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Threap

Alternate solution to leading 1 horse on Elevation

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Posted (edited)

The problem was leading 4 backup horses to a fight, which I agree is stupid and a problem.

 

There is already a CR penalty for leading more than 1. Just for reference this is in CombatHandler.java

 

This is the existing line of code

if ((this.creature.isPlayer()) && (opponent.isPlayer()))
{
<snip>
if ((Servers.localServer.PVPSERVER) && (this.creature.getNumberOfFollowers() > 1)) {
     combatRating -= 10.0F;
}

 

There are a ton of ways this could have been fixed in a better way, use the same code above and give them a -50% damage modifier, make it a 50% CR penalty. Or have a hard check and prevent the player doing any damage. "You fail to swing as you are leading too many animals".

 

Limiting leading to 1animal breaks a bunch of stuff, Collecting horses for taming, having to move tames around 1 at a time, you can no longer have a pet and a backup horse in pvp its just all round a huge pain to deal with, All because a small problem was fixed in a very lazy way. its these lazy fixes over and over which has gradually degraded the game over time, please start fixing things the right way instead of these instant lazy fixes that cause more harm than good.

 

 

 

Edited by Threap
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Posted (edited)

Imo it shouldve been same 4 lead on foot to make breeding still reasonable (some breeders are outraged and going back to homeservers) but limit to 1-2 lead when mounted.

 

Meta was usually fast main horse to catch up and engage but it dies, then barded backup to tank throughout the fight

 

With the current changes, if you jump off your main horse then you can't lead both it and your backup

Edited by Alexgopen

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Posted (edited)

I agree.. It could have been made more interesting with changes that didn't prevent people from leading 4 horses but give them high penalties.. i was actually thinking it would be nice if they would not block arrows while leading more than 1 creature for instance.. or other stuff that would give you a disadvantage but would still allow you to lead 4 horses if the situations calls for it, you are saving a group for instance, and it's your call to accept the penalties and go in like that..

Hopefully it will be looked at more for the November update..

Edited by faty

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The issue with just a cr nerf is those horses are still tons of free aosp/health/mobility extra, honestly messing with the cr was just as easy a change this path was picked for more reasons.  Having 4 backup creatures with you makes it hard to balance anything pet related making you choose between a backup and a tamed pet means we are likely to be able to remove some of the pet nerfs and start balancing things around not being stuck with the old ways just because that's how it was back then.  No matter what kinda penalty we put if you can have 4 horses there will be those people solo roamers and others who still run tons of backup horses same as when the current CR nerf was added and people kept using them anyways.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Darklords said:

The issue with just a cr nerf is those horses are still tons of free aosp/health/mobility extra, honestly messing with the cr was just as easy a change this path was picked for more reasons.  Having 4 backup creatures with you makes it hard to balance anything pet related making you choose between a backup and a tamed pet means we are likely to be able to remove some of the pet nerfs and start balancing things around not being stuck with the old ways just because that's how it was back then.  No matter what kinda penalty we put if you can have 4 horses there will be those people solo roamers and others who still run tons of backup horses same as when the current CR nerf was added and people kept using them anyways.

 

If it was limited to 1 while mounted that would be fine, but the issue is it's now limited to 1 even on foot, which means even if you do bring only a single backup horse/pet, you will have to abandon it if you dismount, because otherwise you will not be able to lead your fast main horse

 

At the very least make the limit 2 if by foot, 1 if by mount

Edited by Alexgopen

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Make each led animal slow you down some or also add the limit of speed down to slowest animal out of the group.

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39 minutes ago, Darklords said:

The issue with just a cr nerf is those horses are still tons of free aosp/health/mobility extra, honestly messing with the cr was just as easy a change this path was picked for more reasons.  Having 4 backup creatures with you makes it hard to balance anything pet related making you choose between a backup and a tamed pet means we are likely to be able to remove some of the pet nerfs and start balancing things around not being stuck with the old ways just because that's how it was back then.  No matter what kinda penalty we put if you can have 4 horses there will be those people solo roamers and others who still run tons of backup horses same as when the current CR nerf was added and people kept using them anyways.

