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AJBlack

How's The Current Market? - A Returning Player Question

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The market is non-existent, if you like trading that part of the game is dead and gone. If you enjoy the community of this game or something else that's still around. 

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that's a silly thing to say.
I'm sorry niki i've never trod on your toes before but dealing in such absolutes is preposterous and wholly nonconstructive.
there's a few very intuitive replies on this thread (eg this one), lets not spoil it.
 

There is a solution, the market needs to evolve to survive. I still say we need an interface to automate the process, but that's my take on it.
More people will trade if it isn't more trouble than it's worth... it's always nearly been more trouble than it's worth.
I did ask my alliance for ideas, the following came;
`remove all items but shovels from the game`
`create a slave market for a 1000 new players`

And FYI? we're not attracting players by being so god damn negative. hell it's putting ME off re-subbing and i'm committed & invested.
Constructivity pls.

Edited by Steveleeb
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24 minutes ago, Steveleeb said:

that's a silly thing to say.
I'm sorry niki i've never trod on your toes before but dealing in such absolutes is preposterous and wholly nonconstructive.
there's a few very intuitive replies on this thread (eg this one), lets not spoil it.
 

There is a solution, the market needs to evolve to survive. I still say we need an interface to automate the process, but that's my take on it.
More people will trade if it isn't more trouble than it's worth... it's always nearly been more trouble than it's worth.
I did ask my alliance for ideas, the following came;
`remove all items but shovels from the game`
`create a slave market for a 1000 new players`

And FYI? we're not attracting players by being so god damn negative. hell it's putting ME off re-subbing and i'm committed & invested.
Constructivity pls.

you know what happen to things that evolve in the wrong way, right?

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yeah, we call them mutations. even tho technically it's all mutation.
yes, they die horrible deaths.

Which is why it's not up to us.
we are useful for providing ideas tho. Ultimately we rely on the staff to cultivate the good ones.
Something needs to be done about the economy and code club staff are the only ones with the power to implement whatever framework such a challenge might require.
i think AJ has a fair idea of how the market is fairing. From dead to drowning in dirt. (pun intended)

I think now is the time to suggest how to fix it.

Edited by Steveleeb

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Better of waiting for Wurm 2.0 or a new and similar game with more interesting pvp mechanics.

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9 hours ago, whereami said:

 

I think you are confusing yourself by misinterpretation of what I have explained, unsure if it's intentional or not. It does drive vets away.

..

Because not everyone posts their skilldumps publicly on Niarja, and in fact I'd fare to say that most veterans (and especially people who play PvP) don't.

 

Maybe you are not wanting to see that your explanation model is confuse rather than I am confusing anything. Vets go away, stick, return everywhere in the gaming world, and are not always (to put it politely) happy with changes. That any aspect of the game gets more revealed, tricks and abbreviations being detected, is the fate of every game, maybe code analysis through WU eased it (in fact, Java code was always easier to analyse than, say, disassembling and analyzing C or C++ binaries), but blackbox tests already are sufficiently telling to reveal software behaviour. And maybe some vets got frustrated about faster and easier ways to grind. Others left or stayed for a large variety of reasons.

 

My point with Niarja is not that I claim the data there being representative. I pointed at the aspect that my "ranking" in my modest WS skill is higher than my average skill, while e.g. my "ranking" in Mining and Carp, though over 80 and 90 respectively, is below. That indicates that not scores of players rushed towards "level 70 in 24 hours". That is all, and it demonstrates that a large number of players (the share of players registered at Niarja is not low so the data are telling something) is not overly impressed by such techniques, even if and insofar they exist.

 

9 hours ago, whereami said:

Lol because Roccandil is an Epic player. I wouldn't really consider the guy a vet either, he's been around for a few years but, I'm not sure more than 5. Either way he started on Epic, and I don't consider anyone who started on and mainly played epic, to be a Vet whatsoever as it's a completely different, watered down version of the real game. Epic is Wurm Easy Mode, of course Epic players are going to want the game to be easier, they're mostly casual players. Every change that's been forced on Freedom from Epic has been an absolute utteral disaster.

 

It seems you are infatuated with generalizations, be it by determining who is a vet and who not (fortunately I can say I am not so not affected by such verdict either way). I take Roccandil as serious (or less serious) as you and your somewhat tunnel vision towards the PvP aspect of the game and an alleged overwhelming majority of vets. Yes, Epic is somewhat easier in a couple of aspects, but a beast such as "the Epic player" does not exist. Some people in my region and alliance are former Epic players with a widely different view and perspective.

 

9 hours ago, whereami said:

 

I will refrain from getting too political here, as this is not the place for such discussion but if you'd like to have it in private feel free to PM me. You are assuming the people agree with the practices of large corporations like Google, Facebook, etc. Which they don't.

