Why was PvP abandoned?

[Flubb 773]

@Retrograde

I understand the hesitation to act upon something that you aren't 100% behind, and that design processes can bring up problems. But I feel like you're being obtuse acting like there are no ideas for Epic proposed by the community. If I had to guess, I'd say the dev team does not want to give up on implementing a vision of Epic of their own but want to delay until they get around to it. Pure conjecture on my part but what seems to be in the way mostly is their pride.

 

To be more concrete: You are aware of Frank's "complete 180°" thread and the massive traction it has garnered. There is no way you aren't. And it would go perfectly with an Elevation reset to a smaller map. Might need some words about home servers still but it's a pretty solid direction that can be worked towards right now. But I can only guess that it's not what the devs want for Epic, based on the "damage control" you're putting out here.

 

I'm a pure Freedomer but I think we had enough attention for a while; strip Epic "naked", give it a smaller map, let the people run with it for a while and when they get tired of it and cry 24/7 on the forums again, by that time the dev team may have their own vision of Epic more outlined. And if they actually remain content with it, all the better, I'll welcome the dev's creative forces for more immersive game experiences to be directed at Freedom again.

(Hunting server/instances, stronger PvE mobs with camps, maybe found by tracking, it's all out there. I'm under the impression that the Epic cluster is the "pilot cluster" for creative ideas but I think Freedom's potential is being lowballed there. Also pure conjecture/just my 2 cents though.)

 

It's a crappy situation for both sides but it just doesn't seem right to let them hang in there for another year with absolutely nothing.

In the very least, you'd be giving them what they ask for. The dev team may have to give up on their own vision of Epic at this point, though.

 

To the Epic players (at least the ones vocal here) I have to say this: To ask for a reset with the state the dev team is in about Epic right now will always include the risk of another reset down the line, one way or another. I think it's unreasonable to demand the guarantee that it cannot happen. This reset may very well be only a compromise, and the neglect so far has obviously bred resentment that may be a hurdle this compromise has to get over, but I don't see Epic getting anything else "right now" without putting the past aside and taking a small leap of faith on both sides.

[Poshy 58]

It's very strange how they are handling the pvp issue. Sometimes they appear like they want  to drive every single pvp player away from the game so they can shutdown the servers. Yet they've put in effort to overhaul a lot of the pvp systems such as HoTA, towers, priests, and armor. These overhauls amount to nothing though if no one is playing.

[Quicktor 1,346]

i think i would speak for most people interested in a new elevation map, that IF it happens now and later down the road there has to be another new map due to mechanic changes and its reasonable, then no one would be against it

the posts in here are mere proposals, and hell we are trying to take it small here since according to retro they cant spend any time on epic for now (which is unfortunate, but so be it)

but if the staff team thinks there would be the possibility of a new map, even if it would mean that there may be another in 1-2 years, then present it to us and dont jsut say "wait it out for 1-2 more years guys"

 

the publicity, the returning of old players, the amount of players wanting to try out the new map, hell landrush is a real thing, this could actually be something, please dont hesitate

[Drastox 332]

Id most likely resub for 12 months if some of the above ideas ever came true. 

[Angelklaine 4,266]

7 hours ago, Retrograde said:

 

 

no land control planned at this moment. It's simply that work hasn't started, and we may hit the situation where it wont work with the existing map. 

 

We won't be looking at resetting the map until this work is underway, and it's not underway at the moment, and no concrete ideas 

This mentality baffles me. There are only two reasons why you would make such a statement: 1 you dont care about pvp as developers and are hoping for a quiet death or 2 you just are too lazy to bother doing anything at all and you are hoping for it to just go away. 

 

Your players are loudly asking for a map reset. Look at this thread! Not even a single pvper here is against a map reset. Everyone is on board with this. You ygot a dead cluster, a pile of players asking for a new map, and an entire pvp community telling you how to fix this issue with little effort.

