LordLouis

Throw me a frikkin bone here

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the largest alliances aren't even accepting new members.  Try joining them, you'll get crickets.  There's hardly any new players on Jackal...  It's all the people who were playing Wurm Online and wanted something fresh/new, and they're so hardcore they're outpacing everyone else significantly.  The grind even with this increase, is still not friendly to casual players.  I hit a wall already and I'm like... hmm... spend 6 hours grinding fight skill to 20 or go play something else...

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come join Expedition hq man we can help ya out and you'll have a good group to play with!

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On 9/10/2019 at 10:54 PM, Wiolo said:

I'm just saying that nobody really asked for Jackal to be a thing. Or any of this, nobody asked for it.

Except - I know at least one person who DID ask for this (or something much like it). And I promise you: the person who asked is no one of influence. They rarely post on the forum, only play occasionally and don't spend extraordinary amounts of money that would in ANY way justify "catering" to them as an individual. 

 

And yet, here's the thing they asked for (or a version of it, anyway) - which tells me that they weren't the only person asking. 

 

You might argue that something else might appeal to more people. You can certainly hold the opinion that Jackal doesn't appeal to you. You can wish the team had spent resources elsewhere.

 

But to say that "no one" asked for Jackal is hyperbole that only serves to undermine credibility.

 

I'm enjoying Jackal. I hope those that do enjoy it continue to play on it and suggest ways to improve it. I hope those that don't enjoy Jackal find something they DO enjoy doing and do it - preferably something other than just complaining. 

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1 hour ago, Kohle said:

But to say that "no one" asked for Jackal is hyperbole that only serves to undermine credibility.

I said that a while ago and forgot about it. 
Maybe I should have made my complaint more in detail, but I was tired that night and didn't feel like starting a storm.

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WAIT WHAT?

@Wiolo"nobody asked for jackal to be a thing" ?

Jackal is a mix of several ideas that were a constant whine on forums.. but all mixed up into a single solution, which is not always/at all what all different whines ask for, but it is what we got instead. Same thing happened with rifts when they appeared.. new enemies, new gear, new event, runes, new enchants, blah blah.. you get the idea.. all that was again mix of several ideas into single one.

Either there is a reason to combo things and work on it that way.. or idk.. don't want to speculate.

 

10 hours ago, Kohle said:

Except - I know at least one person who DID ask for this (or something much like it). And I promise you: the person who asked is no one of influence. They rarely post on the forum, only play occasionally and don't spend extraordinary amounts of money that would in ANY way justify "catering" to them as an individual. 

 

And yet, here's the thing they asked for (or a version of it, anyway) - which tells me that they weren't the only person asking. 

 

You might argue that something else might appeal to more people. You can certainly hold the opinion that Jackal doesn't appeal to you. You can wish the team had spent resources elsewhere.

 

But to say that "no one" asked for Jackal is hyperbole that only serves to undermine credibility.

 

I'm enjoying Jackal. I hope those that do enjoy it continue to play on it and suggest ways to improve it. I hope those that don't enjoy Jackal find something they DO enjoy doing and do it - preferably something other than just complaining. 

It's mostly reused code after all, + new map, new mount, beacon feature and a shop, not sure if we ever got a post with the time frame how much time/resources it took to bring life to jackal from idea to the start.

 

For the restart("give power to the nubs" fans), fighters/explorers and people who wanted new adventure - this is plenty, it's a 'new xanadu'; 

As for decreasing population... maybe something could have been thought of.. to also give people a reason to not be on jackal 24/7, as that seems to tickle things around with the online numbers on the other servers.

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So I tried it again, committed this time, travelled 3 hours away from the spawn area. Some beacons around, rats to kill for pelts, all good for a while. But my opinion hasn't changed.

The beacons got cleared out by the largest alliance, and unless I want to commit more time to brainlessly travelling around, I'm done here now. Nothing to look forward to anymore in this round.

What I could do is pack up, and build a shack in the wilderness further inland. And then repeat this, actually pushing a front. Then I won't be stuck on a deed or wasting endless time that could be better spent picking lint out of my bellybutton getting to the next beacon, clearing it, and then we all go home again, which will successively take more time. And setting up over and over again is pretty dreadful without skills as each move will take a long time again to setup again. Just to hope noone else will close the beacon you went to before you, and force you to move again for naught.

So deeds seems still pretty counterproductive, and getting anything of significance done on Jackal requries stupid amounts of grinding, and then a ridiculous time investment to do it. I got to close one beacon with my alliance mates, and that took hours into the night which honestly doesn't exactly comply with my life schedule.

