same customers who are the recipients of the broken promise pointed it out.

 

Humble bundle offered WU for $1 at one point that I recall. Was that a legitimate and approved arrangement? I ask because I have a Humble Bundle subscription and I don't want to support a company that is doing illegal things. If it was a legal bundle then I must question who the wise guy was who decided a $1 bundle offering was a good idea?

 

13 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Your quote misses a lot of the context shared, but essentially the steam launch is just a new cluster. It's not a completely different game. It's the exact same as when we launched pristine and release, just accessible by steam.

Well if this is truly what will be available at release on steam then I suspect it's going to be a complete failure. I actually hate to say that, despite my other posts.

 

You aren't giving people ANY real reason to buy the new product other then it's connected to Steam. Do you really believe that's enough to warrant a purchase or a subscription?

 

The biggest problem with WO is it's too much the same. Every server is the same. All opportunities to play the game in WO are essentially the same unless you go to Epic which has been abandoned in a largely broken state. 

 

You guys need to learn that people like variety. That's one of the key lessons that you can learn from WU. Give people choices and then those who want the long grinds can have them while those who want more casual play can have that as well. Make some servers about survival, volcanic events, harsh weather etc. That might increase your numbers significantly.

 

If all you are offering is the Freedom experience but connected to Steam then why do you realistically believe any significant number of people will join WO-on-steam especially when your current WO offering has been going downhill in terms of population for years now?

 

Please tell us there is more to the steam product then it just being WO on steam!

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Minus a few tweaks the decision to move to steam is simply exposure within the Steam platform. 

 

We arent seeking for existing WO players from the existing servers or WU players to "buy" the steam platform version, it's simply another cluster on the existing server, it's not really a new system. 

 

Wurm is a sandbox game about player creativity, Jackal includes many aspects you've mentioned and while it does need some tweaks, it's not seen a huge influx, diversity and adding a ton of new dev work on features that make the game vastly different to balance or manage is not something we're looking at in this moment. 

 

The biggest driving factor is exposure and utilising the Steam recommendations, Steam has a massive userbase with people looking for deep and complex sandbox games, so that's our target. Polish the existing mechanics, add some depth to others, and provide what the current Wurm experience is. We arent seeking to create a competing product. 

 

3 hours ago, Nappy said:

The thing about this whole thing is that there are ways to still have a WU revenue stream. Consider selling DLC, sure it's a broken promise too but at least there is a path forward especially if you explain how things have changed. 

 

With the way the game works and modding, DLC is not feasible, would DLC be server based? Client based? Would every player need the DLC purchased in order to play on the server? 

 

3 hours ago, Nappy said:

The problem with the broken promise is that when it was originally offered that all updates would go to WU (and first) it was suggested that better revenue positive choices were out there instead of just one price and updates forever. The same customers who are the recipients of the broken promise pointed it out.

 

While we stated it was our goal, such goals are far from promises and continuing to frame this as a broken promise belies the support for 3-4 years on a one time payment. One price for such a deep and complex game is good, but does not provide continued revenue for further updates, forever was never in the goals.

 

3 hours ago, Nappy said:

Humble bundle offered WU for $1 at one point that I recall. Was that a legitimate and approved arrangement? I ask because I have a Humble Bundle subscription and I don't want to support a company that is doing illegal things. If it was a legal bundle then I must question who the wise guy was who decided a $1 bundle offering was a good idea?

Humble bundle was a legitimate investment, and provided a good turnover, the problem isnt with that but the ongoing illegal key reselling, developers shouldn't be blamed for selling via bundles because of piracy. 

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1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

The biggest driving factor is exposure and utilising the Steam recommendations, Steam has a massive userbase with people looking for deep and complex sandbox games, so that's our target. Polish the existing mechanics, add some depth to others, and provide what the current Wurm experience is. We arent seeking to create a competing product. 

 

Excuse me if I may have missed the answer somewhere else, but what makes you think this will give the game more exposure?

WU is already on Steam, considering WO and WU use the same Discord for people to gather and how the internet works,

anyone who plays WU should know WO exists, so you pretty much have had all the "Steam exposure" you could get by now I "think" ...?

Or is it just the cheapest possible way of "mass" advertisement?

Unless you count on being listed as a "new" game again and hitting the front page for a day or two... but other than that I have a really hard time to wrap my head around this exposure concept. ._.

 

And don't get me wrong - I'm just curious - I welcome the enthusiasm and possible changes coming.

I plan to play on both sides of the WO coin if the Steam Version makes it easy enough, simply because I told a few friends and we want to roll a settlement together (they want a fresh server start though), but that is tied to some things that most likely can't be answered yet.

