Darklords

A New Elevation

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1 hour ago, Darklords said:

No solid decision but a 2k map might be a bit small for pmks, we are open for opinions on this for sure like with delaying border crossings it could be something that is allowed later once things are settled in but not right away

Smaller map for X kingdoms is still better than bigger map for X kingdoms

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Not extreme enough.

 

Will not play.

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Just now, Oreo said:

Not extreme enough.

 

Will not play.

 

sry

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There's a lot of gameplay system interactions between the changes here. Some of them might not turn out as expected, but that's part of the fun when it comes to trying something new.

 

2 hours ago, Darklords said:
  • Deeds disbanding on a set number of chain drains(Elevation Only)
    • A common complaint is deeds can be near impossible to disband even after its clear the owner has not been defending it in days.
    • Our current plan is to require 5 drains in a row to disband a deed but we are open to suggestions on what number of drains in a row should trigger an auto disband of that deed.
  • Stone Skin, True Strike, and Continuum will have their cooldowns drastically increased to 1 hour.
    • Currently these spells are way to powerful and can be cast almost endlessly with enough karma. We are looking for some feedback on what you think good cooldown lengths might be for each of these spells on their own.
  • Reduce Hell Horse Speeds
    • Hell horses might be a little too fast, we are looking for ideas on how you would like to see them slowed down some ideas include reducing rare shoe bonus and removing the always on speed traits.
  • Combat skill Soft Caps
    • To help balance out the top tier accounts vs people just joining we would like offer a sort of soft cap on some combat related skills including body stats.  This would not make leveling them any slower but would reduce your effectiveness per level in that skill above a set level for each.
    • Your total carry weight(for example) and other less combat oriented areas will still receive full benefit from levels.
  • Open up quick travel between any server border with a 1 hour cooldown for everyone on the boat before they may cross using that again.
    • Many know that sailing between servers on the epic cluster can turn into 2+ hour long trips, I would like to find some reasonable limit to help prevent abuse but I think we can find a good middle ground any suggestions appreciated.
  • Remove Karma Recall(Along with recall being gone will mean no teleporting out of stupid situations you might get into).
    • It’s no fun to be tracking someone down from a sticky situation they got into and for them to just vanish from being cornered back to a safe deed with everything they own. 
  • Deed disband after X in a row will create frustration.
    • It's unrealistic to expect players to be able to continuously assault a deed for almost a week straight. Imagine getting to 4 in a row, then on the 5th day you can't get enough people to match the defending force. All four days of success are undone by a single bad day.
    • The better solution is to implement a new mechanic of some kind for each deed, something akin to "Unrest" which would increase per drain, then decrease over time. For example, +20 unrest per drain, -10 unrest per day it's not drained. Deed disbands if it reaches 100 unrest.
    • This allows players to continuously assault a deed, but doesn't require a "perfect" assault over the course of a week. If they miss a drain or two, they don't have to start over. This also increases the importance of consistent defense. If a kingdom lets a deed get drained heavily, they now have to consistently defend that deed in order to prevent it from disbanding instead of simply spending the day watching it.
  • Stone Skin, True Strike, and Continuum need to either be disabled or reworked/nerfed on epic.
    • These spells are just egregious in the current combat system. Providing a cooldown is the least effective fix. It doesn't prevent them from doing the damage they deal. These karma spells alone can mean life or death, literally. A proper stack of truestrikes on a target can get them killed nearly instantly, swinging the tides of a combat.
    • Instead of just putting a cooldown on them and keeping their power the same, nerf them like crazy. Stone skin can cause the next 1 attack to miss. True strike can offer a single critical hit. Continuum can provide 5% damage reduction. These are really simple numerical changes that can be implemented quickly behind if(epic) statements. You can stack the cooldown on top of the nerfs if you want, but just implementing the cooldown isn't enough.
  • Hell Horses and mounts in general have more issues than just going too fast.
    • I believe I repeat this far too often, but horses actually have a random chance to be slowed down when damaged. I've thoroughly tested this in the past, and it can take up to 20 seconds to slow a horse after it's taken damage. This is something I've fixed in a mod on WU a long time ago (it's part of WyvernMods if you want to steal the code) and is something I hope is looked at for the base game when you tweak mount speeds.
    • Hell horses are too fast, but most of it comes from the gear that's on the horse. It works as an additive modifier to horse speed and can actually counteract damage inflicted because the additive bonus outpaces the slow from being damaged. The nerfs to horse speed should come from nerfing horse gear, not nerfing horses.
      • Personal recommendation is to adjust gear to be multiplicative modifiers instead of additive. Then re-scale their bonuses at maximum QL/enchant to be slightly lower than the current maximum.
  • Combat skill caps will affect skilling.
    • If you can't block, you don't get shield skill. Keep this in mind. These combat soft caps are actually a good idea, but ensure to make them PvP-specific, similar to how body strength already scales specific to player vs player combat instead of player vs creature.
  • Quick travel between server borders should be prevented if enemies are in local.
    • This should probably go without saying, but I've made this mistake in the past...
  • Karma teleport isn't the only method of instant teleportation.
    • The insanity teleport, home teleport from meditation (which should be covered by meditation changes), and farwalker twigs/stones are also available as methods of quick getaways.
    • If karma teleport is to be disabled, other methods of "get away immediately after I drop out of local" should be looked at as well.
2 hours ago, Darklords said:

