Gwyn

Rite Journal Goal: Question for the Devs

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10 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Given it's the highest tier with the biggest reward, we've no problem with it being difficult, if some parts are too difficult we can look at adjustments but we arent looking to trivialising it like that would lend. 

when do priest's get a cape?

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Would a good alternative solution be to have missions add to the rite pool

Yes please

Quote

 

combined with a 3-6 month cooldown on actually casting, and a high channelling requirement to cast? 

 

Maybe, but .. we all know that there is at least one player with a long toxic attitude to disrupt community efforts by sniping. That one could understand such a constraint as official entitlement to snipe at least twice or four times a year. Maybe the cooldown time should not be fix, but e.g. 4*(random(rite spells casted in last 2 years)) mths (radom value min 1). That would make it less plannable for a malevolent actor.

Edited by Ekcin

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Retrograde said:

combined with a 3-6 month cooldown on actually casting

You mean a player who has casted the rite can't cast it again within the next 3-6 months?

Edited by Madnath

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30 minutes ago, Madnath said:

You mean a player who has casted the rite can't cast it again within the next 3-6 months?

As if Yellowfinger doesn't have batteries, this guy is prepared and that wont stop him.

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4 hours ago, Retrograde said:

More that the goal isnt being removed or changed. This isn't my decision, and has come after discussion with the dev team. We're aware that there's a bottleneck, and that people are currently competing for essentially 2 casting slots (Xan and Indy) which doesn't seem reasonable. 

 

What I seek to do is find a decent ground that helps eliminate the bottleneck of so many priests wanting to achieve this goal as well as help the smaller servers get their casts too. Something that removes this need of being on at the right exact time because there's more opportunities. 

 

For the record, we've seen no one cast it twice, which tells us it's just a matter of more people wanting to get the goal than anything else. 

Can you guys see who is working to fill the pool vs who is casting it though? Can you guys see who is casting multiple times with different alts?

 

You seem to think people are mad because someone is sitting there intentionally stealing the casts why because. No, the problem is a group who needs it works for it and then another group steals it without putting the effort. Or maybe 2 groups or more put in the effort but only 1 benefits.

 

The goal does not reward effort. It rewards who can be online longer/who can be more lucky/who can have less of a life. Just like the rifts goal. This seems to be something the staff seems to be really fond of and your player base is telling you we hate it.

 

Stop it!

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2 hours ago, Niki said:

As if ######### doesn't have batteries, this guy is prepared and that wont stop him.

Maybe. My impression is that that guy is crazy for getting his name at the line "<name> casts Rite of Spring"

 

I may be wrong here, I am quite new in that stuff, and my priest never came even close to casting a global spell, and is not premed right now. I don't know the benefits of repeatedly casting a global spell. But what are the advantages of casting that spell again and again, disrupting events, pissing off lots of players? Looks like pathological vanity or other mental issue to me. .

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Posted (edited)

Retrograde please stop adding to the fire with points that are not applicable to the problem presented to you or else your pee pee will be gone before you realize it.

There is nothing more I feel I can add that Gwyn and Angelklaine have already added. Give us a goal people can work very hard towards that can't be stolen underneath our feet.

Edited by Wiolo
Added more to the sentence. More precise
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Sounds like I'll better brute force the bulk of players through now before things escalate.

 

I'm literally praying for your peen, Retro.

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On 8/14/2019 at 8:56 AM, Retrograde said:

More that the goal isnt being removed or changed. This isn't my decision, and has come after discussion with the dev team.

 

It might be worthwhile to actually articulate why it wont be changed or removed instead of just saying so. If you're adamant on keeping this in the game, explain why. Give us the hypothetical scenario where this is beneficial to keep the way it is.

 

This is one of the very few goals in the game where the player doesn't actually have all the tools by which to accomplish it themselves.

  • Goal to create some nails? I can use my pickaxe, find a vein, smelt the ore and craft the nails. Done.
  • Goal to get to 70 prayer? It's going to be a long and boring road, but after being chained to an altar for long enough, it can be done.
  • Goal to sacrifice a champion creature? It may take a while to find one, but there's plenty of them out there. I can kill it myself, bring it back to the altar, and get the rewards.
  • Goal to hold 100 sermons? I can either make alts to hold the sermons to myself, or work with village mates and do a sermon rotation at the benefit of everyone involved.

Now you look at the global spell goal. Lets say I make 10 alts just to pray and get the global spell charged. At a timer of 30 seconds and each prayer taking 30 seconds, this would require 3,000,000 (3 million) seconds of prayers to achieve spread across 10 alts (300,000 seconds each). That's 5,000 minutes praying total for each alt, roughly 83.3 hours or 3.5 days of consistent prayer. Again, this is me putting 10 alts and 3.5 days of pure time into getting this done.

