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Niki

Current state of discord moderation.

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4 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

Hell, PG-13 movies have more colorful language than what our discord allows. Its ridiculous.

 

I'm not much on Discord, but if it's anything like the forums...I once had a post edited to remove the part making (very mild) fun of the automatic word censoring. I think the irony was lost on the moderator. At that point I was surprised that the post wasn't wholly removed for having a word that "needed" censoring.

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35 minutes ago, vinius said:

The ultimate catch all.

The origin of those bans is the GM team not the Discord Moderators 

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1 hour ago, Capi said:

called toxic players

This.

 

Can you please define "toxic players"? What will get me classified as a toxic player?

 

Will calling Niki "hahaha you slipped off the dirt wall, ur dumb." classify me as a toxic player?

Will it classify me as a toxic player if Niki gets offended?

Is a toxic player one that catapults your deed constantly or one that posts jokes about your hair on discord?

Will I be a toxic player if I refuse to sell bricks to a specific group because they have a certain ideology?

 

See, there's no definition to the term "toxic player" other than whatever staff feels like applying to it at the moment. You say "toxic player" like it means anything. It does not. Its a catchphrase to ban/censor/kick whomever you feel like it. By some standards, I am a toxic player, yet I have never been robbed anyone, harassed anyone or even been warned in the forums. I could call you a "toxic staff member" right now, and what would that mean? Nothing. 

 

THAT mentality is what makes us shirnk away from your live services as much as possible. Because some special snowflake complains about some nerd saying mean things about them on the internet. But the point is not that someone is saying mean things about them... is the fact that everyone has a different definition to what its mean, and you are now using it as a standard to base your rules out of. If you can't see how biased that mentality is, then I don't know what to say. 

 

Me calling staff out for their shenanigans probably earns me the title of "toxic player". By now staff probably has a file on me the size of an almanac, even though I haven't broken a single rule. I am not going to go around pointing out when your staff has censored us, because its just easier for us to just not use your service. I just won't use your discord, or use it exclusively for the very few instances i need to get a hold of someone, and avoid posting on it like the plague. Its just simpler that way, and I am sure many more will follow suit just like me.

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33 minutes ago, Capi said:

The origin of those bans is the GM team not the Discord Moderators 

Hiding your actions behind the staff by segregating one from the other doesn't change the fact that its one team. If I say something that might get me in trouble on discord, the GM staff has the option to ban me in game. 

 

Which means that you're all working together

Which means the actions on one end affect the other.

Which means the origin of the bans can start with the Discord moderators, and it has.

Which means typing on discord can get me banned.

Which means I'm better off not using your discord.

 

 

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Of course you can get banned in game for doing something on discord. So can you when you talk on irc or in game why would discord be different. 

 

And why would we not work together? It doesn't make sense to have discord fully separate ignoring anything that happens on other platforms. 

 

And for toxic players: its not a decision made by a moderator on its own. It's a decision by the GM team for example this 

 

And no you don't have an almanac. In fact you don't even have a case file. We are not sitting at our computers hacking on our keyboard collecting data of users. If you never broke a rule you don't have a case file. 

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2 minutes ago, Capi said:

If you never broke a rule you don't have a case file.

You forget I was a Forum Mod, and I know this is not true. There was a lot of petty stuff in the cases there that did not amount to any type of violation.

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Well I searched by your name and found nothing beside your staff file but that's nothing that's about breaking rules or anything 

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Well that's good to know. Regardless, the one think I'd love to see is a more softer touch on Discord. Overmoderation kills discord. Think about the fact that switching servers on discord is super easy. When you can just freely type on any channel you go to, and then suddenly there is this one server that will warn you for using the more adult version of the word poop, you decide to just not participate there because you don't want to accidentally break the rules. And when repeated violations will get you penalized in game... well why you would participate there?

 

I know I am being antagonistic, but censorship has been a very big thing here in Wurm and I wish that someday someone would realize the damage they are doing to the community with the constant sanctions, bans and censorship. We love the game, but hate the fact we cannot just be ourselves.

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45 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

This.