 

 

No, I am not assuming, but you are. You cannot even determine where I live and work, where I did live and work for long time, and how many members of my family (not mentioning friends) are living and even citizens of the United States (I can assure you that the number is well double digit). I am very aware (you not as it seems) that "the people" of the US are holding extremely diverging views about everything (which is not different from Europe, China, India, or the other parts of the Americas). I know that many condemn or suspect the ways free speech is suppressed by corporate entities, that was not the question. My point was that nobody can claim to speak for "the people" (whichever) and being a citizen of whichever country has no superior meaning.

 

9 hours ago, whereami said:

So don't take your assumptions too far. Just because those companies are based out of the US doesn't mean we agree with their practices any more than you do. If you would like me to provide you examples of ingame video that cannot be posted on these forums without it being removed or censored by the moderation team I will happily do so for you in private. There are plenty of topics we are not allowed to discuss, take a quick gander at the forum rules, and you will see that virtually any discussion pertaining to the wrongdoings or mishandling of certain situations by the GM team is strictly forbidden. (And I have personally been banned multiple times for speaking out on those topics)

 

Well, the forums have their rules. I consider them fairly liberal, and threads going very far in constant attacks on the team, bickering, picking on one another before they get locked or posts removed. So much I can say after about 18 months of Wurm and Wurm Online forum. There may be transgressions and exaggerations, by the team and the moderators, even overly sensitive reactions and overreactions.

 

My point is that this is not censorship. This is a private forum with limited reach, and no obligation to publish everything. That is the crucial difference to real censorship, be it by state agencies or monopolistic corporate or institutional bodies. You may post every video banned here on your blog or home page, Youtube, Vimeo, Youkou or else, and even point to it here, and I doubt you will ever be banned or "censored"  here. No moderation ever is stainless and flawless,  especially not in heated debates. From what I observed here it seems that the moderation is sustaining quite a lot of heat. I cannot say whether they acted worse in the past, but I do not see that they are really curbing free speech.

 

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8 hours ago, Niki said:

The market is non-existent, if you like trading that part of the game is dead and gone.

 

I wonder how I manage to spend half of my in-game time trading, replacing sold stock and imping for customers, lol.

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4 hours ago, Ekcin said:

Vets

To me it really sounds like we're saying the same thing to be honest. Just soujnds like you're trying to be confrontational with the way you say it. No I cannot pinpoint every person who left and every reason they left for - I don't care enough to do so, but the general reasons are fairly outstanding and obvious to just about everyone here including, seemingly, yourself. You're never going to appease everyone, Wurm is and always has been a niche game and I don't think there's much that could be done to say, for instance, counter that. But a lot of things can be done to bring back old players and bring in new players, that is currently just not even on the table as far as the team is concerned.

 

4 hours ago, Ekcin said:

WS skill

As I mentioned, yes, WS skill does still take significantly longer to grind than most other skills which can be done in less than a week. All that means to me is that a majority of people don't care enough to invest their time into the game to acquire that and would rather put their wallet where their mouth is and purchase one of the plentiful Master WS accounts for sale on the forums. Keep in mind, that if Wurm actually only has 4 to 5 hundred individual unique players, there are still enough WS accounts better than yourself for every single player currently playing the game to have one based off the number whose skilldumps are publicly visible alone. It's all about perspective.

 

4 hours ago, Ekcin said:

generalizations, be it by determining who is a vet and who not

I am speaking in generalizations, obviously, since pinpointing every specific circumstance that has given rise to the downfall of this game would be nearly impossible since they are so numerous, and most of them I would get postbanned for simply mentioning.

As for determining who is a vet - Like I said, I'd consider someone who has played longer than 5 years or, maybe roughly as long as I have, a vet. I played for 6 or 7 years before Epic was even a thing, thus I saw every "serious epic player" you claim to know start the game, and proceed to demand hordes of changes which ultimately resulted in the death of the entire cluster on multiple occasions. (See; Epic Reset)

My point there is that epic players, while some of them may have in fact opened up to the hardcore game wurm is supposed to be over time, they generally tend toward making the game vastly easier on virtually all accounts, which ultimately destroys this game. In fact I can't think of anything that has been made mechanically more difficult as a result of a change from Epic.

 

4 hours ago, Ekcin said:

You cannot even determine where I live and work

Dont really care tbh? I put it out there that I have citizenship in USA because I hold their first amendment in high regard and exercise it frequently. And now I'm being accused of "speaking for everyone" lol, when I really wasn't, I just told you not to assume that I agreed with the actions or methods of US-based companies.

The meaning of that statement, was to refer to the fact that America has the highest rate of growth/expansion due to technological advancement currently across the entire globe. Being able to speak freely, plays a massive role in that, and in fact is almost dependent entirely upon it.