 

1) Release a new Elevation map

2) Turn off player Gods on Epic

3) Go play with new colored buckets.

 

Hell, the pvp community will give you the damn map! Make a contest, have people.submit maps to you, and select one! Hell even if your reward was a sleep powder, your inbox would explode with the amount of submissions you'll get. Drop a map, flip a switch, and forget about the thing for a year. People will come back and bash each other's brains out for a while guaranteed.

 

You could get this done in an afternoon. You just said work on it has not even started! You are holding the whole pvp community hostage because someone had a wild idea while scratching their bellybutton and watching tv that you don't even know you're going to implement!

 

What's wrong with you people!?

 

Spoiler

This thread will be automatically locked in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...

 

[zentil 35]

37 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

Hell, the pvp community will give you the damn map! Make a contest, have people.submit maps to you, and select one! Hell even if your reward was a sleep powder, your inbox would explode with the amount of submissions you'll get. Drop a map, flip a switch, and forget about the thing for a year. People will come back and bash each other's brains out for a while guaranteed.

 

 Hell have a contest, and have the top 1-3 setup so people can test on some random Wu server.

 Heck just host the file on google drive for the maps. Then people can point out issues and you don't need to even do anything because the makers of those maps can fix issues and resubmit it to the pool of testing.

People can look at a map who are experienced and know if the map is crap or not to get it into the 1-3 for testing.

 

Also don't need to care about the mining map cause you can respawn that if you decide to make it the server map.

[Wonka 438]

3 hours ago, Quicktor said:

i think i would speak for most people interested in a new elevation map, that IF it happens now and later down the road there has to be another new map due to mechanic changes and its reasonable, then no one would be against it

the posts in here are mere proposals, and hell we are trying to take it small here since according to retro they cant spend any time on epic for now (which is unfortunate, but so be it)

but if the staff team thinks there would be the possibility of a new map, even if it would mean that there may be another in 1-2 years, then present it to us and dont jsut say "wait it out for 1-2 more years guys"

 

the publicity, the returning of old players, the amount of players wanting to try out the new map, hell landrush is a real thing, this could actually be something, please dont hesitate

 

No matter what happens, there will be complaining, and it will be loud.  New map, no new map, reset, no reset, there will be salt and tears in abundance.  Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a vibrant epic again, like it was way back when, but we're assuming Ausimus even wants to make a new map, or a dev actually wants to get involved.  If I was a dev, I'm not sure I'd touch pvp at this stage, as it seems like an endless source of pain and frustration.

 

In terms of constructive suggestion, if you do add a new map, you could add it as a new server in the epic cluster (N of ele, maybe?).  It's not ideal, but at least that way the don't-reset-me-dude folks get to keep going, and the new-server-noaw folks have somewhere to play.  No idea how easy new maps are, but that seems like the least-effort route, at least.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Wonka

[Eobersig 1,004]

3 hours ago, Sindusk said:

There hasn't been a new map for Wurm Online since 2015, when Elevation was reset. It's been over 4 years since there's been new land. Anyone who only heard of Wurm through Wurm Unlimited (for example, me) has never had the opportunity to experience a new map for the game. That gold rush sensation of exploring new land and claiming it as your own.

 

Players on PvP want a new map. Players from Wurm Unlimited might be interested in trying Wurm Online with a new map. Who knows, maybe it's just the bombshell you want for the upcoming dev stream.

 

In the history of Wurm new land (i.e. a new server) has always brought people back into the game. That's no surprise as well, cause two core groups of people playing Wurm are

- the builders making new deeds, new roads, new bridges, essentially bringing Wurm civilisation to wild lands and

- the survival players that love to settle in the wild and try to survive without roads, highways, old deeds and guard towers everywhere.

 

Of course the older a server gets, the less interesting Wurm becomes to these two core groups: the builders have built all they could build and the survival players don't struggle to survive any more because the wildness is tamed. Remaining are the other two core groups of Wurm players: the crafters/skillers and the merchants. And of course there's the problem: many people that have left the game would return to new lands while many people that have stayed in the game do not want new lands. Whatever the team does: some people won't like it.