 

Can you please define "toxic players"? What will get me classified as a toxic player?

 

Will calling Niki "hahaha you slipped off the dirt wall, ur dumb." classify me as a toxic player?

Will it classify me as a toxic player if Niki gets offended?

Is a toxic player one that catapults your deed constantly or one that posts jokes about your hair on discord?

Will I be a toxic player if I refuse to sell bricks to a specific group because they have a certain ideology?

 

See, there's no definition to the term "toxic player" other than whatever staff feels like applying to it at the moment. You say "toxic player" like it means anything. It does not. Its a catchphrase to ban/censor/kick whomever you feel like it. By some standards, I am a toxic player, yet I have never been robbed anyone, harassed anyone or even been warned in the forums. I could call you a "toxic staff member" right now, and what would that mean? Nothing. 

 

THAT mentality is what makes us shirnk away from your live services as much as possible. Because some special snowflake complains about some nerd saying mean things about them on the internet. But the point is not that someone is saying mean things about them... is the fact that everyone has a different definition to what its mean, and you are now using it as a standard to base your rules out of. If you can't see how biased that mentality is, then I don't know what to say. 

 

Me calling staff out for their shenanigans probably earns me the title of "toxic player". By now staff probably has a file on me the size of an almanac, even though I haven't broken a single rule. I am not going to go around pointing out when your staff has censored us, because its just easier for us to just not use your service. I just won't use your discord, or use it exclusively for the very few instances i need to get a hold of someone, and avoid posting on it like the plague. Its just simpler that way, and I am sure many more will follow suit just like me.

 

See, for me, toxic is pretty clear.  Wurms big strength is that it can be as social as you want, if you want to be a hermit on a mountain doing everything yourself, you can.  Some folks just like to make trouble, though, and go out of their way to troll or upset others just for kicks.  There's quite a lot of them in the pvp crowd, which is part of why I left way back when.  I imagine that the same group of people are trying sophistry on staff, trying to twist whatever they say, quote out of context, etc - when they get smacked for it, it must be staff bias, 'censorship', and so on.

 

The various comms channels run by CodeClub are theirs, absolutely, to run how they see fit.  If you don't like the way they're run, nobody is forcing you to stay here.  Go somewhere that is more to your liking, where you can be as racist, non-PG13, and generally unpleasant as you like.  It's funny how the majority of forum users (to take one channel) don't seem to have any trouble staying within the rules, and never run into the mod team at all.

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53 minutes ago, Wonka said:

 

See, for me, toxic is pretty clear.  Wurms big strength is that it can be as social as you want, if you want to be a hermit on a mountain doing everything yourself, you can.  Some folks just like to make trouble, though, and go out of their way to troll or upset others just for kicks.  There's quite a lot of them in the pvp crowd, which is part of why I left way back when.  I imagine that the same group of people are trying sophistry on staff, trying to twist whatever they say, quote out of context, etc - when they get smacked for it, it must be staff bias, 'censorship', and so on.

 

The various comms channels run by CodeClub are theirs, absolutely, to run how they see fit.  If you don't like the way they're run, nobody is forcing you to stay here.  Go somewhere that is more to your liking, where you can be as racist, non-PG13, and generally unpleasant as you like.  It's funny how the majority of forum users (to take one channel) don't seem to have any trouble staying within the rules, and never run into the mod team at all.

Find me a single instance where I have been racist, homophobic, have violated ANY rule, or even been non-pg13. Find me one. Should be easy no? Given I have 4,916 posts, at least one them should fall in that category, yes?

 

Yet I have been censored, had many of my posts removed, my threads locked, and even banned in game, without a single rule broken. Even Capi above admitted I don't even have a record.

 

Not everyone has the same experience you have, bud. I am a very active and vocal person in social mediums because its what I enjoy, and while I go to extreme lenghts to stay within the rules and avoid attacking people, it is near impossible to not offend someone. I had once a GM called on me because I bashed an off-deed minedoor that was nowhere near a deed and had no reinforcements inside. I had a guy complain about me because I didnt get the chisel he sent through the mail within 3 hours of him mailing it, even though I bought it through the forums and I was asleep at the time of delivery.  I had another said I was a toxic.player because I parked my cart in front of his deed overnight because I was dead tired and my horses packed his grass.