 

4 hours ago, Ekcin said:

You may post every video banned here on your blog or home page

And then it would never be seen by ANYONE in the Wurm community because THIS is where the Wurm community is at and discusses things - Just like the videos that are already on YT that I am referring to have never been seen by a single soul here, even though they are already public. And have been posted here a few times, albeit the links stayed up for less than about 5 minutes each time. Most people have no idea what they bring to light, and a majority would be appalled and outraged to see/hear/understand the content. That is why they are immediately removed from the public eye. If something is incriminating on you, and you go through efforts to bury it... isn't that.. Gee, I don't know.. censorship? It's certainly something that would be deemed illegal I think in a majority of first-world countries, at least under scrutiny of law. The type of censorship Google is doing is quite accurately comparable to what is happening here.

 

That argument makes literally no sense and is incredibly foolish. What do you do if a company online, say on Amazon or something, screws you out of your money? You go on their site and post a bad review, right? You don't go to dogwalking.com and post a review about the shitty laptop you got screwed on by some chinese company for the simple fact that you already know no one cares because the relevant individuals whom that information may concern are not discussing the topic in that location. Seriously, please, have some common sense.

Edited by whereami

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Getting back on topic ...

 

As someone might have said, had they been born in our time: the reports of the death of Wurm's markets have been greatly exaggerated.

 

I can only speak from my own (pretty extensive) experience. In the short time this thread has been running, I've made several major sales across multiple sectors (ships, bulks, tools, armour). Overall, I haven't lowered my prices since I started playing three years ago; if anything they've gone up because I'm less cash-desperate and therefore less inclined to discount goods to generate coin. And although many would-be buyers do find cheaper offers elsewhere (they sometimes tell me so), I continue to sell far more than I need to for my enjoyment of the game. Right now I am swamped with orders that I didn't even seek out – the customers came to me. Meanwhile, as a buyer I have had to pay more for certain goods/services in the past month than two years ago because there were no better offers. So I'm seeing some prices go up while others go down and still others stay level, as I would expect in a functioning, evolving free market.

 

True, the player base is dwindling, but the attrition has also included players who were net sellers/hoarders, leaving gaps in certain sectors of the market. All their stock then becomes largely irrelevant to the supply/demand equation; if goods/services aren't actually on the market, they may as well not exist as far as pricing is concerned. At the end of the day, however, you'll only know where the opportunities exist by diving in and seeing what doesn't sell, what does, for how much, and how long it takes. My advice would be to take any claims of spiralling prices from would-be buyers with a very, very large grain of salt; even if they are substantiated, there is no moral imperative to discount just because someone else sold the same thing for less. Stick to your prices and gradually adjust (up or down) according to your eagerness to close a sale. Simple as.

 

Edited by Gwyn
clarity

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22 minutes ago, Gwyn said:

Getting back on topic ...

 

Unfortunately, the timeframe needed to see the overall decline seems to be a bit greater than the timeframe from which you speak of. Just as well, markets for bulk materials like Planks, Bricks, Dirt, etc haven't changed all that much since they were minimally priced items from the very start. New players used to saturate the bulk market, as it was a common practice for a newbies first job to include at least a few thousand bricks. (Hence the term brick-slave) Nowadays late-game players still take up the slack, since most of us have 4 or 5 accounts, so no not much has changed there. It's the higher end or end-game items that are devaluing themselves at a fairly rapid pace - Granted this is all compared to what the game saw roughly 8 years ago, when at the time I would have been an active player of the market, buying low and selling high or just making rare things for others.

 

Those prices are half, if even that, of what they were at ~8 years prior. This includes MM items, rares/supremes/fantastics, tomes (which weren't around <5 years ago but have still even deflated since), scale/drake, plate armor, 100QL iron, and generally things late-game or end-game players use, since *that* is the area of the market that is currently far overstimulated. Even high end accounts have deflated massively in value, which subsequently hurts the value of lesser accounts inadvertently. (tomes should just be removed, tho)

Edited by whereami

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I would remind players in general that a "declining market" as touched upon here means cheaper prices for those who pay to play the game out of their own funds/income. I sort of doubt that they would complain about a "declining market". If this is the case then who would complain about this and come up with suggestions as to how to "improve" it? What does this "improvement" mean then? Perhaps to those who see this as a problem in the first place it would mean ways to increase the costs of the items that they sell? If the cost of these items is increased then they would make more silver to spend to supplement their expenses in and out of the game while the expense of playing the game is increased for those who pay from their available funds outside the game.

 

Why would this situation be beneficial (a better "market") for new players who will pay for paying the game out of their own available funds? It would seem to me that a "declining market" would be more beneficial to draw them to the game, unless of course if they were lured into it by the prospect of making money from playing it to supplement their in game expenses or make an excess of funds to spend outside the game. Even those who do play the game to make money from playing it are never satisfied with the amount of money they can currently make so these diverse scenarios of doom are perpetuated to enforce the "necessity" to "improve the market" from its decline or else the game will never survive another 12 or so years as it has stumbled along doing in the past.

