tamat

Lets talk about traders

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12 hours ago, Keenan said:

Yes... traders...

Oh, nothing...

Edit: Ah heck with it. I've never liked traders. Never thought they're good for much besides "abuse". Just some personal feelings.

LOL,   at times GREAT sense or humor I have to admit!

 

12 hours ago, tamat said:

supposing traders are removed, wondering if half of the deeds on freedom will gone because are trader deeds and probably lot of cheap silver on trade because reimburse

They'll survive.. I'd expect more than 60%+ to survive even if they were 99.99999% depending on trader/s for the upkeep.

It's just a passive income, but not the only reason some places stand around.

 

7 hours ago, Wiolo said:

I myself like to make the occasional silver off of traders, It's good money that floats around that someone else would have gotten hunting or selling. Why don't you just start a petition to ban public traders? That would prevent alt abuse.

The whole concept of traders is an odd one, it makes making money that floats in the kingdom coffers too easy, I would like to see a boost to coins from hunting/selling if all traders were removed. And a refund too for those who barely had them for much time. But then again, nobody on Xanadu can hunt long enough to empty the kingdom coffers. All that money would just keep piling and piling up. I can't really come up with a concrete solution to this. Because hunters nowadays can't keep up.

Also, lets shame people for trying to make money in a game where you need a lot of it.

What? Thought it was private traders who were mainly causing the abuse... LUL😆

 

7 hours ago, Wiolo said:
Spoiler

I myself like to make the occasional silver off of traders, It's good money that floats around that someone else would have gotten hunting or selling. Why don't you just start a petition to ban public traders? That would prevent alt abuse.

The whole concept of traders is an odd one, it makes making money that floats in the kingdom coffers too easy, I would like to see a boost to coins from hunting/selling if all traders were removed. And a refund too for those who barely had them for much time. But then again, nobody on Xanadu can hunt long enough to empty the kingdom coffers. All that money would just keep piling and piling up. I can't really come up with a concrete solution to this. Because hunters nowadays can't keep up.

Also, lets shame people for trying to make money in a game where you need a lot of it.

Um.. I'm not after anything.. neither is the thread I believe.. it just kind of ... gone that way here and there... I don't believe traders are that fair source of income... but also for the moment they are still quite loved so.. I personally do not believe anything will change no matter what.. (what I mean.. you need to spend or make some silver.. invest on trader.. chill for a year~ to get the money back.. and than you just get free money.. get a few.. you soon do not need to spend at all for premium or upkeep.. sweet deal..)

Now imagine.. you usually spend xx euro every yy month/s that's some expense on your side.. now imagine.. you get to play for free after 1st or 2nd year.. which in wurm playtime is ~nothing with accounts on average being ~5year old to 10+ IRL years old...

You can start with just making .... to sell than jump on the lets not pay at all wagon. Long term.. this only harms the game.. but at the start it was nice cash source.... well.. if players were buying traders with actual RL money instead of however else generated silvers...

There are enough ways to make coins... super easy at that... plenty of ways.. if your goal is to make a few free euros today or this month in general.. you'll still have to work for it.. more or less.. but it's so easy if you play for that.

 

2 hours ago, tamat said:

look like a bull##it like fishing will be happen again

I'd love a thread with Tamat's fishing feedback.. almost sure it will make my day if that happens. 🤔

 

1 hour ago, jonsnow said:

The whole new player experience just really needs to be redone.

hm.. maybe..... I'd recommend whining about your new experience and having in mind or considering the LOOOOOOOOONG term gameplay.. as you're new.. but some players have 10years/+ in this game.. how do you imagine they could keep an edge over new player's puny skills?

1 hour ago, Oblivionnreaver said:
1 hour ago, Odynn said:

I hope you are prepared to fully reimburse the players who have invested coins in them if you intend to further nerf them into the ground...

haven't you already gotten reimbursed by the money given out by the trader lol

I believe that to be true.. but this will pinch people in times more than source pans did.. and there was so much cra* flying around back than....