 

No matter what you do, you will offend someone. That's why there has to be clear rules about whats right or wrong. Simply cartering to the one that whines the loudest is not okay.

 

Just because you havent been a victim of it doesn't mean the mistreatment hasn't happened. Some of us do speak up because we care about the game and would like to see it succeed.

 

Imagine that.

 

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My apologies, I did not mean to imply that you personally had been racist, etc - that's poor wording on my part.  However, given that this thread is about over-moderation on discord, and I've hopped into one of the 'alternative' non-official discords being touted by those who have run afoul of moderation, I can only say that if what folks had been saying in the official channels is even a fraction as offensive as what I saw in the non-official ones, then I can see exactly how they ended up banned.  'Toxic' seems to fit those individuals perfectly, to my understanding of the word, and I have zero desire to share anything with them.  Again, no implication that you share anything with such individuals (beyond perhaps a slightly antagonistic approach to argument) - I have no evidence that you are racist, homophobic, etc, and did not intend to suggest that.

 

I can't say why you've had posts etc removed, only staff could.  As several senior staff have said here, you can contact them to ask about that - I assume you've done that and you're unsatisfied with the responses?  I have to imagine that only serious infractions result in records, otherwise staff would spend more time writing up every minor thing they did than actually moderating.  I'm not suggesting that 'toxic' should mean 'offended someone minorly, ever' - that's clearly a strawman argument.  The in-game examples you've cited are clearly trivial, and I doubt you received any sanctions for them - when you had a GM called on you, did he do anything other than talk to you to figure out what happened and move on?  You've described several in-game interactions that seem trivial; however, when approached by the other parties, did you respond calmly or with a stream of vitriol?  I would suggest that being toxic is about how you respond to others (staff included) as much as what you do.

 

My contention is that when only a minority of users find they run into issues with the rules governing a particular community, it may be that the issue is with those individuals rather than the community or it's accepted norms of behaviour.  Possibly the issue is that the individuals concerned would be better somewhere else, and nothing more.  Perhaps something more.  I have no figures to back this up - only the various moderation teams will be able to say how many people cross their radars as a percentage of total users - only an impression based on my own observations.  It seems to me that:

  1. the number of people sanctioned or who seem to persistently run afoul of staff is small, even within the low number of active users
  2. the people who run into issues tend to come from the pvp crowd rather than the pve crowd.  Not universally, but primarily.
  3. the number of people permanantly excluded is a very small proportion of the numbers sanctioned at all, and a tiny proportion of total numbers

I seriously doubt you've been banned "without a single rule broken".  I expect that you disagree with an interpretation of a rule, or with the judgement of a staff member, or possibly with a rule at all.  I assume you've appealed said ban, which I'm guessing was investigated and you were informed that it was correct and would stand?  I'm not saying staff are perfect, or that they get it right every time.  Of course they don't.  I am saying that there seem to be robust procedures in place for dealing with this, and my experience, and that of the people I play with, has been that they generally work.  Also, disagreeing with a sanction is not sufficient reason for a sanction not to apply, nor does it constitute wrong-doing on the part of staff.  All moderation has to rely on a degree of personal judgement, and moderators (and presumably staff in general) are chosen because they exhibit the level of judgement and outlook expected by those who decide policy.  You say you were a forum mod, but don't seem to be now.  Can I guess that you found your own judgement and expectations did not match what was expected of your position, and you either left or were asked to leave?

 

The counter arguments to this view I've seen on the forums seem to be as much an opportunity to slag off the moderation teams as anything else, and they seem to come from a small number of very vocal players, often who have been sanctioned multiple times.  There may be a few bad apples in the moderation team (which I'm not seeing any evidence of), but their actions should be pretty obvious to those in charge, especially if they're receiving multiple reports about those individuals.

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1 hour ago, Wonka said:

My contention is that when only a minority of users find they run into issues with the rules governing a particular community, it may be that the issue is with those individuals rather than the community or it's accepted norms of behaviour.