 

Another supposed flaw of the game is allowing players to "grind" up their skills and then gradually develop self sufficiency so that they can supply themselves with these items and abilities and not need to purchase them from those whose focus is making money from playing the game. I would suppose that many players other than myself take this same approach to playing the game and yet we would be vilified as a detriment to the game because we do not participate in this "market" that others would like to capture as exclusive to themselves. Still, I/we purchase some items and services from other players simply because we don't want to spend time or are interested in "grinding" those skills up ourselves. In this respect player trade serves a useful and desired purpose since it is based upon a real demand for these services and not an artificial one perpetuated for the purpose of those who play the game to make money from playing it.

 

I would suppose that there are many more players who purchase items and services than there are those who sell them. If this is the case then a "declining market" is a benefit to them because of lower prices paid for playing the game. Sure, players are not "forced" to purchase any items or services from others but just as in RL life these things make the game more enjoyable to play for those who purchase them. If a few of these "sellers" leave the game because of a "declining market" little impact upon it is had since others will soon replace them to supply these same goods and services to other players. Maybe we are even better off...

 

=Ayes=

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I think you're forgetting the fact that most people base their prices on how difficult or uncommon something is to procure or create. If that price goes down, it obviously means that has become less difficult of a process, and therefore since this is affecting the endgame the most, that means that effectively "completing" the game and getting to the highest level of living and being is ultimately not that difficult - thus leading to poor player retention overall because, sure I can spend a few months getting to the tops... but what do I do then? Sit there and whack off to my massive hoard of rares that's equivalent to what literally every other person has?

 

The game loses its overall flavor at that point, you lose the sense of accomplishment you get from playing the game and mastering a craft. Again, specialization used to be valuable, because it was difficult to find, and many people played because they enjoyed being the town blacksmith or whatever.

 

I am not saying that the lower prices are even a problem in themselves, but rather they are a symptom of a problem rooted much deeper in the game, and it has to do with the low volume of players and how highly concentrated they are into the end-game level.

 

Now, there is also the fact that yes, a lot of people DO play this game purely for the fact that there is real money both to be made and at stake. I used to view PvP as a sort of Wurm-Gambling system, and I always went out into Wild with my best. A couple people can vouch for the few times I've died with literally a full set of rare everything in my inventory. But we all know what happened to PvP. (it's now complete and utteral trash)

 

Regardless of wether you like the fact that people play the game for that reason or not, the fact is that it is one of the few things Wurm has that's attractive and unique. Personally, I only gave this game a chance back in 2009 because I heard that you could pay premium with coin earned in-game if you were committed enough. Without the ability to do that I'd have written this game off completely the moment I saw how terrible the graphics were.

Edited by whereami

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14 minutes ago, whereami said:

effectively "completing" the game and getting to the highest level of living and being is ultimately not that difficult - thus leading to poor player retention overall because, sure I can spend a few months getting to the tops... but what do I do then? Sit there and whack off to my massive hoard of rares that's equivalent to what literally every other person has?

The game loses its overall flavor at that point, you lose the sense of accomplishment you get from playing the game and mastering a craft. Again, specialization used to be valuable, because it was difficult to find

I am not much interested in what you do with your rares in the privacy of your own home. Beyond this, what captures and sustains a players interest in the game starts to diverge from this thread topic so I don't want to get too far off track into that direction other than as it pertains to the "current market". I will say though that what you describe as your motivations and satisfactions are not my own that have held my interest in the game all these years and continue to do so. In my view it has only improved greatly in these areas of my own interests.

 

=Ayes=

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wurm is not a game that can really have an economy. In order for an economy to work, ppl need to need/want things they cant or wont make/get for themselves.

 

Because the ONLY thing that prevents a player being able to get something for themselves is skill, its only a matter of time before that player gets the skill and thus removes themselves from the "market".

 

 

Someone mentioned EvE's economy earlier in the thread - that economy works because not all resources are available to everyone and people loose stuff ALOT. Lots of consumables are needed for various things and players will often die and loose their ship and all its contents. Ships take a lot of time and resources to build. Many of the components themselves take time and effort to build so there's sub markets etc etc.

 

A Wurm economy can only work if something changes so that no matter how high level a player you are - there are always things you cant/wont get for yourself and that's a fairly difficult thing to do with the mechanics available.

 

Everything is too easily obtained in Wurm and not much is lost and so...no economy. Its not the end of the world, just something it cant feasibly do.

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1 hour ago, CountZero said:

Someone mentioned EvE's economy earlier in the thread - that economy works because not all resources are available to everyone and people loose stuff ALOT. Lots of consumables are needed for various things and players will often die and loose their ship and all its contents. Ships take a lot of time and resources to build. Many of the components themselves take time and effort to build so there's sub markets etc etc.

 

 

 

Excellent points, and I'll tell you how it used to be so, and no longer is.

 

Back in the day, MM items used to be PvP only rewards. That's gone now. Prices are pitifully low, and so is demand, to boot.

