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platinumteef

the future of pvp mechanics

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I am looking for some clarification on these mechanics coming forward in the new elevation thread and how they are going to affect the game as a whole in the future. The original post by whereami was directed to pvp as a whole. but it appears that epic is once again getting all of the spotlight.

 

That is fine. But what I want to know is, a lot of these mechanics are geared towards casual players and "bridging the gap", that is also fine to some degree. But I do not think we need to make the game so bland that there is absolutely no point in grinding. Without a reason to grind, this game becomes boring for a lot of us veterans, its why we're still around, right? This isn't counterstrike and I'm sorry if joeblow wants to jump in and play for 10 seconds and have his AK47 deal the same damage as my AK47 I spent 6 years grinding on.

 

We have absurdly reduced a lot of the gaps in pvp,, what more do we need? does 90 body control need to be the same as having 21? Does 90 strength need to be the same effective as 21? Does 1 weapon skill need to perform effectively as 99?

 

there needs to be a reason to play the game for more than 3 minutes per week

 

i'm sorry but you're going to lose all of your veteran players, the ones that stuck around during the shittiest times of the game, if you're going to be essentially making every starter toon the same as people with 1k+ days playtime

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I think the aim would be to Bring players into PVP sooner but give them a reason to grind to make their Account better once they get the taste and not die in 3 seconds instead of it being a Grind for 3 - 6 months just so you can JOIN pvp.
Meditation path was a big one, that was a set time to join.

Weapon skills imo should go untouched. Body stats are fine as they are. 
I mean if I'm on Mclovin and I come across Dadd, I want to scream in discord HELP HELP DADD IN LOCAL THAT ACC STRONG AS HELL, not, Oh dadd in local I can take that cause everything is the same.
I want to be scared of different names because of their stats, let's not even think about personal skill at this point.
And If I take down Dadd on Mclovin? Biggggggg memes dude, big memes. You don't just remove point to grind but you remove satisfaction of a kill.
I've killed people and felt no satisfaction, cause i knew their accounts were average, but I've killed accounts that i shouldn't be killing and it's just made my month, really don't want to lose that feeling.

It's just the items and certain Requirements outside of it..Like hell horses are a MUST. if you're a newb on a regular horse, you can't out run, you're not gonna out damage, your horse will 100% go down cause it's regular vs hh, 
that makes it a STRONG requirement.
Tomes, strong requirements.
MM, strong requirements.

Like remove things or tweak things like this - Why not give everybody the hell horses but keep the taming, why not remove all HH and just have everybody ride regular? It does a lot for us vets too, things Slow down, hh are just too fast, too strong.
I'd have us all walking tbh, i think that really helps the "gap" because strong will help the weak with mobs, travling, etc..

But yeah I'm with you on the stats, i want to grind to get certain things over others. Not this MM cash market or tome cash market. I don't want to have Requirements like HH which newer players just can't obtain without joining the big bois, cause of Animal Husbandry, Control, Taming.

So im rambling but thats my view

Edited by Mclavin
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Imagine wanting to fundamentally change the whole game when theres a much simpler way to fix it

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100% agree with you guys, the game is fine by now with stats.

 

@Mclavin

Why not reduce taming skill and body control requirement for HHs?

I still consider them a cool stuff beyond the huge gap from regular horses.

Edited by Davy

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Meditation and tomes are the big outliers, body strength and body stamina while not as big still prevent most newer players into pvp if they don't want to get instantly killed. The bridge that is what constitutes a ready pvp account vs a non ready pvp account is quite a challenge. Most new pvpers give up or can't even get to 30 body strength.

 

While you might not agree with this I still think lowering the bridge will entice new pvpers into the scene. I'd personally prefer way more catch up mechanics when it comes to characteristic stats and skills like shield. Most 'veteran' accounts have used windows of opportunity to skill which is why account sales for pvp is so paramount even today. This needs to stop. It's a problem worth the dev's time to tackle, and the dev's honestly should consider counter measures.

