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Gwyn

Rite Journal Goal: Question for the Devs

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1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

Not to jump in with all this, there's valid concerns and such, but I feel the biggest thing is most priests feel like they're doing the bulk of the work, which is fair. 

 

Would a good alternative solution be to have missions add to the rite pool (I believe Oblivionnreaver suggested this, for credits sake) so non priests can help fill it, and they can be available more often without one person breaking their back in doing so? 

 

combined with a 3-6 month cooldown on actually casting, and a high channelling requirement to cast? 

Nerf the Rift one also while your at it, 100 rifts is worse than cast a global spell.

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1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

Would a good alternative solution be to have missions add to the rite pool (I believe Oblivionnreaver suggested this, for credits sake) so non priests can help fill it, and they can be available more often without one person breaking their back in doing so? 

 

combined with a 3-6 month cooldown on actually casting, and a high channelling requirement to cast? 

 

Missions:  Good idea, speed things up.  It's a game, not a long-term multiple PhD life goal.

 

3-6 month cooldown:  Added bonus if you can find a way for us to find the douchier ninjaers' screams.  Good idea for sure.

 

58 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

I dont mean difficulty, I mean requiring 90 skill to even attempt

 

The idea is for hundreds of people to want to join and stay in the game because there's a hope of experiencing endgame within realistic time frames, thus improving the chances of the game having a healthy population in the 4 digits, creating different levels of markets and more community events in the long run.... . 

 

Not trying to troll here, just being direct:  What's with you CCAB staff and coming up with ways to alienate as many people as possible except a handful of veterans and a few resold account holders?  Face it, the 1%ers don't have the best interests of the game in mind.  Think of the other 99%.  Try and have an "elite" 20-30% of the population, that way the other 70% has something to realistically look forward to instead of setting the goals further and further away from them.  If the current 1%ers do their usual shriek and whine, call a whambulance and carry on with making the game fun, not a chore to please a monarchy.

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With this being a high endgame goal, combined with 70 prayer, and huge amounts of work, it's pretty clear the journal is aimed at being completed over 1+ year. 

 

The crafter journal also includes goals such as 99 in a skill, improve a weapon to 70-90ql (I forget) and other high end goals, requiring high skills is part of this journal. 

 

The 70% that has something to look forward to are the other stages of the journal. 

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Oh I thought you were trolling.

 

I think the idea here is to make the goal more fair not make it easier or in your case harder. Making it require 90 channeling would be akin to having the non priest one suddenly have grind ws to 90 and it does not, it has imp a weap to 50ql. There are many skills much easier that you can take to 99. I don't think the request for a fairer system that doesn't have people fighting to be faster at being underhanded, or online at an unknown right time is unreasonable, I do think your idea is unreasonable.

Edited by SmeJack
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It would be aimed at discouraging alts from doing the casting along with the cooldown stopping repeat casters, and perhaps would enable players to organise casts better. 

 

The favour pool filling faster means less worry about missing one too

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Read Sme's comment about 20% of the rite pool, that's a really decent and fair compromise.

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Given it's the highest tier with the biggest reward, we've no problem with it being difficult, if some parts are too difficult we can look at adjustments but we arent looking to trivialising it like that would lend. 

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I dont know it seems pretty trivial to check an altar a few times a day to see someone else charged the spell and you throw 5s on your priest alts to link and get your cast done.  It's also pretty trivial if your 90 channeling friend lets you and other friends link and dont worry about a 6 month cooldown because screw everyone else anyway

 

I also don't know why there's still confusion between difficulty and wanting to actually benefit from your work at the existing difficulty because others can steal your work and that's what all of this has been about

 

Just to be super clear, fairness =/= easy.  Wanting to benefit from your hard work and not have it stolen because that's what the game encourages =/= easy

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So tweak it as said? make it 40%, 60%, hell make it so that if you haven't won the timing lottery by the time you hit 100k prayers and could have charged it entirely on your own without alts you complete it. Leave the rite for a lucky free pass since you think that its hard, its actually not hard to steal it, the problem that you don't seem to understand is the difference between something that is hard and something that you can not time to be around for ever. If it helps you decide at all, I don't need this on any of my main toons.

Edited by SmeJack
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Figure out what direct behavior this goal is meant to encourage/reward and design accordingly--just standard goal setting stuff.

 

As it stands, to complete the goal you need to either have excellent contacts, be very lucky, be prepared to be on-line a lot or have a lot of patience to wait it out till get lucky. Was this the design intent?

 

I can confirm this isn't a hard goal at all under certain circumstances.  I had the right contacts and got lucky to be online at just the right time. Having said that, I still don't have the tier complete since it literally isn't all that important to me--I'll get there eventually. This probably explains why I'm kind of ok with the current system since I literally don't really care when I get there.  Wurm is a life goal for me.  I can accept I'm probably not the player to design to though.

 

 

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The intent is for this to be a high end goal that requires working with your community. With the journal requiring about a year or so to complete, we feel that the time that will take will require networking and give multiple opportunities to cast. 