Waaay back in the day, it used to be that Freedom had a resource QL cap, so that in order to get high QL resources you HAD to go over to PvP and RISK losing things (potentially gear, tools, the resources you mined or were transporting, etc)

Also around this time period, there was a such thing as permadeath for champs, which worked to (very seldomly) remove "high-end" accounts permanently from the playing field after they died whilst a champion of a god.

 We also had offline skill loss which incurred on your highest skills (down to a minimum) the longer you were offline, working in tandem with the champ permadeath system to create an account pool that could scale with the playerbase and cull un-used or inactive players down a bit.

 

That's exactly what we need, we need resource pools that are freedom and PvP specific to incentivize trade between (and promote the existence of) both areas of the game.

There needs to be more item-sinks, things or cases where items can simply vanish, OR BETTER there needs to be high-risk activity with high potential yeild that can cause these items to be destroyed if unsuccessful.

 

The same also needs to become true with accounts.

 

There needs to be a type of "account sink" where accounts can be effectively removed from play or receive enough of a debuff to take them off the field for a little while. I'm not saying I favor people's accounts being deleted with this last one, but I think skill loss over long inactive periods was definitely a good thing for the overall longevity of the game, and that there should be at least some circumstances (like I said, high risk high reward) that could potentially cause this to happen.

Edited by whereami
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3 hours ago, whereami said:

 

 

Excellent points, and I'll tell you how it used to be so, and no longer is.

 

Back in the day, MM items used to be PvP only rewards. That's gone now. Prices are pitifully low, and so is demand, to boot.

Waaay back in the day, it used to be that Freedom had a resource QL cap, so that in order to get high QL resources you HAD to go over to PvP and RISK losing things (potentially gear, tools, the resources you mined or were transporting, etc)

Also around this time period, there was a such thing as permadeath for champs, which worked to (very seldomly) remove "high-end" accounts permanently from the playing field after they died whilst a champion of a god.

 We also had offline skill loss which incurred on your highest skills (down to a minimum) the longer you were offline, working in tandem with the champ permadeath system to create an account pool that could scale with the playerbase and cull un-used or inactive players down a bit.

 

That's exactly what we need, we need resource pools that are freedom and PvP specific to incentivize trade between (and promote the existence of) both areas of the game.

There needs to be more item-sinks, things or cases where items can simply vanish, OR BETTER there needs to be high-risk activity with high potential yeild that can cause these items to be destroyed if unsuccessful.

 

The same also needs to become true with accounts.

 

There needs to be a type of "account sink" where accounts can be effectively removed from play or receive enough of a debuff to take them off the field for a little while. I'm not saying I favor people's accounts being deleted with this last one, but I think skill loss over long inactive periods was definitely a good thing for the overall longevity of the game, and that there should be at least some circumstances (like I said, high risk high reward) that could potentially cause this to happen.

 

yes, cap the moonmetal and ql on chaos, and make them buy on freedom!

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2 hours ago, tamat said:

yes, cap the moonmetal and ql on chaos, and make them buy on freedom!

 

I miss the days when troll posts were actually creative - the self-centered attitude 95% of freedomers have about things like this is the reason the devs were bullied and goaded into making Wurm a vastly PvE only game in the first place.

 

We might as well delete Chaos and Epic altogether while we're at it.

Make it so that new players spawn in equipped with a glimmer huge axe (cause a shortsword is clearly not adequate) and 30kg of imping metal to make sure they never run out.

As well every single player should be given a necklace that can summon a dragon to your location with unlimited charges, and can be killed for 10+ kg's of scale per.

 

I've tried to keep my posts constructive but when people are openly going to be that stupid in a fashion that isn't obviously humorous (to those disgruntled anti-pvp freedomers) it's hard to not retaliate to such a comment because there are people who genuinely will take you seriously on that and think it's a good idea because they just hate PvP for no reason other than it stops them getting the changes they want in order to suit their own agendas.

 

But you know, as they say.. If you've got no valid argument.. Troll the ###### out of em!

 

Quote

I am not much interested in what you do with your rares in the privacy of your own home. Beyond this, what captures and sustains a players interest in the game starts to diverge from this thread topic so I don't want to get too far off track into that direction other than as it pertains to the "current market". I will say though that what you describe as your motivations and satisfactions are not my own that have held my interest in the game all these years and continue to do so. In my view it has only improved greatly in these areas of my own interests.

 

=Ayes=

Your interests must consist of dying buckets, seeing trees on the other side of the server, and getting mechanics you didn't ask for forced down your throat. (*cough*Fishing*cough)

That's fine, to each their own I suppose, but some of us actually like the games we play, to allow us to feel as if not ALL the time we put into said game was a complete and utteral waste - Even though we all know it to be inevitably so. We actually like to feel some accomplishment from the game, eh?

And, god forbid, the possibility that it isn't a complete waste if you can push off your items into a healthy market and maybe gee, I don't know, turn some of the multiple gold you've invested into prem after all those years into a small monetary kickback if and when you decide to stop playing the game.