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Sindusk had a really good.curve system that allows you to quickly grind the early levels of pvp skills. Like leveling 1-50 should be cheese, something that you can get to casually, allowing you to be ENTRY LEVEL. Then once you get there, everything slows down. The idea is so we can shed the long grind to pvp, making newer accounts able to enter the arena and make a difference, while still getting stomped by dudes who have been around for millenia. If I get 5 noobs with 70 fs and 50 aggressive.fighting, we will loose a couple but will still be able.to kill Dadd. This would allow for wolfpack tactics being viable where sheer brute wallet force reigns.

 

Newer players dont need to be the same as old. They just need to be useful.

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It's a double edged sword no matter which approach you take. If you make players skill faster (even just through the early levels) and get it wrong, it can have some awful consequences.

  • If it's too fast, players will catch up quickly and that sense of pride and accomplishment (sorry) that players have from their existing accounts will be upset. You can't take that back, either, because reducing the skill gain after certain people obtained levels will steer away any new potential players. Essentially, a window of opportunity or borderline exploit of the system.
  • If you make it too slow, it's not solving the problem and the vast gap will remain. If it launches like this, then new players will feel like they're catching up too slowly and that it's not worth the time and effort.

If you adjust the skilling rate in any way, it has to be basically perfect to succeed, and cannot be fixed after the fact. On the flip side, you have their existing approach of implementing caps or curves on the existing system:

  • If the curve/cap is too high, then the gap remains too heavy and players will feel like it's not doing anything.
  • If the curve/cap is too low, then there will be no advantage to having a highly expensive, grinded account.

While there's still bad scenarios on both ends, this system can actually be fixed post-launch to make it feel better on either side. It doesn't affect progression of accounts. Any fix that gets implemented has an immediate effect on everyone, too, so it doesn't take time to see if the change had the desired effect.

 

As critical as I am of the decisions CodeClub makes, it's hard to argue that they've significantly improved recently. They've put out development streams, a road map, and have now shown people that there's a future for epic. If that trend continues, then we can expect a reasonable line of communication post-launch of the elevation reset, with monitoring on how the changes are working. My only guess at why they aren't discussing specifics of each system would be that they're either not finalized, or don't want to tip their hand too much right now.

 

If they're not finalized, then that's understandable, but it would be nice to know what the goals with the system are. Is it to make everyone with 40 body strength a contender against 70 body strength accounts? What situations are actually being targeted with this as the "solution?" Give an example of a problem that exists now that would be resolved with the new system.

 

If they're aiming to not tip their hand, I can actually respect that too. There's actually nothing wrong with keeping a formula secret. Due to the heavy RNG nature of the game, it's possible they could hide the formula from everyone (assuming they prevent it from going to WU). Just think of how many tools exist to manipulate the game right now. Grinder tells you the odds you have to get a skill tick. You can calculate a food affinity using an online calculator. Personal opinion, I think moving back to some form of uncertainty about how things work might be nice.

 

I literally have a calculator that you can plug in stats/items into, and it will simulate a combat between two players X amount of times and print out statistics. If the new systems break that calculator and make it invalid with no way to repair it, I think that's a good thing.

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1 hour ago, Sindusk said:

I literally have a calculator that you can plug in stats/items into, and it will simulate a combat between two players X amount of times and print out statistics. If the new systems break that calculator and make it invalid with no way to repair it, I think that's a good thing.

 

and that my friend is how you end up with people thinking that the difference between having 50 weapon skill and having 100 means that the person with 100 deals triple the damage and has 400% increased parry rate. this is in my opinion is the reason behind the very situation we are currently in, and the exact reason why so many mechanics are being adjusted to cater to people who don't want to grind

 

99% of the current problems (aside from the very obvious ones being DR from sotg and tomes) stem from people being so god damn unfamiliar with the mechanics they don't know what to think

 

most people still think that having 70 body strength sotg makes you completely unkillable and hello wake up call, it couldn't be further from the truth

 

transparency is the key for most of these problems, not hiding the formulas. letting people understand that just because they have 75 shield skill and not 99 doesn't break their characters ability to be competitive against the people that have put thousands of hours of time into skills

Edited by platinumteef

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Just now, FranktheTank said:

You own Nahjo right? Just confirming something.