 

Perhaps the devs will some day respect to learn the players playing time, and compartmentalize the participation you can do in this new Frontier without expecting you have several hours time to achieve one little thing. This isn't even the first iteration of Jackal, it's the alpha phase at best, and I ain't paying to be your play tester. Back to freedom it is. I imagine the scout camps might be fun, for what it's worth.

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10 hours ago, Finnn said:

WAIT WHAT?

@Wiolo"nobody asked for jackal to be a thing" ?

I mean... I just don't know how to respond to that.
I can't tell if you're joking or not. lol

I feel like I should have changed my point to "Nobody I KNOW" has asked for this, and almost everyone I've spoken to says It's dumb. Which sucks... Cause I really want this thing to be a good thing for me.

Edited by Wiolo

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I realize I'm wasting my breath, metaphorically speaking ... but ...

 

7 hours ago, Flubb said:

...unless I want to commit more time to brainlessly travelling around, I'm done here now. Nothing to look forward to anymore in this round. ...I won't be stuck on a deed or wasting endless time that could be better spent picking lint out of my bellybutton ... Back to freedom it is.

 

What will you be "looking forward to" back on Freedom? "Brainlessly travelling around" areas that you know all-too-well with better gear to defeat foes that you've defeated hundreds of times before? If you find that somehow more "respectful" of your playing time, by all means.

 

7 hours ago, Flubb said:

getting anything of significance done on Jackal requires stupid amounts of grinding, and then a ridiculous time investment to do it. ... Perhaps the devs will some day [change the game so that you can play] without expecting you have several hours time to achieve one little thing.

 

Are you new to Wurm?? (That's rhetorical, by the way.) Wurm is the grindiest, slowest, hours-long time sink of a game I have played in thirty-plus years. Everything -- everything -- in Wurm requires "several hours to achieve one little thing." I find it unreasonable to criticize the Jackal content for the same game philosophy as the rest of it. If molasses-slow gameplay isn't your idea of fun -- and I very much understand why someone might find that it isn't -- then Wurm isn't going to be a rewarding experience.

 

Honestly, though? I think more than a few well-seasoned players have forgotten just what it's like to be brand-spanking new to Wurm. It's tough. It was meant to be tough. I liked the challenge then. I'm enjoying it again now. If someone

isn't enjoying it, I'm all for constructive suggestions on how to improve the experience -- that aren't some variation of "make the game easier for the players."

 

I just keep reading, over and over, "I'm not having fun because it's hard and because others are doing the things I want to do myself."

 

Just one more:

 

7 hours ago, Flubb said:

I ain't paying to be your play tester

 

The old "I'm paying, so you need to make me happy." If you like vegetarian and go to a steakhouse, they're not obliged to alter the menu for you. If you go to a vegetarian restaurant and order steak, they're not obliged to cook it for you because "you're paying for your meal." I hate the taste of cilantro. I regularly pay to eat at a nearby mexican restaurant that puts plenty of cilantro into their salsa. I don't demand that they change their recipe. I don't stand in the middle of the restaurant and complain to everyone in earshot that I don't like cilantro. I either don't order the salsa, or I eat elsewhere. If you like a game, play it. If you don't, play something else (or nothing at all).



 

Now, someone will certainly misconstrue my opinion to be that no one should ever say anything bad about Wurm. It isn't. If you have something constructive to suggest, some objective facts to share, I think that's wonderful stuff. I'd like to see more of it. And if something isn't for you, I have no problem with anyone saying that, either. However, it doesn't require you to attack the game (using terms like "brainless" and "stupid") or the developers and staff (for example, accusing them of failing "to learn to respect the players playing time").

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there's a HUGE difference between putting time grinding+building something "permanent" like Freedom versus something being reset in 6 months.. thinking the same gameplay loop is fine when the circumstances are so different is insane

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13 hours ago, Kohle said:

What will you be "looking forward to" back on Freedom? "Brainlessly travelling around" areas that you know all-too-well with better gear to defeat foes that you've defeated hundreds of times before? If you find that somehow more "respectful" of your playing time, by all means.

 

Scout camps, it was literally in that same paragraph. Beyond that, doing what I'd been doing what kept me around without Jackal. Exploring areas I don't know via insanity teleport, working on my deed, working on road projects. These are things rendered moot on Jackal entirely. Doing archaeology is just an ineffective way of getting materials, and everything else resets in 6 months.