 

there are many options to make 4 horses completely un-viable for pvp without the hard restriction on only leading 1 horse. I gave a few practical examples in my original post. a hard check to prevent attacking anything while leading more than 1 animal for example will fix 99% of the cases, the other 1% are so niche they are not worth worrying about.

 

Armyskins suggestion of a speed nerf when leading more than 1 pet is another great example of how to fix this problem without introducing 4-5 other problems by having a hard 1 lead pet limit.

 

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5 hours ago, Threap said:

its these lazy fixes over and over which has gradually degraded the game over time, please start fixing things the right way instead of these instant lazy fixes that cause more harm than good.

 

I've got a better idea - stop "fixing" stuff.  

 

Seriously!   In the last year, there have been so many meta changes that it discourages past PvPers from returning to the battlefield.  Example:  "Wait....what?  They can follow me through off-deed minedoors now?"

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2 hours ago, Wargasm said:

 

I've got a better idea - stop "fixing" stuff.  

 

Seriously!   In the last year, there have been so many meta changes that it discourages past PvPers from returning to the battlefield.  Example:  "Wait....what?  They can follow me through off-deed minedoors now?"

 

WTB wurm classic

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Will be looking into some more long term solutions for this clearly missed some important issues this brought up, I liked the idea of having 2 lead when on the ground and 1 when riding if you try to ride with 2 and 1 is not the one your trying to ride it would likely prevent you from riding. Thoughts on this?

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Wargasm said:

 

I've got a better idea - stop "fixing" stuff.  

 

Seriously!   In the last year, there have been so many meta changes that it discourages past PvPers from returning to the battlefield.  Example:  "Wait....what?  They can follow me through off-deed minedoors now?"

PvP needs a complete redesign. Small band-aids can only stop minor bleeding but not stop the hemorrhaging. 

 

It's a huge under taking, while we players appreciate the interest the devs have taken recently with PvP. The changes are slightly jumbled and messy, I completely agree with Wargasm. They seem to only care about the now and not the long term. If you wanted my opinion I'd tell you to get a few more devs and a team made dedicated to the PvP side of Wurm and collaborate and focus on it for a few months.

 

I'd also focus more on the PvE elements as lately they've been pretty few and far between. 

Edited by Niki

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At the beginning of this we explained it would be short term works because the major work could not come until the PvE content came out. 

 

So yes, I agree with you completely, we need to get the PvE content out and then do a larger overhaul of PvP, as per our intent. 

 

This update was a short term series of adjustments based on the now as we were not shifting our entire development plan. 

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4 hours ago, Darklords said:

Will be looking into some more long term solutions for this clearly missed some important issues this brought up, I liked the idea of having 2 lead when on the ground and 1 when riding if you try to ride with 2 and 1 is not the one your trying to ride it would likely prevent you from riding. Thoughts on this?

 

I like this as long as its not on pve for the horse breeders since on pvp servers it still slows them down a lot when trying to breed or collect horses.

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On 8/2/2019 at 11:02 AM, Darklords said:

Will be looking into some more long term solutions for this clearly missed some important issues this brought up, I liked the idea of having 2 lead when on the ground and 1 when riding if you try to ride with 2 and 1 is not the one your trying to ride it would likely prevent you from riding. Thoughts on this?

 

Seems to be more complex than the more permanent fixes I suggested

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just give mounting and dismounting an action timer that can be blocked with a strike in combat. if in combat and you manage to get off and then on 2 different horses you deserve to get away

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12 hours ago, armyskin said:

just give mounting and dismounting an action timer that can be blocked with a strike in combat. if in combat and you manage to get off and then on 2 different horses you deserve to get away

 

and a timer for embarking/disembarking from carts too.

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13 hours ago, armyskin said:

just give mounting and dismounting an action timer that can be blocked with a strike in combat. if in combat and you manage to get off and then on 2 different horses you deserve to get away

It's not just mounting, it's also that these creatures become walking first aid kits with LT. 

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4 hours ago, Retrograde said:

It's not just mounting, it's also that these creatures become walking first aid kits with LT. 

And you couldn't possibly deal with that problem in some way

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