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Deathangel

epic --> freedom skill gain transfer.

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7 minutes ago, whereami said:

None of you seem to be concerned about fairness to others, only yourselves. As long as it's fair to YOU, getting to keep all your skill, it's fine. But unfairness to freedomers? Who gives a ####? Clearly no one here.

 

I've been solely a freedom player ever since the skill merge while still having been playing freedom before it (or you know, starting on the freedom cluster too), I am not playing new elevation or epic at all still since the merge, and I am even grinding 70 prayer on freedom instead of epic.  I still think it's fair for epic and freedom to share a skill set rather than just one way, and I have absolutely nothing to gain from it.  What's not fair is people on the freedom cluster demanding everything that was unique to epic and then continuing to treat epic like second class players that deserve nothing and should be ashamed for even asking

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This does not need to devolve into arguing over Epic and Freedom. 

 

I can say that a 1:1 transfer will not happen. That said with the epic rework a solution which allows skillgain to transfer in some manner is on the list of things we wish to achieve, there is no basis in making any decisions or claims off that however, as the nature in which it happens may change drastically. 

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2 hours ago, whereami said:

ou literally just described every problem the game currently has in detail, but then at the last sentence, you attribute all this to being the cause of "player separation" as if Epic not being part of the freedom cluster is what's responsible for all this turmoil. "Newsflash" - Everyone who played Epic was on Freedom up until less than a week or two ago. Didn't magically solve any problems, did it? Or was I simply unaware that the game had suddenly come back to life, all because Epic'ers had graced us with their glorious presence?

This is simply not true. There is a very large number of players that came back for the Epic reset for all the kingdoms. There's even people who I thought would never see again for which I am glad, and these are all epic only players. Just look at the recent posts on the Epic forum and you'll see. There's even many people I never even met before their return to epic. These players will eventually die off when they realize their skills are still stuck on a cluster that is in the chopping block for a full reset. Simply saying "oh well, sucks for them for investing on epic!" is a rather absurd notion. 

 

2 hours ago, whereami said:

You are trying to push for a change you have put absolutely zero forethought into - Allowing people to cross with skills between Epic and Freedom does nothing for the actual game, all it does is make accounts more omnipotent than they already are, and give those who want to grind on Epic the upper hand since you can do so with guaranteed tick rates and significantly higher skillgain. Something I suspect you would benefit from, but I could potentially be wrong there. Freedomers certainly don't gain anything from it, I can tell you that, other than omnipotent accounts randomly hopping over to sell items at cheaper-than-dirt prices. That doesn't sound like much of a boon to anyone as far as I'm concerned. In fact, hmm, it actually sounds kind of like the exact reason the game IS in the state it's in today...  hmm....

No, I get that. I get that there is a disparity between the two clusters when it comes to skillgain. That's why I have always advocated to close the gap and make either a system that allows for you to convert all or part of your gains on Epic to freedom skills at a fair exchange, or by making the skill gain the same on both clusters. That's how you close that gap. And don't delude yourself. The game is in its current state because we are 1/3 of the population we were 2 years ago, with total numbers online at a time hovering at the 300 for all servers combined. That has nothing to do with the power of accounts and everything to do with constantly decreasing numbers due to poor retention. Here we are witnessing an influx of returning players. It would be a waste to loose them again.

 

2 hours ago, whereami said:

Why should freedomers have to work 3x as hard (sometimes more depending on skill) just to reach the same level of skill? Which you then get for free (or at least, 1/3 of effort cost) when you are allowed to transfer your skills over.

How is any of this fair to freedom players, whatsoever? None of you seem to be concerned about fairness to others, only yourselves. As long as it's fair to YOU, getting to keep all your skill, it's fine. But unfairness to freedomers? Who gives a ####? Clearly no one here.

 

This I already explained above. 

 

Oh and this?

2 hours ago, whereami said:

Something I suspect you would benefit from, but I could potentially be wrong there.