 

13 hours ago, Kohle said:

Are you new to Wurm?? (That's rhetorical, by the way.) Wurm is the grindiest, slowest, hours-long time sink of a game I have played in thirty-plus years. Everything -- everything -- in Wurm requires "several hours to achieve one little thing." I find it unreasonable to criticize the Jackal content for the same game philosophy as the rest of it. If molasses-slow gameplay isn't your idea of fun -- and I very much understand why someone might find that it isn't -- then Wurm isn't going to be a rewarding experience.

 

That's fair, but the point is that many people were looking for something that they can use their already achieved grind to put in use for. That's why you righfully ask "So what's back on Freedom for you then?" Except for the Rift Camps, which sound like an interesting addition, there really isn't anything. That's where Jackal feels like a letdown.

The slow gameplay is a problem to me only at the point where it is a lowkey competition with other players stretching over all week, 24/7. Competition is cool if it's encapsulated within a playsession, not when you have to worry about it all day. But that's just me.

 

For some other points:

 

Your subtle change of my quote:

I can play, but it doesn't result in anything meaningful within that time that makes it worth it. It does effectively not result in anything that I can't be doing on Freedom aswell, because the one thing that makes Jackal different is systematically being gatekept.

If you enjoy the regrind, good for you. I did to some extent, too, but I maintain the opinion that a simple new cluster would have done the same and is therefore a flimsy defence for Jackal.

 

13 hours ago, Kohle said:

"I'm paying, so you need to make me happy."

The point is not that I'm not happy, but that Jackal is mostly a rehash of a new server launch and even for something that is planned to be "incrementally improved" (Which basically supports the notion that it's underdeveloped at this point), it's pretty underwhelming. It's barely more than a new cluster, which leads back to my previous point.

 

Most importantly.

13 hours ago, Kohle said:

If someone isn't enjoying it, I'm all for constructive suggestions on how to improve the experience

I think you're upset someone criticises something you enjoy so that you lose perspective here, as is evident in your sophistry of glossing over points in the same paragraph in order to "effectively" employ confronting rhetoric, changing quotes, making assumptions and dismissing criticism as non-constructive because it's not verbosely typed out, so let me reiterate the more significant ones:

 

  • Jackal lacks content to really distinguish itself from Freedom gameplay wise to make the stay worthwhile, over just going back to Freedom.
  • As I alluded in previous posts, this would be alleviated if the stay wasn't such a commitment, like being able to switch clusters on beacons. Just as an additional tidbit.
  • Slow gameplay is one thing, but the current model will effectively have you travel around for hours eventually, doing literally nothing. It's simply not acceptable. I can use those hours building a massive house, or roads, or exploring areas for clues of former residents. Pressing X and waiting isn't gameplay, and that's what I mean with respecting our time. It's not 'what' we are doing in that time, but that anything is being done at all. This is something the game generally lacks in, but Jackal exacerbates it further.
  • Which leads to the last, most important point that has somewhat of a rat tail attached:
21 hours ago, Flubb said:

compartmentalize the participation you can do in this new Frontier without expecting you have several hours time to achieve one little thing.

There's a bit to unpack here, but it means that your participation on Jackal shouldn't be an atomic transaction of "travel hours to the next beacon (It'll be eventually like that), destroy it, travel back".

You'll probably say "but the journal" - stop you right there, also has combat goals with exactly that problem, so no points for you no matter how many wetas you breed on deed.

This point encompasses the most griped at aspect of Jackal: The way crafting is rewarded. It's effectively not at all, despite being a fundamental part of this counter-invasion. This is a glaring oversight, as distributing work is the only way this can effectively happen. If everyone needs to dedicate themselves to fighting, they're all naked.

I'd be happy to do armor and weapons and tools for people all day, hours long, but if I get nothing out of it, I might aswell do that on Freedom. Here's something "constructive": Check a fighters inventory when they're rewarded, every item that has a signature gives the crafter a fraction of the points earned by the fighter.

For what it's worth, I could grind these things out at the spawn and sell them for horrendous prices as it happens right now, and use that money to buy skins from Jackal fighters later on. If I were a market person. As a pure crafter, you're going to be a loner again with no allegiances except to coins though, which just woefully misses the point of "explore new land together" for me. And nevermind crafters who send their stuff around, the teams need deed and base builders, too, and that's what I was stuck doing while others cleared the beacons around me. That's where I draw the line and see too many wrong incentives.

 

And I simply don't care for your tone policing. Harsh criticism is still criticism.

The "attack" is to emphazise how egregious the points I raise are to me, nothing else.