Map Reset Specific Changes (Elevation Only)

  • Can only have 4 mine doors placed on any given 11x11 area and must have 3 spaces between each individual mine door.
    • We all know of the current mine door meta, we would like to end that with this new map and put some hard caps on the amount of mine doors in a given area.
  • This is a very arbitrary limitation that is difficult to convey to players.
    • When a player can't place a mine door, they have to look all over to figure out why.
    • An alternative solution would be to make them more easily broken via increasing the multiplier (similar to how tower chaining does it). Pushing through mines is risky enough as is with shaker orbs becoming a death trap. Allowing mine doors to be more easily broken is probably okay.
    • Secondarily, preventing players from replacing mine doors while enemies are in local.
    • There's a lot of different solutions for the mine door meta, but I don't think this is the correct one.

It's a good start towards improving the landscape of epic. After nearly 4 years there will be new chapter in the story of Wurm PvP. A new chapter will start with kingdoms being formed and borders being drawn. It will also be exciting to see how the new systems interact with a fresh map, especially one that isn't so large.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BrokenSanity said:

Looking good, I'm getting some real old-school wurm pvp vibes from this update, what with the hell horse changes, less DR, etc.

 

Can I suggest removing (or changing the effect) of things like Frost Salves and Acid Potions?

 

Otherwise, it's just another "must have" that prevents people getting involved quickly.

 

 

I am more or less neutral about this specifically, but at a high level, removing too many options might make the game less appealing. 

 

For this, there is the option of level 9 path of power as a temporary counter.

 

Elemental Immunity

Gained at level 9

You get the option on your Body (in your inventory). This will make you immune to elemental damage (fire, ice, acid and water ; natural or spells) for 30 minutes. This includes immunity to lava and drowning. It has a cooldown of 18 hours.

Edited by Galatyn

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How about to consider the new Elevation being fully separated from anything else just like Pri/Rel was when started? So only new toons, no stuff influx etc. That would address most of the issues for those few months even without any tweaks. I mean fully separated, no Freedom portals either.

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Posted (edited)

For the current population size (and even if it was to quadruple) I strongly recommend you go with a smaller map. Just like in real life, close proximity is what drives aggression/combat etc.  DesV2 had a 2k map, same with DesV4. Both of them had less intense combat then DesV3 which was 1k. 

 

DesV3 also had at least 140 concurrent players online at all times over an 8 week period with population peaks hitting 240 to 260 players. This is far above what WO sees today. Even on DesV3 there were large areas of the map that were abandoned and not used with most population living on the front lines.

 

If you want a combat zone then make one. Going too big is just encouraging separation and longer travel times, both things which reduce the intensity and likelihood of combat.

Edited by Nappy

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If it's not to hard for the combat soft caps then it could progress from like 20-90+ over a 4-6 month period so keep everyone close together in fighting skills. Kind of turn into more of a strategy game for the people who will always be caped out 

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3 hours ago, Gladiator said:

Skill reset or this will ultimately fail.

Agree

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2k map is good, old Ele, whilst deso had a smaller map it was also a lot of close- to-deed combat, I'd like space for hunting and roaming and 2k has been proven to give space for conquest, roaming and good pvp

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How about removing player gods? Libila, Fo, Mag, and Vynora only.

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26 minutes ago, Spy said:

Agree

 

Then allow a full skill transfer from Epic to Freedom. Otherwise, no.