 

That is fair, and probably true for the most part in practice, but it's also entirely possible that people just play it safe because fuzzy definitions and boundaries are not exactly confidence inspiring. Notice how @Angelklainehas asked for a definition of a toxic player from someone who's in charge of enforcing actions against such players, and Capi has just referenced a GM Hall thread in which "some other players who needed to be removed" were referenced ominiously? Why'd they not get an explanation? But the hackers who would quite obviously know what they got busted for did? It didn't exactly answer the question, either...

 

It just feels like being surrounded by a minefield. Under such circumstances, I think people rather stick within the boundaries of "not toxic" rather than risk overstepping the boundaries of "toxic". Ideally this would be a binary problem as the wording implies, but it's not. There's a grey area. And in Wurm's moderation in general, the grey area feels unreasonably big on a number of things. That's the whole contention, and one that I share.

 

Either way, I think it's a bit of an ad populi argument to say the lines are clear enough because most people manage to stick to it, and doesn't exonerate the dodginess on actually drawing these lines that is being displayed here. Another example is the way political discussions are shut down in the chat. The rules don't outright forbid them, and not every political comment or reference gets outright deleted or muted in the chat, but you barely see any politics in the chat despite there being some leeway, and I think a good part of it is risk-aversion. You don't touch the stove mutliple times to see if it's hot. So I don't even know if that "policy" is still in place, and without rules outright forbidding them, I must assume it is or risking repercussions trying to talk about politics and see when it gets shut down.

 

This is not to say that everything must be ruled minutely in form and moderator discretion isn't important to delineate within the inevitable grey area.

But there are instances where the rules could be demonstrably better defined; fuzzy boundaries can achieve a chilling effect that may even unwittingly suppress legitimate behaviour (Real life example: Managers not talking to female employees 1on1 because of MeToo).

That's not exactly healthy to a community environment that is "as social as you want it to be". Maybe I enjoy a civil discourse with someone I disagree with. Others may find it disruptive because they're apolitical and don't care for either side. Is that the reason it gets shut off eventually?

 

By all means, keep the minefield, I'm not asking for clearly unacceptable behaviour to be normalized. A fence where the minefield begins would be nice though, it would feel quite liberating to know where to step other than where you have already been.

Edited by Flubb
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5 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

Well that's good to know. Regardless, the one think I'd love to see is a more softer touch on Discord. Overmoderation kills discord. Think about the fact that switching servers on discord is super easy. When you can just freely type on any channel you go to, and then suddenly there is this one server that will warn you for using the more adult version of the word poop, you decide to just not participate there because you don't want to accidentally break the rules. And when repeated violations will get you penalized in game... well why you would participate there?

 

Here's the thing, though: We don't warn people for that. Swearing isn't banned. People who have been banned due to their history on Discord have been for much, much better reasons than that.

 

I can't speak for users banned on Discord due to their behavior elsewhere, since those decisions would be made by, for example, the GM team. As far as Discord behavior is concerned, though, it generally takes many incidents of significant rule-breaking in order to get banned even temporarily.

 

We follow standardized operational procedures, escalation, and logging practices, especially since the addition of a formal Discord Moderator staff role.

 

Quote

By all means, keep the minefield, I'm not asking for clearly unacceptable behaviour to be normalized. A fence where the minefield begins would be nice though, it would feel quite liberating to know where to step other than where you have already been.

 

The rules are clearly posted. As far as "toxic behavior" is concerned, there's just no way to clearly define every possible way in which a player can be toxic to the community. We can try, but there's just no way to be exhaustive about enumerating every single one.

 

I can say with some confidence that it's not really a "minefield"; people who have had significant moderation actions taken against them broke the rules fairly clearly. It should be very telling that people complaining about Discord moderation are generally either unable or unwilling to provide specific examples; and if they do have specific examples, they can have their cases appealed.

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I will never appreciate the blanket theme of totalitarian rulership that seems to permeate most of the decisions made by moderation teams to the extent it feels like I am living in 1930s Germany. This might be because a vast majority of staff are European and have far different ideas on what they personally find worthy of action. 