 

Let's say I spend a week doing this, 12 hours a day, on 10 alts online at all times. Then I go to sleep on the 6th or 7th day, and wake up the next morning to find that someone else had charged the rest of the spell and done the cast. The whole process gets reset to zero and everything I just did to get to my own goal is now gone. This is toxic and will simply turn players in the community against each other. I'll go ahead and just name Yellowfinger. How do people feel about him in general? Are you okay with encouraging that type of interaction?

 

Rites were changed to the 24 hour window to avoid situations where stealing a cast would be frowned upon. However, as soon as that was done, this goal entered the fray and continued the trend of players frowning upon players casting global spells. Individual players have no control over this goal. If someone doesn't have an army of alts, they have even less control over this goal. I struggle to even call this a goal. As others have stated, it's a lottery. It's not a goal, it's a wash.

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*I* got a cast of holy crop in pre-goal (2016-12-19 10:18:08 PM, feel free to confirm on niarja)

 

Could I get that credited?

 

Also, how about we run it that the Devs all get a 50% raise, but only one of them wins their salary per year, drawn from a rigged lottery with a high weight for rolf.  That's fair right?

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On 8/14/2019 at 7:55 AM, nygen said:

Requiring fantastic luck and the goodwill of a population of randoms, who have no incentive to cooperate is not. 

 

Three things....

1.  The population (followers) has no incentive to cooperate because they aren't as desperate for sleep bonus now that they can sail to any server, click a button and refill their sleep bonus anytime RoS is casted anywhere.  

     - This can be alleviated by giving followers *very slim* chance of rewards of things like unique potions, moonmetal lumps, and more common rewards that are better than $#@%!$% 13 QL mushrooms as a result of periodic (the prayers that would give faith ticks if <30 favor) from praying.

2.  The population (priests) are naturally motivated to get the cast done ASAP 

     -  The likelihood of theft combined with the self interest of getting this journal entry fulfilled prohibit any communicative effort with the public to get as many priests to link as possible.  The suggestion of allowing a window for other priests to subsequently cast is a good idea, but it should be limited to a maximum of 10 minutes.  And you should still require 300 favor to cast it.  Not enough time?  ######, you can summon now.

3.  Luck has nothing to do with it if you are actually trying.

 

Look guys.... we can all agree to disagree about how "hard" this is, how "easy" it should be, and you can go on for another 3 pages condemning Retro and the devs for making an attempt to provide new content into a 10 year old game.... but the fact is that this is something you should have to work for, something that is special, and something that should not be achievable overnight.  

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

 a rigged lottery with a high weight for rolf.  

 

Do me a favor.... explain how this is weighted for one player over another?  

Is it weighted for me because I'm spending hours a day praying and you aren't?  

Is it weighted for me because I'm using 10 toons at a time and you're just praying with your priest while you're blacksmithing etc etc with your main going about your daily business?

Is it weighted for me because I play in a certain time-zone where more people are online?

 

How is this "Weighted" for one player more than another?  It is based off of effort, not ping pong balls in a wind-filled box made of plexi-glass.

 

By the way, yes, that IS a serious question.

Edited by Wargasm

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8 hours ago, Sindusk said:

 

It might be worthwhile to actually articulate why it wont be changed or removed instead of just saying so. If you're adamant on keeping this in the game, explain why. Give us the hypothetical scenario where this is beneficial to keep the way it is.

 

This is one of the very few goals in the game where the player doesn't actually have all the tools by which to accomplish it themselves.

  • Goal to create some nails? I can use my pickaxe, find a vein, smelt the ore and craft the nails. Done.
  • Goal to get to 70 prayer? It's going to be a long and boring road, but after being chained to an altar for long enough, it can be done.
  • Goal to sacrifice a champion creature? It may take a while to find one, but there's plenty of them out there. I can kill it myself, bring it back to the altar, and get the rewards.
  • Goal to hold 100 sermons? I can either make alts to hold the sermons to myself, or work with village mates and do a sermon rotation at the benefit of everyone involved.

Now you look at the global spell goal. Lets say I make 10 alts just to pray and get the global spell charged. At a timer of 30 seconds and each prayer taking 30 seconds, this would require 3,000,000 (3 million) seconds of prayers to achieve spread across 10 alts (300,000 seconds each). That's 5,000 minutes praying total for each alt, roughly 83.3 hours or 3.5 days of consistent prayer. Again, this is me putting 10 alts and 3.5 days of pure time into getting this done.

