AJBlack

How's The Current Market? - A Returning Player Question

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I've been gone from the game for a few months now, and upon returning I've noticed that the prices are very different than they were when I left. 

 

After being accused of trying to get higher prices for things by making people make me offers because I don't know the current market value of things, I figured I might as well make this post and see what has happened during my absence! 

 

Thanks in advance for any advise :) 

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Given that the majority of players left are the diehards?  Crafting market is pretty stale (most people have bought high skilled alts), and the magic market is dead (everyone has a priest alt).

 

Honestly?  If you want a game with a market, look elsewhere at the moment.

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There are definitely better paying jobs than Wurm Online...

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basicly dat... the market is dead, the enchant business is dead, the imp business is dead, unless you have a fantastic bone, some mega hyper rare stuff, nothing sell... well, maybe except bricks and the like... things nobody love to do.

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It has only beeen going one direction for a few years. Now, I see posts in WTS and Auctions that last several days on page one of their sections, with no bumps.  In my opinion, the best activity comes from the race to unload, before someone else unloads.  The market is not something anyone should remotely consider playing.  If you buy, it should only be for something you actually plan to use and NEVER plan to resell.  I can't think of a single item that has increased in value from 2 years ago.  Valrei tomes might go back up some, but not even sure on those, since everyone remaining loaded up on al the ones they needed.

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Posted (edited)

Well, I see not few market activity, in trade chat as well as from allies and friends. It is true that the prices are going down, especially in the calm summer season. What else can be expected in a game with many high level players and a widely saturated demand?

 

What I do not understand, is the expectation to make money ingame. I am here for playing, when I want to work and earn money I go elsewhere. I see trade as fun and a game element no less than other parts of the game. Rising productivity is as much chance as disadvantage.

 

And btw., what does "accused of trying to get higher prices" mean? How foolish are people? When they feel the price being too high, just don't buy. When it is a friend, maybe pm and tell the prices recently paid.

Edited by Ekcin

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2 hours ago, Wargasm said:

There are definitely better paying jobs than Wurm Online...

And who said that people asking about prices and economy wants to make rl money? 
Don't be paranoic. 

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

What I do not understand, is the expectation to make money ingame. I am here for playing, when I want to work and earn money I go elsewhere. I see trade as fun and a game element no less than other parts of the game. Rising productivity is as much chance as disadvantage.

 

While I think a lot of us are well inclined to agree with you on the sentiments of the nature of economy and its relationship to fun gameplay, there is a level of knowledge to be gained from all of this, a lesson. Though that is not to say there aren't those who do view the game as purely a means of making money. (See; Niki)

 

Stable, strong economies are almost wholly dependent (and therefore symbolic of) a thriving playerbase. The two are intrinsically connected in this fashion, because of a few simple concepts;

  • If people enjoy playing your game, they are more likely to invest not only their time, but RL money into it as well
  • If there is a balanced amount of players in all tiers (new players, old players, vet players, elite players, etc) the economy will remain strong at all points in the level curve. EG low level supplies will be in equal demand as the high level ones.

 

If you'd like a couple of examples of this being resoundingly true, check out Runescape and how many items their Grand Exchange moves per day. Now, I don't like RS any more than the next guy. But it's undeniable they've a strong playerbase and a great economy. Maybe take a look at the tactics of EvE as well, another game that we frequently trade players with in the past. Their economy, though it does have its fluctuations, seems to be going relatively strong, and it is purely due to the fact that they have a strong playerbase, not the other way around.

 

Currently, the state Wurm's Economy is in is one of rapid, succinct decline. This is due to a culmination of things;

  • The only players left are those who are either EXTREMELY interested or invested, into the game itself.
  • There is an extreme population unbalancing issue between New and Vet players. Currently my bet is that over 4/5's of the pop is Vet players. (people who have played for over 5 years)
  • It is extremely easy to skill since the skillgain algorithm is public knowledge. This came about because of WU. Now everyone can achieve level 90+ anything in less than a week or two of effort. No need anymore to even buy vet accounts.
  • Horrid lack of sufficient advertising and effort from PR (sorry not sorry retro) as well as general appeal of the game.
  • A dated UI that's over 8 years old, with constant requests for improvement going ignored.