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4 hours ago, Milkdrop said:

 

Excuse me if I may have missed the answer somewhere else, but what makes you think this will give the game more exposure?

WU is already on Steam, considering WO and WU use the same Discord for people to gather and how the internet works,

anyone who plays WU should know WO exists, so you pretty much have had all the "Steam exposure" you could get by now I "think" ...?

Or is it just the cheapest possible way of "mass" advertisement?

I think that's been question number 1 since the start. We already get a lot of people asking in streams what the difference is between Online and Unlimited.

But really I guess that's the thing, when you think about it, Steam is one of the biggest marketing platforms you already have on your PC. How many people install Steam within the first ten program installs of their new OS or PC? A lot of people do.

Traditional advertising didn't work, we know that now. I still think we at least need to give it a shot.

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I always pick standalone clients whenever possible, sometimes skip games completely because they only have steam platform to install/login into the game.

I don't 'hate' steam per say.. but I have no reason to like it, I do not use anything steam-related, other than the game itself.

First years wurm had posts, news, interviews, stands somewhere.. but now.. nobody knows the game exists, hopefully.. that changes with more publicity somehow, steam page/category link is just 1 of many options, this shouldn't be the only solution making devs stop promoting the game further.

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1 hour ago, Madnath said:

I think that's been question number 1 since the start. We already get a lot of people asking in streams what the difference is between Online and Unlimited.

But really I guess that's the thing, when you think about it, Steam is one of the biggest marketing platforms you already have on your PC. How many people install Steam within the first ten program installs of their new OS or PC? A lot of people do.

Traditional advertising didn't work, we know that now. I still think we at least need to give it a shot.

 

Though thats not exactly what I was asking, I am curious why WO on Steam would equal more "exposure" for WO when we already have WU, which pretty much should lead anyone to WO in a short or long run if they would remotely care for it.

I just have a hard time to believe that there is so many WU players that don't know about WO given the circumstances that it would make such a huge difference.

Also I would find it odd if WO Steam in any way could "advertise" for the other WO, given it would steer people away from WO Steam (not sure if Steam would be happy with that?), though that may happen on it's own just by people chating but yea...

 

The only meaningful thing that sprang to my mind is that -maybe- WO Steam will be listed as a "new" game release again... but will it land on the frontpage in the game slider or just drown in the load of RPG Maker and odd Hentai Anime games in the "New Games" tab '(or w/e it is called in the english steam, I run the german one)?

Personally I ignore that tab and check the "Topseller" one, if I am remotely interested in anything possible new anyhow - but getting listed there is probably not that easy.

 

I don't know if there is any realiable statistics out there about what people install on a new PC first or in what order, but for me anything gaming comes last as it is usually the biggest time sink of the whole process... unless you just move a drive. ^_^

But thats not really the point of the discussion either, it's without question that there is a lot of people using Steam - no matter in what order they install it.

I am curious how many people seriously miss out on WO because they only find WU on Steam and then go like "nah" but would maybe have said "yah" if it had been WO.

Guess that is to be seen when it happens then...

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On 11/24/2019 at 7:36 AM, Milkdrop said:

 

Excuse me if I may have missed the answer somewhere else, but what makes you think this will give the game more exposure?

WU is already on Steam, considering WO and WU use the same Discord for people to gather and how the internet works,

anyone who plays WU should know WO exists, so you pretty much have had all the "Steam exposure" you could get by now I "think" ...?

Or is it just the cheapest possible way of "mass" advertisement?

Unless you count on being listed as a "new" game again and hitting the front page for a day or two... but other than that I have a really hard time to wrap my head around this exposure concept. ._.

 

And don't get me wrong - I'm just curious - I welcome the enthusiasm and possible changes coming.

I plan to play on both sides of the WO coin if the Steam Version makes it easy enough, simply because I told a few friends and we want to roll a settlement together (they want a fresh server start though), but that is tied to some things that most likely can't be answered yet.

could be bad advertisement if players dont like it or fail on the same way than wu reteining players because QoL means make the game easier...

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With steams changes to its front page most of steam wont ever see wurm anyway no matter what they do they will only find people who like sandbox style games and the likes but most of them already own wu to begin with and most likely will not shell out for a monthly sub and instead just bad mouth it as an "cash grab" attempt after dropping support for wu(stories like that are always fun to read)

Oh wu is 79% off right now on greenmangaming or 75% on steam incase anyone wants it >.> see funny thing is grey market key sellers bought crap tons of humble bundles to try and sell wu and even at 99 cents they cant seem to sell them or even lower then that now a "legit" store chrono.gg tried selling wurm at 5 bucks not to long ago doubt many copies where sold then