It is more so a battle in recent years than any others, as if those with the thinnest skin are allowed the most voice and power on these teams, which really doesn't surprise me. Which is why I have to at least give props to @Retrogradefor taking tremendous amounts of flak, I wager it is in relation to his nationality and the people's carry on attitude.

 

I have been around for a lot, maybe I haven't been playing the game concurrently for the past 10 years, but I have been "orbiting" across multiple platforms for as longs as I can remember. 

I know how this might sound but honestly what the team needs is some excrement tossers, because the majority of staff keeps goose stepping across everyone. There seems to be no counter-balance anymore which we seemingly had when people like Duce were still around. 

 

What I find most hilarious  is that you people genuinely do not know what Toxic is. Like honestly your concept of what constitutes toxic is laughable. I would love for you all to forcibly spend time with me and my ilk to get a grasp and get a grip. 

 

None of the current staff would agree with this statement but: You need to put a "toxic" person on your team to counter balance your asinine ideas because you carry innate biases that gain you no respect.

 

I have a feeling you read that bold text and your immediate thought was "I will make them respect me".

Edited by FranktheTank
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7 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

This.

 

Can you please define "toxic players"? What will get me classified as a toxic player?

 

Will calling Niki "hahaha you slipped off the dirt wall, ur dumb." classify me as a toxic player?

Will it classify me as a toxic player if Niki gets offended?

Is a toxic player one that catapults your deed constantly or one that posts jokes about your hair on discord?

Will I be a toxic player if I refuse to sell bricks to a specific group because they have a certain ideology?

 

See, there's no definition to the term "toxic player" other than whatever staff feels like applying to it at the moment. You say "toxic player" like it means anything. It does not. Its a catchphrase to ban/censor/kick whomever you feel like it. By some standards, I am a toxic player, yet I have never been robbed anyone, harassed anyone or even been warned in the forums. I could call you a "toxic staff member" right now, and what would that mean? Nothing. 

 

THAT mentality is what makes us shirnk away from your live services as much as possible. Because some special snowflake complains about some nerd saying mean things about them on the internet. But the point is not that someone is saying mean things about them... is the fact that everyone has a different definition to what its mean, and you are now using it as a standard to base your rules out of. If you can't see how biased that mentality is, then I don't know what to say. 

 

Me calling staff out for their shenanigans probably earns me the title of "toxic player". By now staff probably has a file on me the size of an almanac, even though I haven't broken a single rule. I am not going to go around pointing out when your staff has censored us, because its just easier for us to just not use your service. I just won't use your discord, or use it exclusively for the very few instances i need to get a hold of someone, and avoid posting on it like the plague. Its just simpler that way, and I am sure many more will follow suit just like me.

 

I agree they probably have records for all of us that are passionate about injustice or errors with the game. I sense it and believe you are correct.

 

The biggest thing I have with the term "toxic player" is it's used where applicable and most of the time over-used. With your example would being overly offended, be a form of toxicity by the staff? I think so.. See it never stops, they can continue to use it indefinably.

Edited by Niki

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13 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

I have been warned for.saying simple and rather mild words I have never been warned for in these forums, and the fact that I have been there makes me avoid our discord like the plague. You guys have made exactly what we asked you to not do out of it. Hell, PG-13 movies have more colorful language than what our discord allows. Its ridiculous.

 

 

I honestly don't know which language you're referring to. The moderation case log doesn't show anything about you, so it's possible this was before we revamped and standardized moderation practices, but swearing was never against the rules, and isn't now. Bypassing the word filter is against the rules, but 1) this requires active intent, not simply making a mistake, and 2) the word filter is significantly less strict than it was before anyway.

 

If you want to PM me or Capi with the stuff you got warned over, we can give a clearer answer about why you may have been warned, and whether or not that reflects the current rules.

 

Quote

Which arose out of a comment made on discord. And until staff mans up and decides to release the reason why they banned him, is what most of us will believe. Otherwise why won't you tell us? Transparency was promised, remember?