 

that I do not

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You just need to have a server that is reset yearly, new map and skill wipes and content updates will keep it fresh. If people know they can jump into a PvP server with little to no risk they’ll do it and you’ll even have people who are strictly freedomers try it. I feel like the challenge server went fantastically and you hear that brought up constantly. What keeps a Challenge like server from happening? Too much work? Not enough resources? Please enlighten someone like me who has spent thousands of hours of playing and invested countless dollars just into premium and store bought silver who is waiting for a new alternative of pvp besides a map reset on a server where characters are stronger then NPC dragons.

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dragons are a joke now

 

we killed one on Elevation once

 

4 real players

with like 5 dual cliented accounts lol

Edited by Oreo
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3 minutes ago, Oreo said:

dragons are a joke now

 

we killed one on Elevation once

 

4 real players

with like 5 dual cliented accounts lol

 

Kind of my insinuation ?

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*disclaimer - thought I hit the send button last night, sorry for the delayed response.

 

I have to disagree with Niki.  I think a fresh map that has no effect on your items, skills or affinities on freedom is going to be the biggest draw to aspiring PvPers.  Until the staff finds a way to actually get NEW players into the game, much less PvP, I don't think we have to worry as much about appeasing new players as we do feeding content to the veteran players to get them to stay.

 

As for secret formulas, I wholeheartedly agree it should be public knowledge.  Yes, it will educate people about what they can and cannot do in a fight, but more importantly it will give newer players a glimpse of their chances and what they are getting into.

 

 

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I remember a few years back when a couple of us discussed this whole matter with some mechanic to speed skill gain up for new players to a certain level, i still think that is a good idea and at the same time i feel like removing tomes or remaking the benefits you get from them into something like a higher chance of creating rares or slightly higher imps while crafting instead of anything related to pvp would be better. 

 

Same with all the different priest there is, just have the original ones as it once was and balance them out instead of what we have now. I also agree on the HH, either lower the BC and taming required to use them or remove them and have everyone on regular horses. Would make it a lot more fun to pvp.

I don't want the game to turn into something boring because people are to lazy to grind but i think there needs to be a middle ground, use Epic as a testing ground now that it's said there will be a wipe in the end once the whatever is planned in a year or so gets out...try mechanics for skill gain etc for new players.

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How about we dont use live servers as a testing ground and instead use the, oh you know, the test server for testing?

 

A well announced testing campaign would surely get our pvpers to participate. Lets release into live servers only things that work.

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7 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

Lets release into live servers only things that work.

 

By that logic, Chaos should be shut down entirely.... lol.

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7 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

How about we dont use live servers as a testing ground and instead use the, oh you know, the test server for testing?

 

A well announced testing campaign would surely get our pvpers to participate. Lets release into live servers only things that work.

Ah I remember the days of siege testing, the walls I built, the  angles I organised, the different scenarios I was given as "live examples" but most importantly, I remember the 5 people who turned up to test. 

 

Fact  is no testing scenario can mimic pvp

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1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

5 people who turned up to test PVP

It vividly describes the current reality of Wurm PVP so I don't know what you're on about.

 

If you expect to get hundreds of people to show up for testing, you need to have hundreds of people who play on your chosen test enviroment first. 

 

[02:00:26] 21 other players are online in the Epic cluster. You are on Desertion (228 totally in Wurm).

 

21/4 = 5.25

 

Tell me I'm wrong.

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They need to stop making change to PVP and having it affect the PVE side of the game.  Run these two things on different courses!  

You DO need level playing field for PVP.  Otherwise, a noob will just get camped for LOLs.  Then quit.  Not come back.  Because... it takes 3-6 months to compete, just to compete!  That is, with the lowest level player.

 

It takes YEARS to compete with the top end accounts.  Meditation, priest abilities, fighting skills, having high QL smithing gear easy to access for replacement... etc...

 

When I first started many years ago I started a town and because it was near some vet's town him and his buddies camped my town literally day and night and it felt horrible to be so completely helpless and unable to even fight one of them 1v1, as the game is so one sided based on skills.