 

Would a new server boost PvE player numbers? My opinion is that yes, it would. Would a new server help to increase the PvP numbers? Personally I doubt it, esp. not when you talk about competitive PvP. In the history of Epic the home servers have always seen more players than Elevation has, that type of "PvP-light" on home servers has always been more popular than the competitive PvP found on Elevation. Thus when you really want to boost the numbers of PvP-players in Wurm you need to boost PvP-light. Of course some competitive PvP-players won't even call that PvP.

 

Heck, when I played on Serenity I always thought the easiest way to "help" Epic would be to make new home server maps and to totally remove Elevation and all this HotA stuff from the game.

[Thorinoakshield 603]

All this  talk about a new map, but what seems to be forgotten is that most of the PvP community actually lives safely at a PvE server and only gathers for "PvP" for a raid.

The reason: they're shitting their armour for loosing all the fancy stuff they collected over the years when they're living on Chaos and their deeds getting raided while they're not there.

 

The result?

They talk at discord or teamspeak to gather 'round at 8PM May, 31st, sail to Chaos to raid a deed of an enemy kingdom at 9.30PM and sail back at 10.15 PM to their PvE deeds to make sure all they captured would be safe.

That's similar to plaingy Battlefield or CoD, remaining at the spawn because spawnkilling is forbidden and only come out when you know you're going to win because the other team is down to one person. It's not PvP, I won't even call it semi-PvP. It's PvE with the occasional hunt.

 

Then there's the global server issue, meaning  that some players aren't on-line when other are, resulting in deeds being raided when their owners aren't there. And don't tell me, that doesn't happen, cos it does. No-one passes an opportunity like that.

I'm pretty sure there are PMK's who're contacting their "enemies" to negotiate a time and place of a battle.

I'm also pretty sure there are players who don't care about that and just gather a team to raid a deed while the owner is off life. Eventually resulting in that particular owner either quitting the game or moving to a PvE server to make sure his / her stuff is safe. Resulting in what I said before, "PvP" players moving to PvE servers to keep all their shiney stuff safe.

Also meaning that doing a raid is almost a waste of time, because all you can loot are some resources and some "normal" weapons / armor. Not really something to get exited about.

 

So, one reason PvP is dead?

Because the PvP community committed suicide by deciding to do some things that made PvP boring, resulting in players leaving.

 

Thorin

[FranktheTank 1,901]

3 hours ago, Eobersig said:

 

In the history of Wurm new land (i.e. a new server) has always brought people back into the game. That's no surprise as well, cause two core groups of people playing Wurm are

- the builders making new deeds, new roads, new bridges, essentially bringing Wurm civilisation to wild lands and

- the survival players that love to settle in the wild and try to survive without roads, highways, old deeds and guard towers everywhere.

 

Of course the older a server gets, the less interesting Wurm becomes to these two core groups: the builders have built all they could build and the survival players don't struggle to survive any more because the wildness is tamed. Remaining are the other two core groups of Wurm players: the crafters/skillers and the merchants. And of course there's the problem: many people that have left the game would return to new lands while many people that have stayed in the game do not want new lands. Whatever the team does: some people won't like it.

 

Would a new server boost PvE player numbers? My opinion is that yes, it would. Would a new server help to increase the PvP numbers? Personally I doubt it, esp. not when you talk about competitive PvP. In the history of Epic the home servers have always seen more players than Elevation has, that type of "PvP-light" on home servers has always been more popular than the competitive PvP found on Elevation. Thus when you really want to boost the numbers of PvP-players in Wurm you need to boost PvP-light. Of course some competitive PvP-players won't even call that PvP.

 

Heck, when I played on Serenity I always thought the easiest way to "help" Epic would be to make new home server maps and to totally remove Elevation and all this HotA stuff from the game.