 

The main bottleneck being faced currently is most priests are using the same pool, Vynoras, and with the amount of priests having already completed the bulk of the goals due to being around for a long time it means more people are standing at this gate, which we expected. 

 

Increasing cast frequencies of smaller deities would help this greatly, if you look at the recent casts for other servers it's been upwards of several years since some have been cast. 

 

Having missions fill favour pools will help smaller servers work towards their own cast, and the requirement of 90 channelling and cooldown will discourage people sniping it using a throwaway priest as the actual caster. 

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is there some reasoning behind ignoring every single comment about how the way it works forces you to N O T work with the community and instead wanting to make it into something more outrageous and even less community oriented because all the 90 channeling priests will be on cooldown and everyone that wasn't lucky enough to get to link and have it completed with absolutely zero effort can be left wondering why they try

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Here is my suggestion:

 

1)  Have missions assist in filling the pools.
2)  if pool still is hasn't filled up in 3 months or 6 months have each prayer contribute a bit more, maybe 2 pts towards the 100k pool.  This will help Mag and Libila priests the most assuming suggestion 1 doesn't provide much.

3)  Change the journal entry to Benefit from Global spell 10 times.  with actually being in the casting group completely completing the goal.

 

This way if you aren't online when the spell is cast or its Ninja'd from you after you did all the hard work at least you can eventually complete the goal after praying for the rewards 10 times.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Given it's the highest tier with the biggest reward, we've no problem with it being difficult, if some parts are too difficult we can look at adjustments but we arent looking to trivialising it like that would lend. 

 

No one has any problem with it being difficult.

 

At present, it is not difficult. In fact, it is trivial. It depends entirely on luck for all but the tiniest minority who have taken it upon themselves, either alone or in small groups, to charge deity favour pools. I would be happy to re-explain or link content if you missed these points.

 

Most of us want an honestly difficult and fair challenge that does not penalize pro-community fair play.

 

A proper fix would address this non-relationship between effort and goal completion. This could mean offering players some protection on their work charging the deity favour pool, or fairly rewarding that work, or changing how deity favour works altogether. Here are a few such suggestions that have already been made:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Mission favour contributions, a 90 channeling req't, and cooldowns do not mend this massive rupture between effort and reward and some of these might actually cause other issues.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

will require networking

 

*nepotism.

See the last RotS cast on Xan for reference. It's transparent on its subforum, it even had its own thread because the thing is so rare.

Got nothing further to add without sounding like a broken record.

 

But please do add the missions charging favor.

One of my gripes with the current system is how dull the charging process itself is - hence my suggestion that was even linked above. I know a rework of that kind is not realistic (but only complaining all day isn't going to get us anywhere so I might aswell spitball something), but adding new ways of charging the deity pool in a meaningful way that isn't praying 24/7 would also alleviate a lot of the frustration, because it happens more as a side effect of normal gameplay rather than a mind numbing, concentrated effort to get the show running.

 

Further ideas for that could be:

-A fraction of favor gained from sacrificing items and animals could also go to the pool, with a daily cap per priest if needed.

-Successful enchants tighten the gods grip on the world or something and grant favor.

-There are actions certain gods do not like. But what if, one the other hand, there were actions they DO like and even followers can perform to contribute other than getting sore knees or ears.

Anything to make the charging more pleasant and frequent as people go about their ways rather than being stuck to an altar. It would also foster the notion that it was a community effort and therefore open to cast for anyone. Doesn't address the systematic issues but it may move the mentality more towards one you describe.

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One major flaw I see with increasing favour contributions is that an easier-filled pool will mean even more frequent RoS and HC casts and the sleep bonus and characteristic gains that go with them. And we're already drowning in silly amounts of sleep bonus as it is. Other suggestions that have been made (see above) don't exacerbate this problem.

Edited by Gwyn
specific rites
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Of all the goals, across both sets of journals, 'Cast a Global Spell' is the only one that can be attained by only a small number at a time - capped by the channelling skill of the priest doing the cast (but may well be less). This creates a bottleneck, with only a small number being able to attain this goal at a time.

 

Couple this with this being a new reward scheme being added to an already developed game, there are a significant number of priest wanting to get this goal. Even without it being ninja'd, by it's very nature it can be expected that the cast will be made at the earliest opportunity, even if less that the max. number are available to benefit from it. Given time, this may resolve itself, as the mass of priest trying to get beyond this choke point dwindles. But then, like some real world analogies I can think of, how much pain is this causing? And, how many will simply walk away, either from just this particular goal or the game?

 

1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

The intent is for this to be a high end goal that requires working with your community.

 

This is the only real goal that requires such a high level of work/commitment from a server wide community. There is nothing close in the rest of the journal system,  but just imagine if you had to burn 1, or more, hearts in the closing of the third wave of a rift for it count? And now imagine the drama that would cause, even if people showed restraint and only burnt a single heart....

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4 hours ago, Retrograde said:

The intent is for this to be a high end goal that requires working with your community. With the journal requiring about a year or so to complete, we feel that the time that will take will require networking and give multiple opportunities to cast. 

 

The main bottleneck being faced currently is most priests are using the same pool, Vynoras, and with the amount of priests having already completed the bulk of the goals due to being around for a long time it means more people are standing at this gate, which we expected. 