 

His comments on Discord were related to his in-game behavior. The in-game behavior was a far more salient problem than what he said about it on Discord, and that's a GM team matter, not a Discord team matter.

 

16 minutes ago, Niki said:

I agree they probably have records for all of us that are passionate about injustice or errors with the game. I sense it and believe you are correct. 

 

The Discord team absolutely does not keep records of this nature. We aren't out to get you. We have records of actual moderation cases; that's it.

 

 

Again, people complaining about censorship, etc. can feel free to PM myself or Capi with any examples. If you can't give any examples, then frankly, I feel that speaks for itself.

Edited by Ostentatio
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4 hours ago, Wonka said:

I seriously doubt you've been banned "without a single rule broken". 

You are using assumptions and suppositions as your argument. "I think, must be." The reason why many of us are unhappy is. Because we have experienced or witnessed these things. I won't sit here and pick apart your post because frankly I don"t want to antagonize you, but the reason I am so passionate about this is because of the experiences I have seen and had over the years.

 

That being said I am not saying acting against the rules should not be punished. By all means if I hurl slurs at people and harass someone, I understand why a GM would have a talk with me. But that is not the purview lf these arguments. The reason we are upset is because even when we dont break the rules we get censored, warned and taken action against because someone said we did something we didn't do, or they didn't feel what we said did not align with their opinions, wether it was a fact it was within the rules.

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10 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

 

I honestly don't know which language you're referring to. The moderation case log doesn't show anything about you, so it's possible this was before we revamped and standardized moderation practices, but swearing was never against the rules, and isn't now. Bypassing the word filter is against the rules, but 1) this requires active intent, not simply making a mistake, and 2) the word filter is significantly less strict than it was before anyway.

 

If you want to PM me or Capi with the stuff you got warned over, we can give a clearer answer about why you may have been warned, and whether or not that reflects the current rules.

 

 

His comments on Discord were related to his in-game behavior. The in-game behavior was a far more salient problem than what he said about it on Discord, and that's a GM team matter, not a Discord team matter.

 

 

The Discord team absolutely does not keep records of this nature. We aren't out to get you. We have records of actual moderation cases; that's it.

You fail to grasp the concept of what is being discussed here. Discord is not the point, its an example of the extensive censoring that happens. I e. Joey once posted a rocket emoticon as a reply to someone who complained about fireworks during 4th of july. He was warned and booted for trolling and his posts were removed.

 

This happened long ago, yes, but many of us have stopped posting long ago due to things like this. Your job as moderation is keeping it civil, not to protect the feelers of every special snowflake out there. 

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14 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

Because we have experienced or witnessed these things

Well then bring them to me. I absolutely can't stand people who complain about a system and bring up arguments and don't present me any facts. I haven't gotten a Pm about someone's messages getting censored because it contained something "we don't like". Of course you can have a different opinion than us. That is good. But Im getting tired of people dragging this out so kind of major conspiracy against players. We do not spend our whole day to keep track of your opinion and log it and check if we like it or not. That sounds ridiculous. And expanding this topic to some global issue might make sense to you but doesn't improve the situation. 

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3 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

You fail to grasp the concept of what is being discussed here. Discord is not the point, its an example of the extensive censoring that happens.

 

This thread is specifically about Discord, though. If you're not referring to Discord, it would probably help to specify what you are talking about, since the Discord moderation team is separate from the CM, GM, and FM teams. Confusing them all won't help matters.

 

Quote

I e. Joey once posted a rocket emoticon as a reply to someone who complained about fireworks during 4th of july. He was warned and booted for trolling and his posts were removed. 

 

This was long enough ago that we didn't log it, and this probably isn't what would happen under our current procedures, although I can't say for sure without knowing exactly what happened. At this point, it's moot, since Joey was banned permanently after a long and significant history of harassment and rule-breaking that goes far beyond minor trolling.

 

Quote

This happened long ago, yes, but many of us have stopped posting long ago due to things like this

 

That's partly why I'm mentioning that our practices have become more standardized since the Discord server first went up. At first, there was no dedicated Discord moderation team, and enforcement policies had yet to be as structured as they are now. We did this because we do want accountability and standardized rules & practices, despite what many posts here would have you believe.