 

2 hours ago, whereami said:

As long as it's fair to YOU, getting to keep all your skill, it's fine. But unfairness to freedomers? Who gives a ####? Clearly no one here.

Sorry to break it to you bud, but I am a Freedomer. I don't play on Epic and all my skill grinding is done on Freedom, so yes, you are completely wrong there. I have no horse in this race.

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Hmm ..

 

3 hours ago, whereami said:

Why should freedomers have to work 3x as hard (sometimes more depending on skill) just to reach the same level of skill? Which you then get for free (or at least, 1/3 of effort cost) when you are allowed to transfer your skills over.

 

Because they like it, especially in PvE? I do not know so many Freedom players complaining about the grind, can't speak for Chaos though.

 

3 hours ago, whereami said:

How is any of this fair to freedom players, whatsoever? None of you seem to be concerned about fairness to others, only yourselves. As long as it's fair to YOU, getting to keep all your skill, it's fine. But unfairness to freedomers? Who gives a ####? Clearly no one here.

 

 

I have played on Freedom ever since I started end of 2017, and never perceived injustice in that. I enjoyed my expeditions to Epic, and found it pleasant to have a glimpse into the future of my capabilities. I fail to see any injustice there. And no, I do hell not want Epic curve on Freedom, never.

 

The problem is that the blocking of any skill retransfer from Epic to Freedom is a strong disincentive to everybody wanting to play both clusters to grind any skill (except maybe for a journal goal) on Epic at all. That is why solutions are needed. Freedom is widely fine with its skill curve.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

No, I get that. I get that there is a disparity between the two clusters when it comes to skillgain. That's why I have always advocated to close the gap and make either a system that allows for you to convert all or part of your gains on Epic to freedom skills at a fair exchange, or by making the skill gain the same on both clusters. That's how you close that gap. And don't delude yourself. The game is in its current state because we are 1/3 of the population we were 2 years ago, with total numbers online at a time hovering at the 300 for all servers combined. That has nothing to do with the power of accounts and everything to do with constantly decreasing numbers due to poor retention. Here we are witnessing an influx of returning players. It would be a waste to loose them again.

 

And as I originally said, if the transfer algorithm was fair, I could fully support it. The algorithm itself really should just accommodate for the difference in the skilling algorithms themselves as well as the tick rate. It should just be the reverse of whatever algorithm is used to boost skillgain there, with a little more accommodation done for the skills affected by the 100% tick rate (like prayer).

 

Something resembling the above I could fully support. Once again I'm not a fan of anyone feeling left out or shafted - but lately the arguments that seem to be in favor of this seem to be born of a "screw them" type of mentality.

 

As to the overall complexities of the ailments affecting the current state of the game - they make it hard for people seeing across the lines of two conflicting clusters to agree on many points - I've gone over how all of this is intertwined in the old economy bitchthread below.

Generally there is no single reason to blame - It is a culmination of unfavorable circumstances that got us where we are now, but no single reason is to blame for any of it. Not retention, not known skillgain algorithms, not broken PvP. But the combination of all these insufficiencies is, ultimately, death.

Edited by whereami
rip formatting

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7 hours ago, whereami said:

 

And as I originally said, if the transfer algorithm was fair, I could fully support it. The algorithm itself really should just accommodate for the difference in the skilling algorithms themselves as well as the tick rate. It should just be the reverse of whatever algorithm is used to boost skillgain there, with a little more accommodation done for the skills affected by the 100% tick rate (like prayer).

 

Something resembling the above I could fully support. Once again I'm not a fan of anyone feeling left out or shafted - but lately the arguments that seem to be in favor of this seem to be born of a "screw them" type of mentality.

 

As to the overall complexities of the ailments affecting the current state of the game - they make it hard for people seeing across the lines of two conflicting clusters to agree on many points - I've gone over how all of this is intertwined in the old economy bitchthread below.

Generally there is no single reason to blame - It is a culmination of unfavorable circumstances that got us where we are now, but no single reason is to blame for any of it. Not retention, not known skillgain algorithms, not broken PvP. But the combination of all these insufficiencies is, ultimately, death.