As for what to do about it. Unfortunately not much can actually be done. Since the discussion about what would actually need to happen to change any of this, is likely one CCAB will not allow the players to actually have in any place they moderate, as it probably involves a boycott of their service. This post will obviously be removed for even mentioning such a blasphemous idea, so screencap it while you can.

Edited by whereami

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I'm simply asking because trading is one of the aspects in the game that make it fun for me, and I don't want to rip anyone off by asking for prices that were current a few months ago. I am not regarding WO as a job, I spend way more than I can ever make back, but when I do trade, whether buying or selling, I would like for it to be fair :) 

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2 hours ago, Wurmhole said:

 I can't think of a single item that has increased in value from 2 years ago. 

 

While overall this is correct, there is a very glaring and public exception--the value of rare mats. Two years ago the price was 10c per rare mat, now it can be 20c or even higher.

 

While I agree with the overall comments that the market is in decline, I still have no problem doing my 30 to 40s a month on average. Maybe that is just too small an amount for some but it works for me. Can fund a lot of in-game activity with that no problem. If you are looking to make rent (or even pay your ISP costs), good luck I suppose though.

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3 hours ago, whereami said:

 

While I think a lot of us are well inclined to agree with you on the sentiments of the nature of economy and its relationship to fun gameplay, there is a level of knowledge to be gained from all of this, a lesson. Though that is not to say there aren't those who do view the game as purely a means of making money. (See; Niki)

 

Stable, strong economies are almost wholly dependent (and therefore symbolic of) a thriving playerbase. The two are intrinsically connected in this fashion, because of a few simple concepts;

  • If people enjoy playing your game, they are more likely to invest not only their time, but RL money into it as well
  • If there is a balanced amount of players in all tiers (new players, old players, vet players, elite players, etc) the economy will remain strong at all points in the level curve. EG low level supplies will be in equal demand as the high level ones.

 

If you'd like a couple of examples of this being resoundingly true, check out Runescape and how many items their Grand Exchange moves per day. Now, I don't like RS any more than the next guy. But it's undeniable they've a strong playerbase and a great economy. Maybe take a look at the tactics of EvE as well, another game that we frequently trade players with in the past. Their economy, though it does have its fluctuations, seems to be going relatively strong, and it is purely due to the fact that they have a strong playerbase, not the other way around.

 

Currently, the state Wurm's Economy is in is one of rapid, succinct decline. This is due to a culmination of things;

  • The only players left are those who are either EXTREMELY interested or invested, into the game itself.
  • There is an extreme population unbalancing issue between New and Vet players. Currently my bet is that over 4/5's of the pop is Vet players. (people who have played for over 5 years)
  • It is extremely easy to skill since the skillgain algorithm is public knowledge. This came about because of WU. Now everyone can achieve level 90+ anything in less than a week or two of effort. No need anymore to even buy vet accounts. 
  • Horrid lack of sufficient advertising and effort from PR (sorry not sorry retro) as well as general appeal of the game.
  • A dated UI that's over 8 years old, with constant requests for improvement going ignored.

As for what to do about it. Unfortunately not much can actually be done. Since the discussion about what would actually need to happen to change any of this, is likely one CCAB will not allow the players to actually have in any place they moderate, as it probably involves a boycott of their service. This post will obviously be removed for even mentioning such a blasphemous idea, so screencap it while you can.

skilling is not a problem, most people dont skill to sell

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Posted (edited)

How do they not, though? It's inevitable that the more high-skilled players are able to contribute to the end-game market eventually - Whether that be just imping tools for friends or maybe alliance. They don't have to be selling a service or product for them to contribute to the overall state of the economy. Remember - The economy is the result of the players, NOT the other way around.

 

Now, take the fact that a majority of players have high-end accounts or can grind to that point with exceptional ease compared to what the game saw say, 7-8 years ago. This counter-acts the basic predication (point #2) made towards the top of my post. That oversaturation of one area of the economic level curve results in deflation in that area, which is what we are experiencing almost globally.