 

1 hour ago, jonsnow said:

no reason to reimburse them the purpose of them was so you could have easy access to the goods without having to travel far.  Yes, very expensive...  maybe a partial reimbursement?  It was never intended for them to be lucrative.

true and NOT.. majority bought them to suck the coins out of them, not to be lazy, well.. being lazy and getting coins was also a goal... but you get what I mean... some places just wanted to offer easy access to trader/deed/merc contracts/etc.. shop goods at convenient spots on the map, as that being the only purpose/unique, small amount of the existing traders I believe/.

 

51 minutes ago, Odynn said:

Unlike people who farm uniques or rares+, traders give ###### money.

That's a whole lot of another ****storm of it's own.. greed for irons... *coughs* golden coins.. fine..

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I recently bought a trader just to not have to purchase coins for upkeep... So don't assume everyone has a 900% return of investment, just because some mess up the game. A lot of times it is not the system that is broken, it is the rotten people who do everything thinkable and unthinkable to abuse the system.

A crappy instruction can yield good results with good application,

a good instruction can yield horrid results with bad application.

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I like how certain players entitle them self for pretty much everything for years and keep screaming abuse if they are not the only ones benefiting from whatever thing is subject at the time.

 

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3 hours ago, Finnn said:

Um.. I'm not after anything.. neither is the thread I believe.. it just kind of ... gone that way here and there...

Oh sorry, I wasn't talking to you.
And I believe I made it pretty clear that making money from traders is too easy as opposed to other methods of gaining coin from the kingdom pool.

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Some change for traders could be not give money but get increse the taxes paid to upkeep, lets says to around 60-80%, dont move to buy special things is nice (we dont even need move for tar, clay, sand or other things).  Even if money from trader pools goes to rare coins probably everybody can get them (still people with more skill will get more easily)

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Traders require an active premium player in local in order to work and a functioning ratio. Both of these things you will almost never run in to on most starter towns. They are intended for use at deeds by active players.

So some prevention measures were put in, but just poorly.

Edited by Wiolo

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48 minutes ago, Wiolo said:

Traders require an active premium player in local in order to work

 

They actually don't

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My trader on Desertion give me like 1s a month. Deed upkeep is over 8s (1 templar included).

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I can paste some drain data from my app later, but on celebration i average 4.5s a month.  I can go back years and show the difference between now and the nerf as well.  Contrary to the socialist on the forum, 10% goes back to the trader and the other 90% goes to my upkeep.  I dont profit anymore, havent for nearly 4 years.  Guess what, that means you foragers are taking the coins i put back in the kingdom pool. Are you putting all of it into upkeep?  How many rares have you bought?

 

Players also love to camp the sell-to-token feature as well as use free alts to conjure coins through foraging.  Both these take coins from the kingdom coffers, which is where traders get money from.  If there are no coins in the coffers when selling to a token, traders will be getting very little money.

 

I can confirm we get far less from traders because of this, but Trader draining was never intended for income.  I'll take what I can get as long as I can get it, no use complaining considering sit does no good.  #missingmyfountainpacks

 

I despise socialism and to suggest something is not fair because others capitalize on something before you is absurd. I have no issue telling yall I drain traders, at one point I had four of them.   I stopped buying them when roi became nearly a year.  At this current time I control one, and am content with the upkeep assistance it provides.

 

Have a great and hypocritical day nay sayers.

 

Edited by Nomadikhan
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I don't think the traders are healthy in any way in their current form.

 

What they need to do is just give out a set amount of coins each month to deeds with traders on them, and not allow draining anymore.  This would remove the tedium of having to drain them, be fair to everyone and prevent these nasty conversations from springing up all the time.

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17 minutes ago, jonsnow said:

I don't think the traders are healthy in any way in their current form.