Then you and I are in agreement, friend. We are just explaining it differently.

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The problem is everyone claims to want what's fair, but what we all think is fair is not all the same.  Some people think the first merge gave epic players too much skill on freedom and was unfair, I think I got shafted in the merge and it was unfair, which is a good example that we will never agree on.  Algorithms and doing math on paper does not equate to the many different play styles and methods someone can take to get a skill, and the more drastic the difference is between freedom and epics skilling system, the harder it will be to find something that majority can call fair.  The simple fact that one person can be grinding with 20-30m sb a day while the next person will have a satchel full of bought powders is not something that can be known or accounted for, and the one without the luxury of throwing away many euros/silver on sleep powder will have spent basically twice as long grinding the skill, yet they would be nerfed the same.  There's also the fact that fight skill gets nerfed despite grinding at the same speed on both clusters, but I guess that's another story

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Well. For some skills, 1:1 isn't as horrible as it sounds at first.

 

Sure, epic has faster skill gained, but the vast majority of time spent skilling on Epic requires you to skill at higher Effective skill level, and at a slower rate due to this curve than if you skilled at your actual skill level.

 

For example, a skill like shieldsmithing or leatherworking, which I have reached 90+ on Freedom already, on SBCoC, usually goes a bit like this.

 

On Freedom, SB and CoC: 3 points per hour at 50 skill range, gradually decreased to 1 point per hour at 70 skill. Finally, about .60 skill per hour through the 80's and .20 per hour at 90. This is rough math, but I've grinded many skills on my account Deathangel to 90 and most of them take this similar rate of progression on Freedom. That's my freedom grind progression.

 

Now consider grinding those same skills on Epic, SB and CoC: my actual 50 skill 3pts/hr on freedom initially becomes something like 75 effective skill due to the epic curve. That means i'm gaining about 1pt/hr at 50 skill due to effective curve... however, I'm also benefiting from the Epic skillgain (x3), so that Epic 1pt/hr at 50 skill becomes 3pt/hr at 50 skill, on epic with SB and CoC. That means i'm skilling, using the same methods, 1:1 with what I would be gaining on freedom for 50 skill. The curve cancels out with the skillgain boost for 50 skill range on skills like mining and imping skills (carpentry, smithing,tailoring). Conclusion: throughout the 50 actual skill range, 1:1 is a fair conversion ratio. Now let's consider the same scenario but at 70 skill range:

 

At 70 actual skill, on Freedom, I typically get 1pt/hr with SB and CoC. Most skills in wurm progress this way, with a few exceptions like prayer, meditation, channeling?, etc.
So let's compare my 1pt/hr Freedom skilling to what I'd be getting on Epic (again, SB+CoC).

 

Converting 70 range Freedom skilling to Epic, Firstly, the epic curve makes me gain slower because 70 actual skill ---> about 90 effective skill on Epic. So instead of gaining 1pt/hr on epic like I do on freedom, I would gain at the 90 skill rate of (roughly) 0.2/hr (again this is with SB and CoC). Initially, before the x3 Epic skillgain buff, I am going to be gaining at .2/hr at 70skill on Epic which is much slower than 1 pt/hr on Freedom. Now we apply the Epic x3 gains effect: .2/hr on Epic at 70 skill goes up to .6/hr at 70 skill on Epic. That means, I'm getting 0.6/hr for most crafting skills on epic at level 70. On Freedom, I would be gaining actual skill at a faster rate of 1/hr at level 70. This means that for the 70 actual skill range, 1:1 is NOT a fair transfer ratio because skilling is faster on Freedom beyond 50's. For imping skills then, it is slower to skill on Epic than on Freedom beyond level 50 (approximately, I could put effort into exact cutoffs if devs wanted help implementing a fair conversion ratio). Note: This comparison is for most skills in the game that progress like imping skills (carpentry, smithing, tailoring). An easy comparison can be made for other skillgain types, it will just look a little different.