 

Perhaps you could have used your metaphorical breath instead on this: What is it that keeps you around on Jackal except for the experience of the regrind?

Edited by Flubb
"same paragraph", not sentence, strictly speaking, typo (ofc)
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Something that I find pretty nice about Jackal is that it is an easy way to bring players together from all servers. I have seen names there which are familiar to me on the forums but have never laid eyes on these players within the game, much less interacted with them there. For those who are the social types (not particularly myself) this affords opportunities to meet up easily in game, live on the same deed there, go out hunting together, etc, etc.

 

=Ayes=

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On 9/16/2019 at 1:34 PM, Rauros said:


Because soon i won't have any chance to try at that, except if i don't stick with one or THE largest alliance over the server. Easy to understand there's no jackal for an eventual solo player or for small groups.
Btw, i'm very very far from main deed, but beacons around me are just vanishing.

 

In light of my recent post I want to correct myself and say I feel your pain now. There's no running away from it.

 

 

I think in the next round, if it's still not worthwhile, I won't even try to "compete", I'll just sit at the Jackal spawn, dig into a mine and make stuff to sell for cheap made while burning off the sleep bonus, then go back to where things matter. I stewed on this idea I accidentally grazed in an off-hand comment but making a quick buck out of the ever fresh market would at least finance buying the skins from other people, and return some skill ticks that were made strictly on extra SB. Not awfully intruiging or engaging, but realistically the only way for crafters to participate in it.

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On 9/21/2019 at 11:51 AM, Kohle said:

Except - I know at least one person who DID ask for this (or something much like it). And I promise you: the person who asked is no one of influence. They rarely post on the forum, only play occasionally and don't spend extraordinary amounts of money that would in ANY way justify "catering" to them as an individual. 

 

And yet, here's the thing they asked for (or a version of it, anyway) - which tells me that they weren't the only person asking. 

 

You might argue that something else might appeal to more people. You can certainly hold the opinion that Jackal doesn't appeal to you. You can wish the team had spent resources elsewhere.

 

But to say that "no one" asked for Jackal is hyperbole that only serves to undermine credibility.

 

I'm enjoying Jackal. I hope those that do enjoy it continue to play on it and suggest ways to improve it. I hope those that don't enjoy Jackal find something they DO enjoy doing and do it - preferably something other than just complaining. 

Hey i asked for something like this and i post on the forums quite a bit so there are atleast 2 of us ^_^

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On 9/23/2019 at 8:49 AM, Flubb said:

 

I I stewed on this idea I accidentally grazed in an off-hand comment but making a quick buck out of the ever fresh market would at least finance buying the skins from other people, and return some skill ticks that were made strictly on extra SB. Not awfully intruiging or engaging, but realistically the only way for crafters to participate in it.


And here you can find the worst thing done on jackal: i was the first asking if the merchant contracts on jackal carried over or could be transferred to freedom, and after a few hours the devs decided to remove basically all the items that could impose a problem by carry over...and in that attemp they made a great mistake, by removing most of the items that could even get the game some money, including the merchant contracts.
This behaviour could have emerged, at least in my opinion, only because they decided just to remove them and not considering the consequences of this: they rushed for a solution and did wrong, at least, for what i think: i was ready to buy a merchant even if it didn't carried over in other servers, because at start of a new server, people always spend a lot of money into buying things that may get them an edge over others.

Sorry wurm, i've no intention of pay to be your playtester, it should be the other way around, and besides, while it IS a funny server, including the regrind, the hopelessness i found day by day by playing there for achieving even a bit of something, was too much.

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@Rauros I wouldn't even bother with a deed, much less a merchant contract. It's all too ephermal, and any investment you make in either of the former you'll have to offset within 6 months. With a fresh market and huge demand that should be easy enough, but it's needlessly sunk cost honestly, especially if I ran on sleep bonus only. And the idea of making a quick buck is to buy skins from the people I equip with that trade, so it comes back to them in some way. Making a deed and setting up a merchant just takes coins out of the cycle and basically removes it from the fighters purses. The only worthwhile investment is a pelt, if I can't find one myself, which will be likely.

And eventually you need to work with a mailbox anyway. At least I couldn't in good conscience ask people to travel 3 hours back to the spawn to buy the few items I make. More reason to bring the alts and priest them as Vyns. :D

Edited by Flubb
@ failed again

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10 hours ago, Rauros said:


And here you can find the worst thing done on jackal: i was the first asking if the merchant contracts on jackal carried over or could be transferred to freedom, and after a few hours the devs decided to remove basically all the items that could impose a problem by carry over...and in that attemp they made a great mistake, by removing most of the items that could even get the game some money, including the merchant contracts.
This behaviour could have emerged, at least in my opinion, only because they decided just to remove them and not considering the consequences of this: they rushed for a solution and did wrong, at least, for what i think: i was ready to buy a merchant even if it didn't carried over in other servers, because at start of a new server, people always spend a lot of money into buying things that may get them an edge over others.