 

This is pretty accurate actually, wurm has always and will always benefit from new lands as the entire point of the game is to establish claim and build, that goes for pve and pvp alike. 

 

There is no greater feeling then pulling up your boot straps, heading out and building an outpost, that transforms to a village, that transforms into a city. 

 

Exploration is also great, not knowing much about the map and making choices on where to strategically move and live have always been the fun parts of wurm. 

[FranktheTank 1,901]

1 hour ago, Thorinoakshield said:

All this  talk about a new map, but what seems to be forgotten is that most of the PvP community actually lives safely at a PvE server and only gathers for "PvP" for a raid.

The reason: they're shitting their armour for loosing all the fancy stuff they collected over the years when they're living on Chaos and their deeds getting raided while they're not there.

 

The result?

They talk at discord or teamspeak to gather 'round at 8PM May, 31st, sail to Chaos to raid a deed of an enemy kingdom at 9.30PM and sail back at 10.15 PM to their PvE deeds to make sure all they captured would be safe.

That's similar to plaingy Battlefield or CoD, remaining at the spawn because spawnkilling is forbidden and only come out when you know you're going to win because the other team is down to one person. It's not PvP, I won't even call it semi-PvP. It's PvE with the occasional hunt.

 

Then there's the global server issue, meaning  that some players aren't on-line when other are, resulting in deeds being raided when their owners aren't there. And don't tell me, that doesn't happen, cos it does. No-one passes an opportunity like that.

I'm pretty sure there are PMK's who're contacting their "enemies" to negotiate a time and place of a battle.

I'm also pretty sure there are players who don't care about that and just gather a team to raid a deed while the owner is off life. Eventually resulting in that particular owner either quitting the game or moving to a PvE server to make sure his / her stuff is safe. Resulting in what I said before, "PvP" players moving to PvE servers to keep all their shiney stuff safe.

Also meaning that doing a raid is almost a waste of time, because all you can loot are some resources and some "normal" weapons / armor. Not really something to get exited about.

 

So, one reason PvP is dead?

Because the PvP community committed suicide by deciding to do some things that made PvP boring, resulting in players leaving.

 

Thorin

 

I will be sure to tell the Epic cluster players to bring their collectibles across to epic from their hiding spots on freedom.

 

Perfect example of someone not knowing what they are talking about 10/10

Edited May 22, 2019 by FranktheTank

[Ekcin 2,401]

9 minutes ago, FranktheTank said:

Perfect example of someone not knowing what they are talking about 10/10

 

When we are just insulting one another ..

 

Do you know that back in the times of usenet full quoters were considered clueless noobs or morons? That it is helpful to pick just the part one considers relevant to comment on and rely on the audience to have read ore being able to go back to the quoted post and read it themselves? Keeps the threads ways more readable.

 

just my 2 irons

Edited May 22, 2019 by Ekcin

[zukapit 77]

@Retrograde

 

I have an idea about a quick fix for pvp.

 

Firstly I ask myself what did I hate as a new character on Chaos. Well it wasnt that I was strong or missed a lot, but actually that I died way to fast in battle (like one or two hits max).

Why not have PoI with a 50% dmg reduction on everyone who joins pvp and people who have dmg reduction already remove it. so now we only working with body stats and everyones 50% dmg reduction.

Think of it like resilience in WoW, which is mandatory.

 

In this way anyone who wants to pvp wont just feel so useless anymore and maybe gets a few hits in and the disparity between old accounts and new accounts will only be body stats which with how the curve runs now isnt so bad.

[MrGARY 12,421]

9 hours ago, Poshy said:

Yet they've put in effort to overhaul a lot of the pvp systems such as HoTA, towers, priests, and armor.

 

It makes more sense when you realize the vast majority of what you said is because of people that aren't staff anymore

 

6 hours ago, Wonka said:

In terms of constructive suggestion, if you do add a new map, you could add it as a new server in the epic cluster (N of ele, maybe?).  It's not ideal, but at least that way the don't-reset-me-dude folks get to keep going, and the new-server-noaw folks have somewhere to play. 