 

If anyone is concerned about using the official Wurm Discord for fear of undue censorship, I fully encourage them to give it another shot. We aren't out to get people for no reason.

 

And honestly? I wouldn't want to be out to get people just because I don't like them. I don't want to be filling out case paperwork and handling moderation at 12AM just because someone said something I don't like. It's not fun, and with the level of accountability we have now, that sort of petty nonsense wouldn't even be an option.

Edited by Ostentatio
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1 hour ago, FranktheTank said:

I will never appreciate the blanket theme of totalitarian rulership that seems to permeate most of the decisions made by moderation teams to the extent it feels like I am living in 1930s Germany. This might be because a vast majority of staff are European and have far different ideas on what they personally find worthy of action. 

It is more so a battle in recent years than any others, as if those with the thinnest skin are allowed the most voice and power on these teams, which really doesn't surprise me. Which is why I have to at least give props to @Retrogradefor taking tremendous amounts of flak, I wager it is in relation to his nationality and the people's carry on attitude.

 

I have been around for a lot, maybe I haven't been playing the game concurrently for the past 10 years, but I have been "orbiting" across multiple platforms for as longs as I can remember. 

I know how this might sound but honestly what the team needs is some excrement tossers, because the majority of staff keeps goose stepping across everyone. There seems to be no counter-balance anymore which we seemingly had when people like Duce were still around. 

 

What I find most hilarious  is that you people genuinely do not know what Toxic is. Like honestly your concept of what constitutes toxic is laughable. I would love for you all to forcibly spend time with me and my ilk to get a grasp and get a grip. 

 

None of the current staff would agree with this statement but: You need to put a "toxic" person on your team to counter balance your asinine ideas because you carry innate biases that gain you no respect.

 

I have a feeling you read that bold text and your immediate thought was "I will make them respect me".

I didn't really want to comment much on this thread,  as it is really a bit of a port-0-potty slush mileau feeding on itself whipping up a froth in it's own energy and symbiosis.  ok..so now that i got my 3cent words out for the day..oh i get tired of the flack i get for the way i speak which fits with this post, peoples tolerances are hair thin.  fookin frank da tank hit this one on.  Dude it's scary to see people grow, elevate, mature and beautiful too.  I'm sad and proud of you all in one for how you wrote this with constraint, depth of thought , and some street honesty.  I think if the team could feel less threatened by the comments, more secure that we are all here together and not an us vs them. I'm confident they'd have an ah hah moment of what you are saying here at face value and a layer underneath too.  Some things i recognize in the moderation now, the inconsistency, the overstepping too quick to react.   What i don't recognize anymore, is where is the training, where is the perspective required to discern the nuances of text and intent.  Instead it looks like we have people at communication 101 literal level and missing all the forest for the trees.  I once had big plans for this aspect to the game in changes.  I admittedly tossed my hands in the air and gave up before seeing it through.  However stubborn staff want to be in their belief they are right here..it has to be compelling the feedback here that you obviously have something very very very wrong going on endemic to something larger.  Hats off to you Frankthetank truly you have earned some major respect from me in this quality post..ffs it's like you transcended your own self.   I dont' even know you so it's not coming from some place of personal bias or ego stroking.  Yah i know of you from pvp.  Again, amazing writing.  Now there would be a good ballasting, put frank in there.  In years past we did have those counter balances you speak of to help each other arrive at the best decisions and teach each other to think better, perform the task better.  sorry for my novella..what else is new..

Edited by Bloodscythe
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40 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

You are using assumptions and suppositions as your argument. "I think, must be." The reason why many of us are unhappy is. Because we have experienced or witnessed these things. I won't sit here and pick apart your post because frankly I don"t want to antagonize you, but the reason I am so passionate about this is because of the experiences I have seen and had over the years.

 

That being said I am not saying acting against the rules should not be punished. By all means if I hurl slurs at people and harass someone, I understand why a GM would have a talk with me. But that is not the purview lf these arguments. The reason we are upset is because even when we dont break the rules we get censored, warned and taken action against because someone said we did something we didn't do, or they didn't feel what we said did not align with their opinions, wether it was a fact it was within the rules.