 

Increasing cast frequencies of smaller deities would help this greatly, if you look at the recent casts for other servers it's been upwards of several years since some have been cast. 

 

Having missions fill favour pools will help smaller servers work towards their own cast, and the requirement of 90 channelling and cooldown will discourage people sniping it using a throwaway priest as the actual caster. 

I seriously cannot believe you are still on this train of thought after it has been explained to you so many times. It seems you think people are asking for it to be easier. Thats -not- it. Lets see if perhaps I can explain it to you in a manner you can understand.

 

Imagine you imping  500 swords to 95 to sell to a kingdom. Say someone will pay you 400 silver for the entire order. You finish imping all of them after a whole month of working on it non stop. 

 

Next day you wake up, and they are all gone. Turns out some random guy took your swords and sold them to your customer. Now that guy has 400s, and you spent a whole month imping for nothing, because you were 100ws and got not even skill. How would that feel?

 

Replace you with every priest out there that had prayed for weeks on end to get the pool filled.

Replace the swords for all the prayers they had to do non stop.

Replace the 400 silver with Benediction.

Replace the guy that stole the swords with the priest and his alts that sniped the cast.

 

Maybe now you can understand what people feel.

Edited by Angelklaine
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Retrograde's handling of this is the most frustrating thing I have ever seen on these forums.

I guess that feeling is also being amplified by the declining player base. And seeing how these matters are handled so ignorantly is hard.

Edited by Wiolo
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28 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

Maybe now you can understand what people feel.

Which is why the aim of making the rites more common across every server seems more important than just making the whole thing more solo focused. If you look at Niarja only 3 servers have hit the rite of spring and only one has hit holy crop, this means that there's 4 more servers not hitting the pool for rite of spring, 6 more not hitting holy crop and none have hit ritual of the sun. Land of death is fairly new so we'll discount that for now. 

 

If the rites are more available on other servers via other means than spamming pray (and feeling like you're putting weeks worth of work into it) it means that it can be filled by general playing AND can be contributed by everyone as opposed to one person having to carry the bulk of it. 

 

The majority of issues raised here come from the fact it's a bottleneck with a lot of priests stuck at this one point due to all being end game levels, not the goal itself. 

 

 

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Summary of the exchange so far, as I see it (with a touch of levity):

 

1. Concerned Players:

[Thread after thread, page after page of evidence and explanation showing the current goal operates like a taxpayer-funded lottery, with the general player base as the taxpayers and the rite participants as the jackpot winners.]

2. Concerned Players:

We don't want to be taxed and have our work redistributed at random.

We don't want a lottery.

We don't like gambling.

We want an honest challenge that takes teamwork to overcome and rewards the team that overcame it.

3. Retrograde:

Well, the lottery is won by only a few players and takes a team of taxpayers to fund; therefore, it is challenging and rewards teamwork.

4. Concerned Players:

? Umm... But that's not what words mean. You haven't actually addressed Point 2 at all.

5. Retrograde:

All right, all right.

So the problem is that not enough people have won the lottery yet to keep you rabble quiet.

So we'll feed the lottery jackpot with new taxes.

More taxes, more lotto draws, more winners!

Everybody's happy! :)

6. Concerned Players:

*Sigh*

No, because the nature of a lottery means some people may still never win, regardless of the number of draws or how much they are taxed.

Again, we don't want to gamble for our own collective work.

We want a fair reward for a fair challenge that requires a group effort.

7. Retrograde:

Ah, but you see, the lottery is a fair challenge because not everyone wins. And it is a group effort, because the entire player base is being taxed to fund it ...

 

... And on and on it goes. Maybe we can break out of this loop?

 

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Retro.

 

Please make the goal something that *Can* be 100% achieved with sufficient effort. Every other goal meets this standard. This is the only one that does not.

 

Having 92 Channeling be the goal by itself is ok. Making it hard and time consuming is ok. 

 

Requiring fantastic luck and the goodwill of a population of randoms, who have no incentive to cooperate is not. 

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More that the goal isnt being removed or changed. This isn't my decision, and has come after discussion with the dev team. We're aware that there's a bottleneck, and that people are currently competing for essentially 2 casting slots (Xan and Indy) which doesn't seem reasonable. 

 

What I seek to do is find a decent ground that helps eliminate the bottleneck of so many priests wanting to achieve this goal as well as help the smaller servers get their casts too. Something that removes this need of being on at the right exact time because there's more opportunities. 

 

For the record, we've seen no one cast it twice, which tells us it's just a matter of more people wanting to get the goal than anything else. 

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By the way, I want to make this clear that "I've got mine!". My priest cast the goal, but in the fear that I would not make it, ran without full links. I was (rightfully) afraid that If I had the courage to do what Flubb did, I would get the result he did. Having your attempts at being good-hearted and ethical rewarded with FAILURE. 

 

The goal as currently constructed would see me benefit from casting it once again to prevent others from getting the +5 bonus. How is that fair. Do we need Dr. Manhattans like yellowfinger to drive the knife to prove a point?

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