Edited by whereami
additional points were made

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6 hours ago, whereami said:

 

I miss the days when troll posts were actually creative - the self-centered attitude 95% of freedomers have about things like this is the reason the devs were bullied and goaded into making Wurm a vastly PvE only game in the first place.

 

We might as well delete Chaos and Epic altogether while we're at it.

Make it so that new players spawn in equipped with a glimmer huge axe (cause a shortsword is clearly not adequate) and 30kg of imping metal to make sure they never run out.

As well every single player should be given a necklace that can summon a dragon to your location with unlimited charges, and can be killed for 10+ kg's of scale per.

 

I've tried to keep my posts constructive but when people are openly going to be that stupid in a fashion that isn't obviously humorous (to those disgruntled anti-pvp freedomers) it's hard to not retaliate to such a comment because there are people who genuinely will take you seriously on that and think it's a good idea because they just hate PvP for no reason other than it stops them getting the changes they want in order to suit their own agendas.

 

But you know, as they say.. If you've got no valid argument.. Troll the ###### out of em!

 

Your interests must consist of dying buckets, seeing trees on the other side of the server, and getting mechanics you didn't ask for forced down your throat. (*cough*Fishing*cough)

That's fine, to each their own I suppose, but some of us actually like the games we play, to allow us to feel as if not ALL the time we put into said game was a complete and utteral waste - Even though we all know it to be inevitably so. We actually like to feel some accomplishment from the game, eh?

And, god forbid, the possibility that it isn't a complete waste if you can push off your items into a healthy market and maybe gee, I don't know, turn some of the multiple gold you've invested into prem after all those years into a small monetary kickback if and when you decide to stop playing the game.

first we need devs considering something on the forum, there is pool with 50+% of people dont liking fishing and it will not back, for example...
 

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I don't exactly mind the fishing update mind you, it's just like... nobody really asked for it. I get it, it was done in honor of Tich etc etc.. But there's things that much more desperately need attention in Wurm than Fishing not being an involved minigame. And things across the board don't seem to be much different as far as us not asking for updates. Like the distant tree rendering is great... but how about some more graphics optimizations so I can run your shitty game at more than 20 FPS on something that isn't a goddamn supercomputer?

 

My rig runs most other games at high 100's in FPS, which is why I bought a 140hz monitor. Wurm? Forget even the thought. In a non-crowded area with no people in local I can muster a good 45-50 FPS, but that's still insanely bad considering my system specs - AND wurm has absolutely NO graphical effects that would warrant it. The game barely even makes use of 2k textures (Something as large as Wagons, use a 512x512 texture, sad), and normal mapping is probably the most sophisticated screen-time effect the renderer even has in it aside from something simple like FXAA. We don't even have something as simple as Ambient Occlusion, which Wurm would benefit greatly from, not to mention more complex ENB-type effects. Hell, if you don't want to do the tweaking, at least give us hook-in points and a starting point for an ENB so the players can make one + the settings for it that look good themselves or something. This task is nowhere near the realms of simple but.. come on.. that would surely be a hugely beneficial investment of effort compared to... "dyeable buckets"

 

My point is that if they cared at all about satisfying their customer/player base overall, you'd think they would at least invest their time and efforts into things that make the game more attractive on a greater scale, into things people will actually make use of, and care about when they see it's been improved. Things that improve not only the state of the game but it's longevity. This just doesn't seem to be the case, IDK if it's because of the "volunteer" thing or what, but if so maybe we should look at getting some more peeps on the train then eh? I know there are plenty of talented Java coders amongst ourselves here, as seen by the modding community. What's even more disheartening is that most of them have been turned down when asking if they could volunteer as a dev.

Edited by whereami

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41 minutes ago, whereami said:

I don't exactly mind the fishing update mind you, it's just like... nobody really asked for it. I get it, it was done in honor of Tich etc etc.. But there's things that much more desperately need attention in Wurm than Fishing not being an involved minigame. And things across the board don't seem to be much different as far as us not asking for updates. Like the distant tree rendering is great... but how about some more graphics optimizations so I can run your shitty game at more than 20 FPS on something that isn't a goddamn supercomputer?

  

My rig runs most other games at high 100's in FPS, which is why I bought a 140hz monitor. Wurm? Forget even the thought. In a non-crowded area with no people in local I can muster a good 45-50 FPS, but that's still insanely bad considering my system specs - AND wurm has absolutely NO graphical effects that would warrant it. The game barely even makes use of 2k textures (Something as large as Wagons, use a 512x512 texture, sad), and normal mapping is probably the most sophisticated screen-time effect the renderer even has in it aside from something simple like FXAA. We don't even have something as simple as Ambient Occlusion, which Wurm would benefit greatly from, not to mention more complex ENB-type effects. Hell, if you don't want to do the tweaking, at least give us hook-in points and a starting point for an ENB so the players can make one + the settings for it that look good themselves or something. This task is nowhere near the realms of simple but.. come on.. that would surely be a hugely beneficial investment of effort compared to... "dyeable buckets"

 

My point is that if they cared at all about satisfying their customer/player base overall, you'd think they would at least invest their time and efforts into things that make the game more attractive on a greater scale, into things people will actually make use of, and care about when they see it's been improved. Things that improve not only the state of the game but it's longevity. This just doesn't seem to be the case, IDK if it's because of the "volunteer" thing or what, but if so maybe we should look at getting some more peeps on the train then eh? I know there are plenty of talented Java coders amongst ourselves here, as seen by the modding community. What's even more disheartening is that most of them have been turned down when asking if they could volunteer as a dev.