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Posted (edited)

Reduce Hell Horse Speeds

  • Hell horses might be a little too fast, we are looking for ideas on how you would like to see them slowed down some ideas include reducing rare shoe bonus and removing the always on speed traits

Remove hell horses. It creates another requirement (taming/charm/body control) and it creates a meta. They're too fast and tbh too strong

 

Remove Karma Recall(Along with recall being gone will mean no teleporting out of stupid situations you might get into).

  • It’s no fun to be tracking someone down from a sticky situation they got into and for them to just vanish from being cornered back to a safe deed with everything they own. 

I dc'd once logged back in and an eagle spirit killed my hell horse. I was stuck about 25 minutes ride away from closest deed, this would be a very long walk.
I think a karma cool down on having enemy in local has been a popular suggestion. 15 - 30 minutes Cool down so genuine reasons to karma can still be used.

 

Deeds disbanding on a set number of chain drains(Elevation Only)

  • A common complaint is deeds can be near impossible to disband even after its clear the owner has not been defending it in days.
  • Our current plan is to require 5 drains in a row to disband a deed but we are open to suggestions on what number of drains in a row should trigger an auto disband of that deed.

I completly agree with this and I disagree with what @Sindusksaid. The problem is for deeds we live at getting 5 drains should be hard, if you turn up and we have a bigger force, you should be reset. Deeds like this deserve that protection. But trust me, deeds like Crimea when VD cut off Tunnels, bashed the safe mines, took down the dirt walls and basically flattened it, was never going to not get drained - They had made sure that this deed was sieged and reinforcements wasn't getting in. I could have spent Silver keeping the deed around until we had the people to go push off the next drain window/resecure a simple mine hop - But we were defeated, it shouldn't be where i decide to NOT pay silver for it to disband but rather 5 drains and it automatically happens. If they've done all that work and I can't get the defence over, congrats. But if we were draining their capital simply by having More people than they had defenders, and on one night they over power the attackers by Pulling people out of bed to repel that, then it should reset, this deed deserves to stick around, because the players are actually living at it.

But you agree with that because the careful wording 

Quote

the owner has not been defending it in days.



The update takes a good balance and hits correctly on removing war deeds that are easier to cut off, than deeds that people live at. 

So I agree 5 drains in a row is a good strike and if they can't pull enough to get the drain, then that should reset.


Can only have 4 mine doors placed on any given 11x11 area and must have 3 spaces between each individual mine door.

  • We all know of the current mine door meta, we would like to end that with this new map and put some hard caps on the amount of mine doors in a given area.

I agree that 3 spaces per door is great but I disagree with 4 mine doors per 11 x 11 area. This could make griefing a deed very easy, for example I break your 4 mine doors and place my own 4 doors around the deed with buildings under, you've just stopped mine doors in that area.

I'd simply keep it to the 3 tiles per door as this does a lot to combat deed defence. I'd suggest making mine doors easier to bash AFTER A DRAIN For 1 hour.

Edited by Mclavin

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10 minutes ago, Entendu said:

How about removing player gods? Libila, Fo, Mag, and Vynora only.

 

I'd be up for that, although I'm not sure the 3 WL gods are properly balanced against Libila. What would happen to my existing WL demigod priests? Would they lose faith because they're in HotS?

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What I'd like to see:

I'd like to see removal of player gods from this map.
I'd like to see hell horses removed and rare horse shoes only reducing the Hurt status a horse receives when hit.

I'd like to see tomes disabled until re-worked.
I'd like to see One kingdom with alliance vs alliance as i think this breaks a lot of moulds - I think this is what makes Home server life so great, your ability to kill a neighbour but your better ability to work with them.

@Retrograde @Darklordsis there a reason we can't be one kingdom?

 


 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Mclavin said:

What I'd like to see:

I'd like to see removal of player gods from this map.
I'd like to see hell horses removed and rare horse shoes only reducing the Hurt status a horse receives when hit.

I'd like to see tomes disabled until re-worked.
I'd like to see One kingdom with alliance vs alliance as i think this breaks a lot of moulds - I think this is what makes Home server life so great, your ability to kill a neighbour but your better ability to work with them.

@Retrograde @Darklordsis there a reason we can't be one kingdom?
 

 

+1 Player gods removed.

+1 Hell horses removed.

-1 on rare horse shoes. - It's a great feature to separate the little things.

+1 tomes disabled

-1 One kingdom. - Why not get back to BL vs WL (JK vs HoTS). BL have the ability to kill their neighbor. It's our feature, don't spread it :)

Edited by Entendu

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Mclavin said:

What I'd like to see:

I'd like to see removal of player gods from this map.
I'd like to see hell horses removed and rare horse shoes only reducing the Hurt status a horse receives when hit.