Sorry wurm, i've no intention of pay to be your playtester, it should be the other way around, and besides, while it IS a funny server, including the regrind, the hopelessness i found day by day by playing there for achieving even a bit of something, was too much.

While I do understand you wanted to buy the contract knowing it would be gone in 6 months, many others would not understand that and we'd be facing issues with everything being wiped and some wanting compensation. 

 

The decision to remove it all was with that in mind, selling only items that are consumed and avoiding any issues entirely.

 

If you have any ideas for consumable items to be sold on the merchant please let me know 

 

P.S. welcome to starting out as a new player too!

 

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10 hours ago, Rauros said:

Sorry wurm, i've no intention of pay to be your playtester, it should be the other way around, and besides, while it IS a funny server, including the regrind, the hopelessness i found day by day by playing there for achieving even a bit of something, was too much.

Rauros, that has been the fate of Wurm players from the first day on (and is not that much different in other games only that they are more boring). There will always be errors, nerfs, balancings, and their corrections, or even misrepairs, will always annoy somebody.

 

I hope you will stay with us, though.

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3 hours ago, Retrograde said:

While I do understand you wanted to buy the contract knowing it would be gone in 6 months, many others would not understand that and we'd be facing issues with everything being wiped and some wanting compensation. 

 

The decision to remove it all was with that in mind, selling only items that are consumed and avoiding any issues entirely.

 

If you have any ideas for consumable items to be sold on the merchant please let me know 

 

P.S. welcome to starting out as a new player too!

 


 The many who won't understand, don't do only because things were not exactly clear at start (and that's why i've asked about the merchant BEFORE buying it, waiting 3 days to understand what could happen). Once you tell EXACTLY what we get when the server is reset, then it's just a matter of knowing the rules and understanding IF the item you buy is worth or not, or else, on your basic reasoning, ANY item, even consumable, is NOT worth in a server that resets every 6 months if you do the comparison with the unlimited time servers: why buy a sleep powder to have just 1h of sleep bonus in jackal, when the skill you gain from it will be reset the next server?

Give us the right informations, and let us understand if the choices we do are good or not.

@Flubb even at this very moment i could use a merchant at spawn point with the stuff i can make to sell. While i'm with you that the next jackal will probably have very, very few deeds on it as you can easily survive even with a small boat carrying just your tools and little stuff, i was able to plant my deed on jackal just by selling once some things i got there: it was just a chance to reinvest, the same for merchant, i'm confident i could repay the whole merchant cost in the first 2 weeks after i placed it.

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While it would be lovely to have all the information for everything fully available up-front, with something as complex as wurm, that just isn't possible (unless you want to go back to stupid long dev cycles, and even then...).  So there will always be after-the-fact changes, when a player runs into something the devs didn't think of.  Yeah, in hindsight, having RL-cash-bought long-term stuff on a short-term server was going to be more trouble than it's worth, but it's easy to see it once you've already seen it.  The new content is there, to play or not, as you wish.  If you take the view that new release stuff is always too buggy for your comfort level (and many players do, not just in wurm), then that's entirely up to you: if it's not fun, don't do it!

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and with this kind of reasoning, a lot of people is leaving the game.
In other instances you can sue someone that do not give you all the important informations about what he's going to buy, but mostly, any customer that find insufficient infos about what he could buy, ends up in going somewhere else.

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9 minutes ago, Rauros said:

and with this kind of reasoning, a lot of people is leaving the game.
In other instances you can sue someone that do not give you all the important informations about what he's going to buy, but mostly, any customer that find insufficient infos about what he could buy, ends up in going somewhere else.

 

Never heard that anybody could sue someone for failures, hidden side effects or properties of software, be they wanted or unwanted. In best case you get SLAs which promise to attempt to restore a wanted or guaranteed behaviour within a period of time, or provide contingency resources in case of failure. To get that, you have to pay real money, not the ridiculously few euros or dollars paid to CCAB by a few thousand subscribers (with real money I mean millions, or even tens of millions).

 

Full documentation is often a piece of work taking nearly as much time as developing software, and requires similar extents of update and maintenance. It is not for free either. Software is not just like a car or a fridge.

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