 

Let's say I spend a week doing this, 12 hours a day, on 10 alts online at all times. Then I go to sleep on the 6th or 7th day, and wake up the next morning to find that someone else had charged the rest of the spell and done the cast. The whole process gets reset to zero and everything I just did to get to my own goal is now gone. This is toxic and will simply turn players in the community against each other. I'll go ahead and just name Yellowfinger. How do people feel about him in general? Are you okay with encouraging that type of interaction?

 

Rites were changed to the 24 hour window to avoid situations where stealing a cast would be frowned upon. However, as soon as that was done, this goal entered the fray and continued the trend of players frowning upon players casting global spells. Individual players have no control over this goal. If someone doesn't have an army of alts, they have even less control over this goal. I struggle to even call this a goal. As others have stated, it's a lottery. It's not a goal, it's a wash.

Rifts are pretty bad also, if you actually have a RL job it's literally impossible.

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1 hour ago, Wargasm said:

Is it weighted for me because I'm spending hours a day praying and you aren't?  

Yes, because you can spend those several hours to begin with, wether it would be spent on prayer or not. Because the payoff depends primarily on being online, not doing the actual work. It's not that much of a complex concept unless you try to pigeonhole it into a "just try harder" argument.

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4 hours ago, Wargasm said:

 

Do me a favor.... explain how this is weighted for one player over another?  

Is it weighted for me because I'm spending hours a day praying and you aren't?  

Is it weighted for me because I'm using 10 toons at a time and you're just praying with your priest while you're blacksmithing etc etc with your main going about your daily business?

Is it weighted for me because I play in a certain time-zone where more people are online?

 

How is this "Weighted" for one player more than another?  It is based off of effort, not ping pong balls in a wind-filled box made of plexi-glass.

 

By the way, yes, that IS a serious question.

Well then, I had best give you a serious answer then.

 

So lets cover "effort", the key point of your argument.

 

Playing 10 characters at a time is great.  It works well for those of us who either have a large income, those with a parent/guardian who does, or those who simply choose not to live outside of wurm.  However, someone with less disposable income isn't physically able to invest as much money in the game.  "Oh but I use free alts", well isn't that great; how much did you sink into your rig, since running 10 boxes in any form of efficient manner takes a fair bit of power with wurm.

 

The fact you sink more money into the game gives you an edge, and spending money is definitely *not* effort.  It is a weighted advantage.  If spending money were a sign of hard work, no-one would ever question the worthiness of the rich.

 

Alright, lets move on to time.  Sinking more time into a task is usually a good indicator of effort.  Great.  Except, it's not really all your effort is it?  Because, and here is the fun part, a lot of other people made the same effort as you, indeed combined they probably put in more effort than you by a long shot many many times over.  So why should you benefit when they don't?  Could it be that the system is luck based?  If it wasn't, shouldn't the the large chunk of players who put more time and effort into the cast get it over you?

 

Time zone; yeah, that's probably an advantage (a REALLY tiny one), but the real advantage is knowing people.  Guess what?  That is entirely your own winning charisma and hard work, well done.  Clearly you are someone with many good friends who value you as a person; just like everyone else.  Helps when those friends can log your toons in and grab a cast if you're sleeping when it's charged up too.

 

The key point to take home is that two factors will always give an edge in wurm; wealth, and luck.  Spending more money will give you a clear edge over someone strapped for cash; and generally speaking luck is a large component when it comes to anything with priestly magic in wurm.

 

Your argument essentially boils down to "Wurm is my job, work harder to be successful like me", and the argument everyone else is making is "we don't want to be like you, we want to ENJOY the game and not get slapped by things outside our control".

 

TLDR:-  Work<-------------------------------->Fun; wurm should be at the fun end.  Money and luck play too much of a role to even begin to lay it out.

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Posted (edited)

okay, so you're just making the same gripe that some players make because they envy the ability of fulltime players, when they themselves can only log in for 30 minutes to an hour a day, as their life may (or may not) permit.

 

By that logic, Weaponsmithing needs to be made easier.... etc.

Edited by Wargasm

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2 hours ago, Wargasm said:

okay, so you're just making the same gripe that some players make because they envy the ability of fulltime players, when they themselves can only log in for 30 minutes to an hour a day, as their life may (or may not) permit.

 

By that logic, Weaponsmithing needs to be made easier.... etc.

 

No, my argument is that lets assume you spend your saturday grinding weaponsmithing, but then someone logs in on monday when you are at work and gets all your skillticks because you missed the skilltick lottery window.