Edited by jonsnow

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9 hours ago, jonsnow said:

They need to stop making change to PVP and having it affect the PVE side of the game.  Run these two things on different courses!  

You DO need level playing field for PVP.  Otherwise, a noob will just get camped for LOLs.  Then quit.  Not come back.  Because... it takes 3-6 months to compete, just to compete!  That is, with the lowest level player.

 

It takes YEARS to compete with the top end accounts.  Meditation, priest abilities, fighting skills, having high QL smithing gear easy to access for replacement... etc...

 

When I first started many years ago I started a town and because it was near some vet's town him and his buddies camped my town literally day and night and it felt horrible to be so completely helpless and unable to even fight one of them 1v1, as the game is so one sided based on skills.

They have been trying to tweak, fix, improve, pvp mechanics since before I started in 2011... Good luck..  if they cant fix pvp mechanics in 10+ years then its a pretty clear horizon...

 

Quite a few games have had development times of less then what has been spent on fixing wurm pvp mechanics,  and a few are even decent.  I gave up hope long ago.

Edited by Nomadikhan

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1 hour ago, Nomadikhan said:

I gave up hope long ago.

I feel that this is where most of us are now.

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3 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

I feel that this is where most of us are now.

hehe I figured as much.

 

I'm probably wrong here, but it feels as tho after 10+ years of trying things and tweaking, balancing, fixing... it's almost best to just start over with pvp.  It's always seemed anytime a true balance was ever close at hand or as good as it could have been, new features were released which messed it up all over again, such as sorcery.  I feel wurm was much better without it, again, doubt many will find my view point valid.  I can't say much, I gave up pvp years ago when Rolf butchered Wild into chaos anyway.  The back and forth transition from full pvp to nope no catapults to okay lets pvp to nope ban in place again to okay we're freedom was enough.  :( :(

 

How many bumper stickers need to be used before you have more bumper sticker then metal bumper left?   It just doesn't make sense.

How many soaked band-aids before you realize maybe you should've just amputated.

How long must a dead horse be beaten until it no longer resembles said horse.

 

People can dislike my viewpoint on this one, but I'd rather see pvp just nuked and then reworked from the beginning, it's about the only way I'll consider going back.

Edited by Nomadikhan

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5 hours ago, Nomadikhan said:

They have been trying to tweak, fix, improve, pvp mechanics since before I started in 2011... Good luck..  if they cant fix pvp mechanics in 10+ years then its a pretty clear horizon...

 

Quite a few games have had development times of less then what has been spent on fixing wurm pvp mechanics,  and a few are even decent.  I gave up hope long ago.

game mode split isn't helping between chaos/epic, it's never really helped, when i started playing I didn't understand the point, still don't. They should focus on one and make it good instead of band-aid fixes spread across several patches.

 

 

 

 

some idea's below on ways to go forward:

 

I'd either merge the two or remove one PvP game mode, having both isn't working and the player count isn't there and it was really never there to begin with.

 

If you still disagree with removal, then allow skill transfer both ways on the clusters, from epic to freedom at a reduce rate. Right now people have been skilling on freedom because its pointless to do it on epic. Facts. This is bad for the player and it's nonsense game logic.

 

Also the map is too large, i'd make it a 2x2 and do a yearly or a 6 month reset on the map.

 

With this merge or restructuring of PvP, I'd make chaos a freedom server without the ability to place deeds, and allow the kingdoms to stay as long as they pay upkeep but combat disabled. Hota battle camps removed on Chaos and brought over to the new designated PvP server.

 

Devs should poll and allow players to vote on content if they actively participated in PvP on their accounts. What you think is right, most likely isn't what we want.

 

Make a new primary PvP server with the polled content the players wants and agrees with, every last detail should be considered before implementation. A group of 5 people that want to only want one horse led may not what everyone else wants. This common dev implementation is happening far to often which I think is causing more harm overall to the experience.

 

Thanks.

 

might add more later idk

Edited by Niki

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My ideas on how to go forward:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hold W

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