So wurm unlimited has been part of 4 recent bundles ranging from 1 dollar to 4 dollars per bundle at 12+ games per bundle and still no influx of players  it goes to show that the audience who wants a game like wurm and has games like it in order to get wu recommended on steam already owns the game most of the time or just doesnt care or plays wo

The only way wurm on steam is gonna go big is if its paired with some proper steam pushing of the front page on the store page big banner style not just somewhere in the list of new releases next to that get gc's sponsored streamers to plug the dam thing and you might get a few more players the expected out of it

Also illegal key reselling isnt your issue as to why wu isnt profitable its just that the pool of users who wanted wu has dried up and the stream of incoming users is so small that you deem it not profitable

"With the way the game works and modding, DLC is not feasible, would DLC be server based? Client based? Would every player need the DLC purchased in order to play on the server? " this is kinda funny to see really DLC can work just fine and how would it work? Simple have both server and client dlc types, Server dlc's would be content patches new things that are not easily moddable or are nice things to have but no mods for it exist, Client mods could be different models(visible for everyone) for existing gear or client side only or maybe more voice lines. As for the last no? I guess you never really looked into how a lot of games handle dlc in multiplayer have you? paradox is a great example of this where the host requires the dlc in order for dlc content to show up in the game and clients without dlc can connect they just cant use dlc content to create their kingdom/empire/starting setup so im wu's case it would fall into the first of the 2 i listed above and that is server dlc

Saying that dlc is not feasible is just saying "We are lazy and you are expecting us to actually do work? who do you think we are? cdpr? HA" The excuse of "this is impossible" gets brought up so often now days on almost anything oh the stronghold on jackal being bland "oh we could not change it when it went life because of the small tiny change it might screw up" well thats why you spin up a clone of it and test it out to make sure the jackal server is fine
Or about any number of other amazing idea's or obstacles that if implemented or cleared would be a great boost to wurm we just hear the "This is impossible because *insert generic ###### reason here*" Sorry but there are 2 man indy dev teams who pull the impossible out of their ass time and time again you have the dev team of factorio a 10 man in 2015 now 20 big dev team creating amazing things in a game more complex then wurm and you dont hear them saying "oh its impossible" when something "hard" is asked no you hear kovarex going "hey ill add this to my list of experiments and see if we can do it" and then a few months later "So guys you know that thing you mentioned? Ya that works its a thing" or klonan their pr and community and support manager looking at the community and seeing small little things that could work well as features but dont make it to the game and turns them into mods most are simple mods you and i could make in an afternoon but thats the idea(granted now days some are quite complex)

You got a group of people who love their game giving it their all and refusing to say "its impossible" until the very end and then still going "Hey this might work if we remake this other part of the code" and still getting it to work they love their game they show their passion they dont go "Oh im to busy in real life to work on wurm much so this project im working on is going to take a lot longer" no you got people who love what they are doing and arent just doing it for the sake of being part of a gentleman's club

Anyway back to DLC you know what a dlc could be? A mod pack of all the most popular mods and its a seasonal pass style purchase where first season you got a bunch of mods that everyone loves all slapped into 1 dlc with the promise that those mods will work on patch day as they are now officially dev supported and every year a new "season" pass is added(make them like 5 bucks or something or 10) with more mods and this will purely be to keep mods working on newer versions its still up to the mod devs to make new features and then send those versions over to the dev in charge of this but that dev will spend time checking mods before wu updates and either sending off what needs to get fixed or fixing them(incase the mod author isnt around anymore) and when he or she isnt doing this they can be working out on other projects or be working on keeping wu up to date with wo and being the single dev in charge of releasing these once every 6 months or yearly updates to wu to bring wu up to date(if its yearly miss out lass 3 months of content) with wo changes
And oh look you got a yearly income stream you got wu updates you got a dev who either works on wu or on wo stuff you got a community that is happy and is supporting the game and most of all YOU GOT MORE MONEY  So how is this not a win win? The only thing is you gotta need to find someone who is passionate about WU and wants to either volunteer for it if you dont wanna pay him or her for it or be part time or what ever thats up to you but i can think of a few modders who would love to become that person and get access to being able to do that kinda stuff 1 person who is really vocal about certain things @Sklo:D would maybe love that or maybe someone else who knows but in the end of the day you get more money wu gets updated by a passionate dev and every player is happy 

And most of all you wont get the wu playerbase bitching at steam wo launch window saying "They dropped support for their other steam version dont play this they will drop this as well im sure of it" and that will scare people away as a lot of people have been burned by indy devs disappearing(cube world prime example) or cash grabs and what not and you dont want that to be the case

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3 hours ago, wipeout said:

...
Oh wu is 79% off right now on greenmangaming or 75% on steam incase anyone wants it

...

gg deal

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