 

What they need to do is just give out a set amount of coins each month to deeds with traders on them, and not allow draining anymore.  This would remove the tedium of having to drain them, be fair to everyone and prevent these nasty conversations from springing up all the time.

#socialism

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That's... not even what socialism is. Traders are already a form of wealth redistribution anyway; you don't get more from traders for paying more upkeep. People with large deeds or who buy premium with silver are subsidizing your trader income. 

Edited by darthryan

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1 hour ago, darthryan said:

That's... not even what socialism is. Traders are already a form of wealth redistribution anyway; you don't get more from traders for paying more upkeep. People with large deeds or who buy premium with silver are subsidizing your trader income. 

Socialism - a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

 

That is exactly what he/she is proposing... that traders be regulated so that everyone gets an equal share.

 

There is an alternative, but it's very closely tied to socialism; and that is maybe it's generational thinking.  Today's generations are of mind that by college age they have worked so hard and sacrificed so much they are entitled to things like free healthcare, fair and equitable wages, and erasing of student debts.  American's are dealing with this type of thinking right now.  It's not just American, it's global.  The sense of self-entitlement is mind-numbingly annoying.

 

Let's break this down.

 

I don't think the traders are healthy in any way in their current form.

I don't have one or haven't drained one before so I see this as unfair.  I'm not a capitalist and want things equal for everyone.  (maybe they gave out participation awards in school?)

 

What they need to do is just give out a set amount of coins each month to deeds with traders on them, and not allow draining anymore.  Divide coins equally amongst every trader and govern that no one can drain them, they will be made fairly available.  (Socialist economics is something "millenials" side with in most major surveys on college campuses).  This would remove the tedium of having to drain them defining what something is to everyone and why we need it changed , be fair to everyone and prevent these nasty conversations from springing up all the time socialism

 

If you can't see this for what it is, I'm sorry.  My father had to take a magazine and hand type lines of code for hours into an Atari to play a game.   I had to get off the couch to plug a cartridge into my Nintendo.  My daughter has to click a download button on her phone to play a game.   If the internet goes out I get up and work on my car in the garage, my daughter starts yelling for Mom or Dad to fix it and screams if it's not up in 5min.  Every generation has things easier and thus is required to work less then that of their prior generation.  Each generations sense of accomplishment and what they feel is hard work is different.  Where I see owning a trader when someone else can't is what it is, another player may see it as totally unacceptable.  I own a 2 story 4 bedroom house and 3 cars. is that unfair?  Should you be given equal housing and vehicular accommodation?

 

Entitled socialist thinking already got fountain packs removed, what else do the masses think they need to control for me?  Leave it alone or just remove it entirely, but by Vynora don't change it because you feel it's unfair.

Edited by Nomadikhan

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Again, wealth redistribution is not socialism at all. Socialism negates the need for such programs. Socialism is when the workers control the means of production. If the Wurm economy were socialist, it would mean that the means of production (let's say land, tools, and maybe even accounts) are owned/controlled democratically. Merely moving capital around at a governmental level is not socialism, by any reasonable usage of the word.

 

I don't think it's feasible or necessarily desirable to remove capitalism from Wurm, but "that's socialism" is neither accurate, nor a valid criticism on its own. In general, yes, I do believe that Wurm should be more egalitarian, and reward players for playing the game, rather than investing capital or merely appropriating it after the original owner has moved on. I've also used traders extensively in the past. Currently operating one to offset the cost of my deed. 

 

I'm not going to waste time getting into a political/economic debate on here today, but:

Quote

Every generation has things easier and thus is required to work less then that of their prior generation. 

 

Yes, that's exactly what socialist scholars and economists state as well. If you look at society, though, the actual work hours and requirements necessary to earn an equivalent income have NOT been decreasing. The last victory on that front was the 40 hour work week. Human labor is becoming less and less necessary, yet 40 hour work weeks are still the standard. Everyone I know with a tech/engineering job ends up working more than that. Advances in automation, etc, benefit those at the top far more than they benefit anyone else. I don't think it's crazy to look at addressing those issues by changing the mode of production. 