 

I'm not sure my argument is any different from yours in that regard - I'm stating an opinion and the logic and inputs I used to arrive at it.  Your experience is clearly quite different to mine, but neither of us are staff, and neither of us have access to hard data to back our positions.  My argument is essentially that there is clearly a disconnect between what you think and what staff think, in that you say you've not broken any rules, but various staff presumably think you have, since they've applied sanctions.  Again, if you feel the sanctions were unjust (and you've given one example of when this happened), have you appealed them via the channels open to you?  If you got no answer, or the answer was "haha, you suck, loser!" then I would 100% be right behind you calling for changes, burning pitchfork in hand.  I can only speak from my own experience and those immediately around me, but I've generally found the staff polite and approachable, and prepared to explain why something happened.  I may not have always agreed with a decision, but as I've not personally run into moderation from the wrong end, I guess I have less personal skin in this game, so I may be more sanguine about it.

 

If you feel you're being picked on by particular staff members, or rules are being enforced inconsistently, please take specific examples to the relevant leads, so they can actually do something about it.  And I ask that for the good of all of us (I'm sure I'll say something stupid enough to draw a mods attention eventually).  My experience of various people who have moderation responsibilities in wurm has been that they want to get better at what they do, but I don't see that random accusations of generic wrongdoing with no specifics made publicly really help them with that; in fact, it probably hinders the change you're professing to want.

 

1 hour ago, FranktheTank said:

None of the current staff would agree with this statement but: You need to put a "toxic" person on your team to counter balance your asinine ideas because you carry innate biases that gain you no respect.

 

Oddly enough, I'm pretty sure staff didn't volunteer because they want your respect, nor does the lack of your (or any of our) respect form a significant input in moderation.  Just like how whether you have a premium toon or not makes no difference to moderation (nor should it).

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36 minutes ago, Capi said:

Well then bring them to me. I absolutely can't stand people who complain about a system and bring up arguments and don't present me any facts. I haven't gotten a Pm about someone's messages getting censored because it contained something "we don't like". Of course you can have a different opinion than us. That is good. But Im getting tired of people dragging this out so kind of major conspiracy against players. We do not spend our whole day to keep track of your opinion and log it and check if we like it or not. That sounds ridiculous. And expanding this topic to some global issue might make sense to you but doesn't improve the situation. 

No one is saying there is a conspiracy Capi, what we are saying is how we feel after having to deal with issues over the long haul and why we have made non official discords where we feel we can talk about issues we have with staff and the game itself without being accused of things such as "staff bashing" which is an issue we often face.

 

I am not going to sit here for days searching for "transgressions" of DELETED stuff to bring to you. Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds? "Bring me evidence of stuff we HID so I can address it." Lol. What? We are discussing censoring... The point it was CENSORED is the whole point. Its not.there anymore.

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6 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

I am not going to sit here for days searching for "transgressions" of DELETED stuff to bring to you. Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds? "Bring me evidence of stuff we HID so I can address it." Lol. What? We are discussing censoring... The point it was CENSORED is the whole point. Its not.there anymore.

 

We would still know, and be able to look up, what was deleted. Even if someone came to us with "Yeah, you deleted something of mine I said about a month ago", we'd be able to look it up and very likely find out what it was.

 

What we cannot do is read people's minds and reassess situations nobody is even telling us about.

 

The Joey "rocket emoji" story is virtually the only specific example raised in this thread, and from what I can understand from speaking to others, the account of it given in this thread does not give an accurate picture. This is what happens when you rely on one person's account of events from two years ago.

Edited by Ostentatio
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12 minutes ago, Wonka said:

Oddly enough, I'm pretty sure staff didn't volunteer because they want your respect, nor does the lack of your (or any of our) respect form a significant input in moderation.  Just like how whether you have a premium toon or not makes no difference to moderation (nor should it).

Thank you for stating you don't think mutual respect between players and GM team is necessary; and continuing to justify the attitudes I laid out as a problem.

 

 

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