I'm confused how your post goes from "wurm is not optimised" to "wurm needs to add more visual stuff that impacts performance"  but if you're struggling to get above 50 fps you're better off posting your settings and working on that, are you in a densely crowded area? That could do it, or it could be some setting configuration giving you issues. AO has been played with, and is/was on the test server pending better optimisation, there's plenty we'd like that the preview client allows us to do with decent optimisation, so the native launcher is going to help there too. 

 

I still dont get the buckets thing, they've been dyeable since dyes came out. 

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24 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

I'm confused how your post goes from "wurm is not optimised" to "wurm needs to add more visual stuff that impacts performance"  but if you're struggling to get above 50 fps you're better off posting your settings and working on that, are you in a densely crowded area? That could do it, or it could be some setting configuration giving you issues. AO has been played with, and is/was on the test server pending better optimisation, there's plenty we'd like that the preview client allows us to do with decent optimisation, so the native launcher is going to help there too. 

 

I still dont get the buckets thing, they've been dyeable since dyes came out. 

 

Obviously optimizations come first, but optimizations don't go down well on paper as saying "Look folks, we did something" since most of that happens under the hood and isn't something most people notice right away unless the improvement is huge. I was more or less making the comparison that, other games that have those features I can run at 160-180+ FPS on average, while Wurm does NOT and I can only muster 45-50 FPS on a good day in a good area. Something has to be up there, surely. I might consider posting my settings up for y'all to look at, but from what I have gathered from every other player I've ever talked to their experience seems to be about the same as mine. Their beefy 64-bit Ryzen 5 with 32gigs of ram and a GTX 1080 turns into the equivalence of a potato with two coins and an HDMI cable wedged into it the moment a wurm client is loaded. So I am pretty much 99% certain this is nowhere near the realms of case-specific.

 

I forget what it was about the dyeable buckets thing, I'm pretty sure there was something about them you said in a semi-recent stream, I think when y'all were showing off the armor rarity. Something with White Dye or something like that. I don't know, because I didn't pay much attention to be quite honest, but it's become a bit of a meme and is a good comparison for what a majority of the recent changes have felt like. Todays change was a good one, with the BSB locking QLs. That's super useful everywhere, PvE and PvP. So a +1 for that. It's not all bad I think a lot of us really just feel like the focus has been in the wrong places for a bit too long. EG PvP as a whole is still completely, and utterly 150% broken since the priest update with not a single bit of changes being made to the Chaos side of things. And please tell me you're not considering this Epic crap to be the trial run before you put it all on Chaos, because that would be absolutely laughable. PvP is already a joke and the methods employed for giving people 2 or 3 months of fun on Epic are not going to get you a sustainable PvP environment in the long run.

 

This is all severely off-topic however, so attempting to further stick to economically themed discussion - I'd love to see something done to bring in more new players and boost the overall turnover rate of accounts, addition of account sinks and item sinks. I think improving the game and the way it looks visually could definitely aid us in that. As someone's recent suggestion thread pointed out the colors in Wurm are quite dull overall, as far as the sky, leaves, grass etc. UI personally is something I think would be a massive benefit though I understand the complexities of UI creation and intuitive design, and that is definitely not something that should ever be rushed. And obviously PvP would help to attract new players and fill in a portion of the end-game material that is currently missing - if it freaking worked and was actually tolerable instead of everyone standing 15 tiles away and spam casting spells at each other for 30 minutes. (or until their truestrike CD lapses)

 

Edited by whereami

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I agree with the new players and sinks, it's been something discussed a lot. I'm in the process of the usual PR stuff with an update (conveniently while trying to get to level 10 med, its so slow). 

 

I also agree with the saturation, and there are post processing things in the works to improve it, a lot of the visual changes are the result of behind the scenes advancements finally allowing us to do these things. Saroman and Samool have been working together to achieve their own personal dream list of what wurm needs (including AO). 

 

Theres a few other areas being looked at, including me poking around at sound stuff too.

 

The UI work is ongoing, it's in pieces and parts, many UX elements too are being worked on, I'm impressed with how its coming and cant wait to see it in players hands

 

Also: [20:19:16] Congratulations! You have now reached the level of Thought Eater of the path of knowledge!