 

Is there anyone that plays elevation that is against a server reset?  The only anti-reset I can recall seeing are home server players against resetting/removing home servers, or against skill resets. 

[Haseroth 70]

if the devs gave us a temporary challenge map for until epic gets fixed i would reprem just to play on the challenge map lol

[Haseroth 70]

retro is gone... rip..... 

[Oscarius 122]

Reset me plz ?

[Erin 105]

I would love to see a map reset on epic, like a smaller map & I would also like to see the home servers being fixed like remove the fight skill being reduced  for enemies on home servers & fix the buggy logout timers for enemies on home servers & also add the final drain back into the game deeds are to over powered 

Edited May 22, 2019 by Erin

[Haseroth 70]

guys dont worry 2 click map reset is gonna come... in 6 months.... 

[Bloodscythe 2,225]

15 hours ago, SmeJack said:

I'm sorry but a hypothetical outcome for something that has never been seen to be needed before is not really going help placate anyone and only really shows the empty words to be stronger than ever.

^This, ffs HAAAAAAALP  Retro that was the worst answer you could possible give, a no answer on cause we may hypothetically do something that we've not started yet that may require sumfin later.   That's double speak politico eeeees RREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!      If you've not started anything and have no plans for anything in the immediate future how bad can it be to pacify with a reload of existing old map ie old ele, it's not even work..it's a file you have vs doing nothing on the speculation of change you've not even started yet...Help me Understand.

[Angelklaine 4,266]

58 minutes ago, Bloodscythe said:

^This, ffs HAAAAAAALP  Retro that was the worst answer you could possible give, a no answer on cause we may hypothetically do something that we've not started yet that may require sumfin later.   That's double speak politico eeeees RREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!      If you've not started anything and have no plans for anything in the immediate future how bad can it be to pacify with a reload of existing old map ie old ele, it's not even work..it's a file you have vs doing nothing on the speculation of change you've not even started yet...Help me Understand.

Yes

[FranktheTank 1,901]

A complete reset in my honest opinion would be a great way to get everyone on board. 

 

New Lands, new accounts, no items. 

 

You can spawn in and enjoy the game at the base level again, with a higher skill gain than freedom, as is the norm. Starting over on a new map is really fun!

[Angelklaine 4,266]

1 minute ago, FranktheTank said:

A complete reset in my honest opinion would be a great way to get everyone on board. 

 

New Lands, new accounts, no items. 

 

You can spawn in and enjoy the game at the base level again, with a higher skill gain than freedom, as is the norm. Starting over on a new map is really fun!

I would love this. Both Arakiel and I have toyed with the idea of starting fresh somewhere (Epic or Chaos) to try and do the hobo life and hope we can survive.

 

But this would require a new fresh server, which I am sure will get shot down instantly by the devs. You can't do this on epic without touching the home servers, and I am sure there is more than a handful of people on the home servers that would object to their deeds and accounts being reset.

[FranktheTank 1,901]

2 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

I would love this. Both Arakiel and I have toyed with the idea of starting fresh somewhere (Epic or Chaos) to try and do the hobo life and hope we can survive.

 

But this would require a new fresh server, which I am sure will get shot down instantly by the devs. You can't do this on epic without touching the home servers, and I am sure there is more than a handful of people on the home servers that would object to their deeds and accounts being reset.

Certainly people cannot expect to sit on the home servers on a cluster that was meant to have resets (and has had on Affliction and Elevation) as per the original mandate by Rolf.

[Angelklaine 4,266]

Just now, FranktheTank said:

Certainly people cannot expect to sit on the home servers on a cluster that was meant to have resets (and has had on Affliction and Elevation) as per the original mandate by Rolf.

Yes, you are right.

 

But do you think the devs will disregard the will of these people? Or use it as an excuse to do nothing? 

 

Which is it?