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14 minutes ago, darthryan said:

Also do you not think that people are entitled to fair wages? wat

 

Define fair?  In what sense?  Should someone out of high school with no real work experience and no college degree earn as much as someone that has years of job experience and a Bachelor's degree?  Nope.

 

Need more background on what you think is fair.

 

Pertaining to traders, socialism isn't just the masses controlling the production, you left out distribution and exchange.  That's where I'm drawing from.  I don't need other players controlling the distribution of coin to traders, it works just fine as it does now.  The whole community does not own my trader, I bought it and planted it, it's in a house I built, it's MINE.  If I get 5c a month or 5s a month, you're not entitled to it, and who are you to demand my trader is changed?

 

I do get where this thinking comes from, take a look here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Sweden

Edited by Nomadikhan

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Ah okay, yeah, fair is definitely subjective but I got thrown off by your wording a bit.

 

Like I said though, traders as they exist are already a form of wealth redistribution. "The whole community" already gives money to your trader, in the form of paying to "the king". The only reason that money goes to you is wealth redistribution. Also, the only one sounding entitled here is you 🙄

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1 minute ago, darthryan said:

Ah okay, yeah, fair is definitely subjective but I got thrown off by your wording a bit.

 

Like I said though, traders as they exist are already a form of wealth redistribution. "The whole community" already gives money to your trader, in the form of paying to "the king". The only reason that money goes to you is wealth redistribution. Also, the only one sounding entitled here is you 🙄

 

hehe, I like discussion!   Nah I'm not entitled, anyone is welcome to buy and plant a trader, while it further spreads the kingdom funds around, I'm good with that.  It is fair that anyone can buy a trader, which as it happens a good bit of the 50s spent is put into the kingdom pool and the rest is available on the trader you bought it from, so the purchaser gets a bit of a refund :P

 

 

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To your edit: social democracy and socialism are completely distinct. Social democracies (like the Nordic model) are capitalist with heavy social programs and wealth redistribution. Socialism is fundamentally incompatible with capitalism. Bernie Sanders and most other "socialists" in the United States advocate for social democrat policies, not the abolition of the capitalist class in favor of a socialist system. 

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1 minute ago, darthryan said:

To your edit: social democracy and socialism are completely distinct. Social democracies (like the Nordic model) are capitalist with heavy social programs and wealth redistribution. Socialism is fundamentally incompatible with capitalism. Bernie Sanders and most other "socialists" in the United States advocate for social democrat policies, not the abolition of the capitalist class in favor of a socialist system. 

It is true, not 100% socialist, some things are similar but not as faithful as pure socialism.

 

Politics aside, I don't feel traders really need changed.  Years ago, when I was making 20-30s a month, I would have to agree, that is obsessive.. but for most peoples 1-2s and even my marginally better 4.5s a month, it's not game breaking.  With my profit, if I actually kept it, I could maybe get 1 decent rare pickaxe each month.,... and how many do I reallly need lol.

 

I think there are other balances to be looked into before ever considering this, such as pvp (which I'll leave to those that actively partake these days, I'm horribly out of it)

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Yeah, I don't think traders are a huge issue right now. If they were I'd probably be less concerned about them being "unfair" and more concerned with the type of gameplay (or lack thereof) that they reward. 

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3 minutes ago, darthryan said:

Yeah, I don't think traders are a huge issue right now. If they were I'd probably be less concerned about them being "unfair" and more concerned with the type of gameplay (or lack thereof) that they reward. 

haha, yeah lack thereof is right.  Pretty anti-climatic dragging items up and down a window XD

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@NomadikhanNice, you changed my mind. The trader cash flow situation isn't as bad as I thought...

Not sure why the whole socialism convo is needed but good points.

Edited by Wiolo

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