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11 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

I agree with the new players and sinks, it's been something discussed a lot. I'm in the process of the usual PR stuff with an update (conveniently while trying to get to level 10 med, its so slow). 

 

I also agree with the saturation, and there are post processing things in the works to improve it, a lot of the visual changes are the result of behind the scenes advancements finally allowing us to do these things. Saroman and Samool have been working together to achieve their own personal dream list of what wurm needs (including AO). 

 

Theres a few other areas being looked at, including me poking around at sound stuff too.

 

The UI work is ongoing, it's in pieces and parts, many UX elements too are being worked on, I'm impressed with how its coming and cant wait to see it in players hands

 

Also: [20:19:16] Congratulations! You have now reached the level of Thought Eater of the path of knowledge!

 

Good to hear, that all definitely sounds like some much needed improvements that could help increase player retention. This harks back to the communication thing though - It really helps us to look forward to the future of the game when we have some idea of whats being looked at and what isn't.

I really hope that the general community can get a bit more in touch with the stuff that's currently held behind-the-scenes, even if its just "we're working on X, post ideas or feedback you have for the current system here" type discussion. This could even open the door to easing up your graphics/sound team's overall workload, since I know for a fact there are plenty of creative minds around here other than myself. Personally I'd be happy to help in any unofficial capacity I can, anything from providing new images for the UI or even just testing on live and providing bug reports/feedback - And the same would definitely be true for many others.

 

Some of us are starting to look at the frontier thing as a bit of a gamble, since it seems to be taking a lot of development time but yet, virtually none of us know anything about it or what to expect from it.. Some worried it'll be another fishing type of update that flops because no one's been told what it includes, nor are we aware that it's even something the game needs.

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I think the most I can say at this point is that frontier is long term content aimed at both new players and existing players, with little to no character skill requirements in order to enjoy it. It will encourage growth and provide content that has a long term benefit as well.  It's borne of identifying things that players feel wurm needs as well as things we feel development needs as well. Kind of like with the cooking update and players posting so many different suggestions about things we were convinced tich's house was bugged.

 

The reason we're quiet on it is the same reason we were hesitant in sharing it, it's not at a stage to talk about over weeks with news posts showing yet another screenshot of it, it's something that's being worked in big chunks and once we get to public testing we'll be able to give all the info and take feedback based on that. 

 

We're reading through suggestions and posts every day, some have things that we've taken and adapted to project frontier, and others are already kind of on the money. It's a good feeling when the project you're working on has players saying "they should be working on <insert 90% accurate description of project>" I do want to share more, and the moment we're able to show things, answer questions and give a solid runthrough of it all I can guarantee we will. 

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Even if something is added so moon metals or rare stuff becomes scarce and promotes trading - thats still a crappy "economy".

 

The only real way of getting a decent trade aspect to the game would involve changes that almost no-one here would be happy with. First of all you need to create a need. People who can provide everything themselves dont have a need so you need to set it so they cant...

 

Set a skill cap at 50 or 30 or something - high enough that ppl can support themselves with stuff "that will do" but stuff that isnt great.

Allow players to take a per-defined set of skills over the cap. A player will choose the skill area depending on the thing they want to do most. For example someone who wants to blacksmith will be able to skill blacksmith, weapon/armor smith etc etc. But they wont be able to skill things they might need to create the materials they need - for example, mining, prospecting, maybe smelting will be in a separate group.

 

This will stop the problem of veteran accounts eventually being able to do everything themselves and not needing to trade (although alt accounts would get around this i suppose)

 

Then theres the problem with sinks. Obviously you cant just have stuff decay because that would be waay to frustrating/annoying but the only two things in the game that really require a lot of effort and resources to build are ships and buildings - things that we cant really get rid of, although maybe have ships take damage more easily based on movement (not much damage if they just stay in dock but still some) - the deeper the water they are in the faster the damage, or maybe random chance of extra damage ticks in very shallow water to account for hitting coral etc?

Not sure if its possible but perhaps make repair  more complex - like not just a single action but requiring replacement parts (of equal or better ql) to be used or something.

 

***EDIT***  thinking about it, repairing large or complex items (items with several components) SHOULD require materials/components to be consumed - combined with greater dmg it would help

 

Plate armour used to take a bit of effort due to having to make it from steel but thats gone now.

 

The only thing i can think of off the top of my head is the issue of iron - iron is too universally perfect. Its the most abundant ore, easiest to mine, you can make just about every metal item from it and iron items arnt that bad compared to other metals.

 

Iron is brittle - anything that takes a hit - tools, weapons, armor would need to take damage much faster. Iron blades should be considerably less effective than steel. - Steel needs to be promoted, the only problem is that it will encourage mass deforestation due to charcoal requirement HOWEVER the effort it takes to make charcoal should stay the same otherwise its missing the whole point.

 

 

Maybe adding in new items that are complex and resource intensive to make but either damage easily or something would help. I feel like all the alloys dont get much use which is a shame - maybe develop that aspect.

Edited by CountZero

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