 

Now lets consider the early skilling (sub 50). In this situation, it is faster to skill on Epic than Freedom below 50. Take 30 skill for example. 30 actual skill on freedom is going to be faster than my 3pts/hr at 50. I can't remember exactly what 30 skill with SB and CoC is like, I'm gonna use 5 pts/hr as a reasonable guess. So 5pts/hr on freedom for 30 skill level.

Now we consider leveling at 30 actual skill on Epic. The curve makes 30 skill act and look like 50 skill. So instead of gaining 5pts/hr on epic, before applying the x3 gains, you're looking at 3pts/hr. Now we apply the x3 Epic gains and that becomes 9pts/hr on Epic at 30 actual skill. It's almost twice as fast to gain skill around level 30 on Epic, than on Freedom. So a 1:1 transfer on Epic-> Freedom at level 30 is NOT fair, but in the opposite way that 1:1 is not fair beyond 50.

 

Is there a way to convert Fairly, going both ways? Yes, there is. How? We can linearly approximate this shift using a few simple formulas for each 10 point skill range so that each skill is adjusted equivalently on transfer between the clusters. For example, 5 points gained on Epic at level 30 would translate to 2.5 gained on freedom at level 30, since last portal transfer. If I get blacksmithing from 30 to 35 on epic, then when I return to freedom I should have about 32.5 blacksmithing. If I go from 50 to 55 on Epic, I should have 55 when I return to Freedom. If I go from 70 to 75 on epic, I should have (1/.6)*5 = 78.33 skill when i return to freedom. That would be FAIR transfer ratios, or close to it based on TIME SPENT. That's using a linear piecewise function that has different ratios for different skill levels and it could be defined for as many intervals as we want to make it as fair as possible, but the result of a bunch of small skill range ratios would just be a good true function that represents it perfectly, some kind of exponential function that I could solve for if we wanted it.

 

This was written with respect to imping skills. Some skills work differently and deserve their own discussion. I'm just illustrating a fair conversion ratio for different skill levels that represents MOST important skills in the game to make it very plain and obvious that it can be done and that this post took me only 15 minutes to think out and write and that a happy, mostly fair solution can be drawn out in less than 1 full day of effort for all skills in the game if the right ppl are working on it, and implemented the next day.

Very respectfully.

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i play on both servers and i realy dont like when it feels usless what i do on epic cus its freedom that counts. so yea 

 

+1

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I grind on freedom and play on epic, which is bad for pvp, but why grind on epic when high skills gains slower and doesnt transfer. Stoopid.

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And the whole WU mechanic change on epic when the transfer happened is yuck. I have WU on steam if I wanna play that.

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imagine having your fight skill nerfed even though it isn't  a 2 x skill 

 

this post was made by pvp gang

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imagine losing 8 years worth of items and hard earned sorcery back when there were more people competing for them than the game has as a whole at the moment

 

imaging being a priest a suffering a characteristic loss of 25% because we all actually pvp'd on a pvp server and were priests

 

imagine not being path of knowledge because you're on an all inclusive pvp cluster

 

and then imagine a guy with 50 body strength that bought his toon at 70% of what it currently has, telling you that "its not fair to me and my market for you to transfer skills"

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imagine not being able to think in a mature enough way, to actually discuss topics with people in a format other than memes

 

imagine not knowing anything about the players that squash your argument, but desperately looking for a failed way to "take a shot" at them verbally

 

imagine being the reason your entire cluster died in the first place

 

>imagine being mondain

Edited by whereami

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Imagine arguing to the point the thread is locked. 

 

Also deathangels example is wrong, effective skill moves the effective skilling zone but the tick size is based on real skill. 

 

We will be looking at a skill conversion in future works of elevation, we plan on bringing epic closer to its original pitch along with long lasting incentives. Once the current project is complete we will be able to look at what we need to do to make it happen, but existing skills as they are will not transfer 1:1

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