 

That's not speculation or opinion, it's an observation based on a comparison between the current state of the game, and what the effects of the overrall size and state of the playerbase have on trade economies. If new players stop playing your game, or if new players are able to progress too quickly (or both, in our case), it would inevitably result in this kind of deflation in all cases where the economy isn't force-maintained via NPC-only trading. (No trade between players, items sell to vendors for set prices, like WoW but without an auction house)

Edited by whereami

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27 minutes ago, whereami said:

If new players stop playing your game, or if new players are able to progress too quickly (or both, in our case), it would inevitably result in this kind of deflation in all cases where the economy isn't force-maintained via NPC-only trading. (No trade between players, items sell to vendors for set prices, like WoW but without an auction house) 

 

Or why nuking the traders was a bad idea instead of making them available to everyone for some income based on the quality of the items or whatever. Nothing virtually maintain prices... and everything will fluctuate depending on whatever the next update will bring for the collectors... want the new rare <insert shiny silly name>, buy the rare+ mats to make it.

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It is disheartening to see such a great game stagnate and starve to death and slip into its death throws as WURM is. I will say it, I have no faith in the current DEV team as nothing is done to advertise the game, help it grow, or anything. Markets are dead to say that much AJ.

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Posted (edited)

tbh, i have a friends deed to sell, i've made a 2d map of it, with markers and escorting screenshots.
i plan on making a 4K video with bandicam, it'll hit the forum in the next month.
In addition to this, i have 1600 ql100 iron lumps to sell and etc, ive no idea of the prices.. PC in tradechat yields nothing, i am not looking forward to selling the stock it might all very well, end up on the forum.

I refuse to believe the game is dying, i am and have always been, an advocate against the doomsayers.
but the market, is always the first thing to go.

it is my opinion that at best it is a loose end and needs to be renewed through ingenious means.
is it time for a market interface akin to the systems involved in player trading within other mmos?

wurm will continue to be the unique that it is, one shouldn't avoid what other games do simply because, it's unoriginal.
lets not turn wurm online into a mac.

Edited by Steveleeb

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With the trivial ability to exchange Wurm Online money and real life money, there has never been a real “market” and any ideas to the contrary are nostalgia.

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Posted (edited)

calling something that is evolving elsewhere, `nostalgia` is the same as refusing to engage it as an idea on the principle that it has been done elsewhere, before.
This is not reasoning.

silver for real cash is a separate market that is just fine as it is.
however, silver for products and even a resource based economy (products for products) would find, i believe, greater functionality, accessibility and popularity if a shared database as exists elsewhere, was implemented somehow, into our game.

Edited by Steveleeb

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, AJBlack said:

I'm simply asking because trading is one of the aspects in the game that make it fun for me, and I don't want to rip anyone off by asking for prices that were current a few months ago. I am not regarding WO as a job, I spend way more than I can ever make back, but when I do trade, whether buying or selling, I would like for it to be fair :) 

 

I did not address you but those who may call it a ripoff if somebody demands a price which seems too high for them. It is the nature of trading that someone offers, someone else demands, and the offers usually be above the buyer's expectations. That is bit wierd in Wurm: I sometimes found ppl withdrawing, obviously offended, when they deemed the price too high, instead trying to haggle (which is much of the fun, even in real life, e.g. in Mideast and Asia, less among caucasians, especially in christian-protestant cultures). 

 

11 hours ago, whereami said:

..

  • It is extremely easy to skill since the skillgain algorithm is public knowledge. This came about because of WU. Now everyone can achieve level 90+ anything in less than a week or two of effort. No need anymore to even buy vet accounts.

Lvl 90+ in WS, catapults, foraging/botanizing? Gimme a break. The world is more than FS and subskills. I also contradict the notion of vet players outnumbering new players by 4-5 to 1. That is not the case at least in my area and alliance where there is a ration between 30 to 40% of players with Wurm experience of under 3 years, me with about 19 months not being an exception. My impressions from rifts etc.match that impression. Anyway I always felt the churn rate being too high, I hope that HL does help at least somewhat, it is a step in the right direction certainly.