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18 hours ago, Wargasm said:

 

 

Three things....

 

3.  Luck has nothing to do with it if you are actually trying.

 

 

If you look at Sindusk's post you will see just how much time "trying" takes. With no granular feedback on how close the cast is, you damn well need to be an insomniac to guarantee results. 

 

This is very much weighted towards luck. I realize how lucky I was to be able to cast in spite of my very strong efforts. Furthermore when I "Got mine" (TM), I essentially stole the work of any others who has been making a concerted effort to pray and then organize a group. 

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On 8/14/2019 at 2:12 PM, Ekcin said:

Maybe. My impression is that that guy is crazy for getting his name at the line "<name> casts Rite of Spring"

 

I may be wrong here, I am quite new in that stuff, and my priest never came even close to casting a global spell, and is not premed right now. I don't know the benefits of repeatedly casting a global spell. But what are the advantages of casting that spell again and again, disrupting events, pissing off lots of players? Looks like pathological vanity or other mental issue to me. .

 

Five dollars says We'd see "yellowtoe" or something like that. Copperfinger. Silverfinger.   There are a lot of colors and appendages. 

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On 8/18/2019 at 1:06 PM, Etherdrifter said:

Also, how about we run it that the Devs all get a 50% raise, but only one of them wins their salary per year, drawn from a rigged lottery with a high weight for rolf.  That's fair right?

 

So, for most of them, no change to how much they get paid now, then?

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On 8/18/2019 at 8:41 PM, Niki said:

Rifts are pretty bad also, if you actually have a RL job it's literally impossible.

 

It really isn't, unless you consider being unable to go to every single rift unplayable.  Literally.  Dude.  Like, schwaaa.

 

I'm more of a casual these days, and my day job is more than full time.  I get to go to a rift from time to time, and I'm fine with that - they come around to my evenings and weekends often enough that I don't get bored.  If it's really that much of a problem, make rifts open on a much shorter timer, and automatically close after 12 hours (or whatever) if not closed by players.  Probably want to reduce the land / tree damage a bit, tho.

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Rifts have nothing to do with the global cast issues. Please keep that out here.

 

The 100 rifts goal is not even hard. As a relative newbie, I went to my first rift no earlier than Feb-19, and my recent rift goal count for Destination Unknown is 45/100. While it is unlikely that I accomplish that goal this year, it won't take much of 2020 to do it. I consider it ways easier than e.g. the 500 recipes, and much less work than the 25 veins. Every goal, though, can be done if you put enough effort into it. 

 

The criticism of the global spell goal is not that it is hard. The criticism is that it is so aleatoric, for some possibly exclusive forever, no matter which effort they put into it. The criticism is further that the goal is divisive, turning groups of players against one another, encourageing antisocial and assholy attitudes, rewarding psychopaths and psychopathic behaviour.

 

In my opinion, the devs need to address that criticism. They may judge about the complaints against other goals as they think it is right. In my opinion they should ignore them and work on something more significant.

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The main problem is sniping, and that with journals and how difficult it is already to complete them, it can get extremely frustrating to be stuck on a single item (such as a global cast requirement) and have that taken from you because someone else beat you to the punch.  We should be encouraging more cooperation, not just making things more difficult and not really addressing the main issue.   Retro, that's what your plan is basically doing, it won't fix the sniping issue, but it will make the requirement itself more difficult.  That doesn't really help the situation.  It does absolutely nothing for it.  I'd recommend something more akin to a window where where someone initiates the global cast of a spell, there is a period of time where other groups can assist in boosting the spell as well.  You can make a requirement that it must be a full link of a certain amount of priests, and that it either shortens the wait for the next casting, or just slightly boosts the spell itself.   Just something that encourages cooperative work between people so we have people encouraged to work together again and not just sniping each other.  Our community is our strength, we need our community to be strong and together.  Without that we're basically fighting each other for any little thing we can get.

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Posted (edited)

Well dang, now that I have learned that all priests linked are rewarded with the journal goal, it seems a lot less bad to me.

System still sucks though and requires you to be at the right place at the right time which sucks. Like, it sucks so much, please help me. My face hu rac

Edited by Wiolo

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On 8/14/2019 at 1:44 AM, Retrograde said:

Having missions fill favour pools will help smaller servers work towards their own cast, and the requirement of 90 channelling and cooldown will discourage people sniping it using a throwaway priest as the actual caster. 

Pretty sure this will just be small servers grinding out missions and praying  then people come from the larger servers cast it and leave so we can go back to grinding more missions and prayers for that "someday it will be us cast".

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