I'd like to see tomes disabled until re-worked.
I'd like to see One kingdom with alliance vs alliance as i think this breaks a lot of moulds - I think this is what makes Home server life so great, your ability to kill a neighbour but your better ability to work with them.

@Retrograde @Darklordsis there a reason we can't be one kingdom?

 


 

 

Yes to removing player gods (from this map).

Yes to removing hell horses from Elevation. Perhaps keep them on home servers but block them from being moved to Elevation. If they're still a problem on home servers, make the existing ones infertile and stop wild ones spawning.

Yes to tomes being disabled until reworked.

Sort of yes to "one kingdom" but I think there would need to be some mechanical way for people to align to either BL or WL - a mixed team of say a Lib Champ and a Fo Champ feels a bit weird. I'd be more inclined to say the same as Entendu - two kingdoms, but civil wars are possible, and a BL and WL faction would declare a ceasefire if they wanted to.

Edited by Ols

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This is looking really solid, and the fact you're taking direct comments from a thread and replying even quicker than anyone could guess is fantastic. The team is really killing this one, so thank you all for your work on this and the quick turnaround, and a thank you to the community people who pushed this.

 

Spoiler

I swear to god if you enable PMK making on Elevation I'm making the Anime PMK a reality

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Entendu said:

-1 on rare horse shoes. - It's a great feature to separate the little things.


thing is we're looking to remove "entry required" items and rare shoes are a big boost - given that they're also easy to lose and on regular horses this might not be too bad as they're easier to kill.

So if HH was removed maybe the shoes not a big deal.

Edited by Mclavin

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25 minutes ago, Mclavin said:

an only have 4 mine doors placed on any given 11x11 area and must have 3 spaces between each individual mine door.

  • We all know of the current mine door meta, we would like to end that with this new map and put some hard caps on the amount of mine doors in a given area.

I agree that 3 spaces per door is great but I disagree with 4 mine doors per 11 x 11 area. This could make griefing a deed very easy, for example I break your 4 mine doors and place my own 4 doors around the deed with buildings under, you've just stopped mine doors in that area.

I'd simply keep it to the 3 tiles per door as this does a lot to combat deed defence. I'd suggest making mine doors easier to bash AFTER A DRAIN For 1 hour.

Maybe make it so you can not place mine doors in enemy influence/within x tiles of an enemy deed to prevent this?

The second might be better to allow traps still.

Maybe have a block for it within x tiles around the token of the deed. x being the longest side of the deed + 25 tiles or so.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Capi said:

Maybe make it so you can not place mine doors in enemy influence/within x tiles of an enemy deed to prevent this?

The second might be better to allow traps still.

Maybe have a block for it within x tiles around the token of the deed. x being the longest side of the deed + 25 tiles or so.


You've accidentally highlighted a major flaw with the idea.

If I want to disintegrate into a deed, I need a cave, which I'd need a door on because enemy defenders could shaker me, i can't do this if the deed has 4 mine doors.
Granted I could start further out but i could place random mine doors outside my dirt walls around my own deed to prevent it.


It also stops attackers mining shots/storing horses if i do that.

I think remove the 11 x 11 idea because it's too griefy for both sides- i think every 3 tiles will stop trenches too, cause doors couldn't be both sides, one side would be weak which is good.

Edited by Mclavin

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What if you can only place them in that radius if the deed was drained? Or could you always disintegrate on epic I forgot.

A drain basically allowing 24hr of disintegrating and mine door placement

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Had to edit my comment because placing a door on a enemy deed converts it to that player anyway :D 

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Posted (edited)

This might be out of scope... Not sure.  I was trying to think of a way to allow the players who've been around forever and done all the work to still be powerful while allowing new players to have fun as well. 

 

New Kingdom role assignable by the kingdom leader.  Warlord of (insert alliance name here)

When players are in range of the kingdom's Warlord their combat statistics (fight skill, body etc) are modified as Playerskill = Playerskill + ((WarlordSkill - PlayerSkill)  * .75).

In small scale skirmishes the veteran players could still "catch people out and be successful raiding" but in large fights like deed sieges as long as the wardlord(s?) are present the new players would be modified upward instead of the old players being modified downward.

 

Not sure how the pvp vets feel about it but it's an idea.  😃

Edited by DrZoidbergMD

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