 

 

Quote
  • Horrid lack of sufficient advertising and effort from PR (sorry not sorry retro) as well as general appeal of the game.

I wrote about the ad and PR thing lately (Etherdrifter contradicted, albeit not convincingly imho): It is true that the game is practically invisible in the gaming world, and more PR outside the WO/WU bubble is certainly a need and a must. Yet, mind the amount of funding available for in best case, it is tiny, as the result would be, in best case, gain of some hundred, maybe thousand+ additional players year on year (which would be great btw., and the order of magnitude the game could absorb without troubles). So there must be a well chosen mix of guerilla marketing, targeting of the sandbox communities, many player and volunteer driven stuff. Whining about missing ads does not help, creativity is on demand.

 

 

Quote
  • A dated UI that's over 8 years old, with constant requests for improvement going ignored.

 

I always vomit about "dated UI". There is not much worse than "modern UIs". And yes, the UI needs some improvements. "Constant requests" read for me like the rant and whine bombardments which drive away so many forum readers, possibly even players. That is worse than the alleged evil censors.

 

Edited by Ekcin
addendum

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4 hours ago, Ekcin said:

Lvl 90+ in WS, catapults, foraging/botanizing? Gimme a break.

Hows catapults, foraging and botanizing affects for market and economy?

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8 hours ago, Ekcin said:

Lvl 90+ in WS ... The world is more than FS and subskills. I also contradict the notion of vet players outnumbering new players by 4-5 to 1

You realize Figs skilled from 0 to 90 WS in ~1 month right? Check out the skilldump and get back to me, it's available publicly on Niarja. Clearly you missed that.

That's absolutely abhorrent to the people who spent multiple years on the skill to get to an adequate level. And it's only because they didn't know the exact skilling algorithm back then. If they'd have had it available to them then, you'd better bet they would have used it.

Also.. FS and subskills actually probably take the longest out of any skill these days since it actually requires moving across large swaths of the map in order to find things to hunt.

It is stupidly easy to take a skill from 0 to 70 in less than 24 hours. Another two or three days on it and you're at 90.  It's pathetic, because this game used to be regarded as "hardcore" and high skills used to actually be hard to get, and thus, valuable by comparison.

 

Personally, I would argue with you that it's that newfound ease that has driven most of the vets who have left away.

But overall, vets outnumber new players by quite a lot, especially when you consider the fact that most vets have 3, 4, 5, maybe more, accounts that are usually maintained prem. This screws with your player graphs on MRTG, which I suspect are heavily inaccurate. If we could remove alts from the equation, you'd see that Wurm has maybe about 3 to 4 hundred players total, at best.

 

8 hours ago, Ekcin said:

Whining about missing ads does not help, creativity is on demand.

 

We have to let these guys know that it isn't working somehow. And if they're not doing anything about this problem, but yet the problem persists... don't you think you should... you know... maybe stop giving them your money? I don't know, wild concept there guys.

I agree that advertising wurm is a difficult thing to do, but I will hark back to my first post here. You will NOT fix Wurm's problem just by advertising.

 

There is a large number of problems with the game currently that make it so that;

  • few new players who try the game actually enjoy it (see: bad UI, high learning curve, etc)
  • thus even fewer players who do stick around longer than a week, have the ambition to skill an account of their own and contribute to the overall level curve of the economy
  • Wurm is the kind of game that requires heavy investment to go far in the gaem, be it investment of time or money or both
  • thus players are basically incentivized to buy vet accounts in order to skip the grind, which is extremely easy, and there's certainly no shortage of accounts for sale

Combine ALL of these things, and you get a piss-poor retention rate, with the few players who DO get retained simply jumping right to the top since it's an option for them and they're going to have to invest one way or another. Buy 80 sleep powder to grind a few skills up, or buy an account that already has the skills... hmmm... not much of a tossup there.

 

8 hours ago, Ekcin said:

That is worse than the alleged evil censors.

 

As a citizen of the United States of America, I can firmly tell you there is nothing worse for productivity or advancement of a society or community, than the censorship of ideas and ambition, regardless of what form they take.

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1 hour ago, whereami said:

You realize Figs skilled from 0 to 90 WS in ~1 month right?

 

We didn't really need for the WU code to be released... i did the same with both plate smithing and weapon smithing... and back then nobody believed me... except i was still selling 90Ql imps for a silver.

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6 hours ago, whereami said:

You realize Figs skilled from 0 to 90 WS in ~1 month right? Check out the skilldump and get back to me, it's available publicly on Niarja. Clearly you missed that.

..

There is a large number of problems with the game currently that make it so that;

  • few new players who try the game actually enjoy it (see: bad UI, high learning curve, etc)
  • thus even fewer players who do stick around longer than a week, have the ambition to skill an account of their own and contribute to the overall level curve of the economy
  • Wurm is the kind of game that requires heavy investment to go far in the gaem, be it investment of time or money or both
  • thus players are basically incentivized to buy vet accounts in order to skip the grind, which is extremely easy, and there's certainly no shortage of accounts for sale

Combine ALL of these things, and you get a piss-poor retention rate, with the few players who DO get retained simply jumping right to the top since it's an option for them and they're going to have to invest one way or another. Buy 80 sleep powder to grind a few skills up, or buy an account that already has the skills... hmmm... not much of a tossup there.

 

As a citizen of the United States of America, I can firmly tell you there is nothing worse for productivity or advancement of a society or community, than the censorship of ideas and ambition, regardless of what form they take.

 

Me seems you are not aware how much you contradict yourself. Either, skill grind has become so easy that it drives the vets away, then, the question arises how still 80% or more of the playerhood are allegedly veterans, and further, why new players are allegedly driven away by the skill grind?

 

What you are telling about getting to lvl 90 in WS in a month, which is not a short period of time, it is not said or shown how many skiller tools/enchants, SB and SP etc. have been used. I am sure that helps a lot to speed up the process. And a month is bit more than 3 days.

 

If grinding WS is so easy, kindly explain why my really rather modest WS 53 qualifies my rank 338 vs my overall rank of 509. It means that only 337 Niarja registered accounts fare better than that. Why and how that if you can level up to 70 in less than 24 hours? And why are vet players like Roccandil still complaining about the grind? Get your facts straight.

 

As to the UI, it is neither that awful nor that dated, though there are some problems e.g. with misclicks in the dropdowns. Such is stuff for the suggestion forums. And yes, though it is clear that only a minority has a liking for games like Wurm, the churn rate is indeed too high, and the player influx too low.

 

But sorry, what you are writing about censorship, is rubbish. I refrain from comments whether the country with half of the worldwide prison population is the right place from which to preach about freedom. As an individual, I value your opinion as high or low as of any other human on the planet.

 

But especially in the US, the opinion is widespread that censorship is a matter of state agencies only. I tend to disagree insofar as corporate or organizational bodies like e.g. Google, Facebook, Wikipedia etc. partially wield more power in manipulation and restriction of free speech than states. Only, it is pathetic to blame forum moderation as censorship, even if it goes over the top. I fail to see that you are forbidden to utter any opinion about the game e.g. on your homepage and elsewhere when moderators, maybe excessively, remove posts. Having read through lots of extremely toxic threads I fail to see  that dissenting opinions are generally suppressed. Just now, Retrograde admitted fault about the champ punishment after having received not even friendly comments.

 

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17 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

 

Me seems you are not aware how much you contradict yourself. Either, skill grind has become so easy that it drives the vets away, then, the question arises how still 80% or more of the playerhood are allegedly veterans, and further, why new players are allegedly driven away by the skill grind?

 

What you are telling about getting to lvl 90 in WS in a month, which is not a short period of time, it is not said or shown how many skiller tools/enchants, SB and SP etc. have been used. I am sure that helps a lot to speed up the process. And a month is bit more than 3 days.

 

If grinding WS is so easy, kindly explain why my really rather modest WS 53 qualifies my rank 338 vs my overall rank of 509. It means that only 337 Niarja registered accounts fare better than that. Why and how that if you can level up to 70 in less than 24 hours? And why are vet players like Roccandil still complaining about the grind? Get your facts straight.

 

As to the UI, it is neither that awful nor that dated, though there are some problems e.g. with misclicks in the dropdowns. Such is stuff for the suggestion forums. And yes, though it is clear that only a minority has a liking for games like Wurm, the churn rate is indeed too high, and the player influx too low.

 

But sorry, what you are writing about censorship, is rubbish. I refrain from comments whether the country with half of the worldwide prison population is the right place from which to preach about freedom. As an individual, I value your opinion as high or low as of any other human on the planet.

 

But especially in the US, the opinion is widespread that censorship is a matter of state agencies only. I tend to disagree insofar as corporate or organizational bodies like e.g. Google, Facebook, Wikipedia etc. partially wield more power in manipulation and restriction of free speech than states. Only, it is pathetic to blame forum moderation as censorship, even if it goes over the top. I fail to see that you are forbidden to utter any opinion about the game e.g. on your homepage and elsewhere when moderators, maybe excessively, remove posts. Having read through lots of extremely toxic threads I fail to see  that dissenting opinions are generally suppressed. Just now, Retrograde admitted fault about the champ punishment after having received not even friendly comments.

 

WS easy? WTF

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1 minute ago, tamat said:

WS easy? WTF

Not me who said that :)

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Me seems you are not aware how much you contradict yourself. Either, skill grind has become so easy that it drives the vets away, then, the question arises how still 80% or more of the playerhood are allegedly veterans, and further, why new players are allegedly driven away by the skill grind

 

I think you are confusing yourself by misinterpretation of what I have explained, unsure if it's intentional or not. It does drive vets away. As I mentioned earlier a majority of the people who are left are people who have been around for a long time and either have some sentimental interest in the game, or are heavily invested in it and as a consequence attempt to rough it out. I think any new player would be a bit disheartened to spend a month or two grinding an accout to the point where it has just a few 70+ skills, only to be later informed by a vet or someone experienced with the game "Oh, that's easy, you can get that in a few days" and then they're told about the skilling algorithm and such. The game itself loses a lot of luster at that point. I know countless people who haven't stuck around for this reason alone. People who were vets and left because they felt their efforts and time invested had been devalued, enough so that it hurt them and made the game no longer enjoyable to them.

 

50 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

explain why my really rather modest WS 53 qualifies my rank 338 vs my overall rank of 509. It means that only 337 Niarja registered accounts fare better than that. Why and how that if you can level up to 70 in less than 24 hours?

Because not everyone posts their skilldumps publicly on Niarja, and in fact I'd fare to say that most veterans (and especially people who play PvP) don't.

 

50 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

And why are vet players like Roccandil still complaining about the grind? Get your facts straight.

Lol because Roccandil is an Epic player. I wouldn't really consider the guy a vet either, he's been around for a few years but, I'm not sure more than 5. Either way he started on Epic, and I don't consider anyone who started on and mainly played epic, to be a Vet whatsoever as it's a completely different, watered down version of the real game. Epic is Wurm Easy Mode, of course Epic players are going to want the game to be easier, they're mostly casual players. Every change that's been forced on Freedom from Epic has been an absolute utteral disaster.

 

50 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

censorship, is rubbish

I will refrain from getting too political here, as this is not the place for such discussion but if you'd like to have it in private feel free to PM me. You are assuming the people agree with the practices of large corporations like Google, Facebook, etc. Which they don't. So don't take your assumptions too far. Just because those companies are based out of the US doesn't mean we agree with their practices any more than you do. If you would like me to provide you examples of ingame video that cannot be posted on these forums without it being removed or censored by the moderation team I will happily do so for you in private. There are plenty of topics we are not allowed to discuss, take a quick gander at the forum rules, and you will see that virtually any discussion pertaining to the wrongdoings or mishandling of certain situations by the GM team is strictly forbidden. (And I have personally been banned multiple times for speaking out on those topics)

Edited by whereami

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