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One more thing to consider:

 

Why would Devs invest time to cater for 6 people?

Obviously it's more than 6 people but the number, compared to the numbers on PvE servers, doesn't really justify a huge time investment. This leads to the "there are only 6 players BECAUSE of no investment" which in turn leads back to "can't justify the investment" and it's another one of those vicious circles. 

 

People are very actively discussing the state of Epic and PvP in general while sitting on PvE servers because there is no information about Epic's future but maybe there isn't any information coming because bulk of customers have no interest or already lost it and moved to PvE? 

What if the decisions are made based on graphs? What if someone looks at them and thinks "new map, re-balancing, months of testing to cater for "6" people? Get a grip on reality guys". 

 

I have zero to do with PvP so i speak as an expert ?

To be perfectly honest, if i was running this joint, i would focus on the crowd that brings in the numbers and monies before trying to fix problems of the minority who scream the loudest (purely because of business, not because i have anything against Epic or players who enjoy it).

 

In a perfect world we would have thousands of players online (excluding alts) and enough revenue to support a dedicated team of developers who would have their own areas of work. "if you play on Epic on your player toon, you won't be involved in any development for it" and the other way around comes to mind. Remove the bias accusations to make the devs more comfortable with pushing out updates and throwing in ideas without having the "they will think it's because my player toon is a member of X kingdom" in the back of their head.

 

If i was an Epic player before, by now i would have followed the majority and migrated to Freedom, just like many others did. Granted, it's not nice leaving years of work behind but i could rebuild and recover most of the gear within few months instead of waiting another 6 months to hear "hold on, in 2020 we might get some time to discuss this issue".

 

Bottom line is:

 

It's a very important subject for a few dozen players and while no professional would ever say "we care very little about that problem", actions say that perfectly clear. Dozens is not enough to turn that wheel. 

 

It would be interesting to hear how many former Epic players who moved to Freedom would move back after a significant amount of time invested on the other side. No need to respond, obviously only people who would actually consider returning to Epic would reply to this question but it would be something interesting to see in actual numbers.

 

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You might see a dozen players asking for that @Locath .. but it's not the same dozen that were doing it yesterday, or 2 months ago or 6 months ago..

And every time another dozen is ignored the overall population drops..

 

There are probably more players that don't even actively play anymore that are writing in these sections.. they give valuable feedback to the devs about what bothers them and what needs to change for them to return. I don't see PVE managing to at least retain the numbers.. I'm not even going to ask them to bring in fresh blood.. And a lot of those PVE numbers are made of PVP players that are expecting something to change to make it enjoyable for them.. and one by one they fade away to other games and never come back.

 

I've been playing this game for over 3 years before trying PVP.. and for me it was an eye opener when i did it.. I realized that this game was really designed with PVP at it's core, and everything you do in PVP has meaning and actually makes the game exciting. Anyone that has been through that will not go back to PVE for anything long term.. they might do it waiting for something to change, and then leave the game for good when they see that nobody cares about them.

 

Is this where the game is at ? Let's just keep around the 300-400 characters that still log in every day with pretty colors and horses, as long as we can, before we go below the number that sustains the overall costs and then just flip the switch ?

If that's the plan then I need to know.. because it's very dishonest otherwise to anyone that keeps playing this game hoping it will still be here next year, or 5 years from now.

Edited by faty
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19 minutes ago, Locath said:

Obviously it's more than 6 people but the number, compared to the numbers on PvE servers, doesn't really justify a huge time investment. This leads to the "there are only 6 players BECAUSE of no investment" which in turn leads back to "can't justify the investment" and it's another one of those vicious circles. 

Then of course you shouldn't really bring this up as an argument really - there used to be a full cluster for pvp which died and people demand any information, not miracously having it fixed within a month.

 

20 minutes ago, Locath said:

People are very actively discussing the state of Epic and PvP in general while sitting on PvE servers

Really? Pretty much everyone I know that was concerned with epic and PVP in general was doing so while working their asses off on Chaos to get some fun out of this game before they go insane.

 

22 minutes ago, Locath said:

 

To be perfectly honest, if i was running this joint, i would focus on the crowd that brings in the numbers and monies before trying to fix problems of the minority who scream the loudest (purely because of business, not because i have anything against Epic or players who enjoy it).

Then you could get hired by Ubisoft or another publisher making half assed DLC moneygrabs. The mob that screams the most is the bigger one and it's the PVE one. This is why the focus is on providing more content and keeping them involved + spending more silver coins on the deeds. Just because if the mechanics were  there, PVP would run itself and would generate cash for the game makers anyway. And this was the mob that didn't even want epic players among them, just because they were afraid that it would ruin their precious (already dying anyway) economy. Also consider this: next time you sell 100k dirt to random char that has 1 month of playtime, remember that it might be a pvp player just using an alt so that noone notices that he is bringing it to build yet another money sink of a deed on chaos, thus keeping the freedom economy alive. This cluster cannot really function without it having a PVP outlet that will keep buying stuff.

 

25 minutes ago, Locath said:

Granted, it's not nice leaving years of work behind but i could rebuild and recover most of the gear within few months instead of waiting another 6 months to hear "hold on, in 2020 we might get some time to discuss this issue".

You mean buy you gear? I don't see how people who invested years upon years into epic can get knarrs full of rare gear back on freedom just like that.

 

 

And for me?

Even though I lost most of my gear on Epic due to decay already as I was forced to move, I would reprem and get back there if the cluster was to be alive again. Not with deed chess, not alive for half a year. Like really getting back on track and being this beautiful mess it used to be.

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15 hours ago, whereami said:

Why did you abandon Wurm PvP? Which straw broke your horse's back?

List anything and everything. I want to know why it was that people left, so that we can determine if it was a number of reasons or maybe only a handful.

The priest update; and shifting metas did not fix or help pvp. It's like playing a new game and you find out how bad it is but you're past the refund window on steam. Only option is to uninstall and not play it.

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Just now, Niki said:

The priest update; and shifting metas did not fix or help pvp. It's like playing a new game and you find out how bad it is but you're past the refund window on steam. Only option is to uninstall and not play it.

Priest rework maybe wasnt best, but made Chaos alive for a little bit of time

Only you and few guys were crying about this, guess why ;)

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Is there some place where pvpers have kept their manners and explained what is wrong with certain mechanics and what they do/were expecting instead, suggested fixes for balance, etc?

It's easier to work with a list of ideas .. not a salty pile of blames that most threads turn into, sorting through that can kill your will to work on that.

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1 minute ago, Votip said:

Priest rework maybe wasnt best, but made Chaos alive for a little bit of time

Only you and few guys were crying about this, guess why ;)

I saw the end times also, I'm generally right am I not? ?

 

Also I've given up basically as I play very little even on PvE now, this thread is full of honeyed words and empty promises, I'll vote with my feet. Classic WoW summer 2019 will save us.

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Never have, never will wow.. *cough* that game.?

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29 minutes ago, Gildi said:

Then of course you shouldn't really bring this up as an argument really - there used to be a full cluster for pvp which died and people demand any information, not miracously having it fixed within a month.

Yes, i should, If people played there, it might get more attention.

 

29 minutes ago, Gildi said:

Really? Pretty much everyone I know that was concerned with epic and PVP in general was doing so while working their asses off on Chaos to get some fun out of this game before they go insane.

Just today i had a chat on Discord with a few people who said that there is a pat situation which makes PvP lose a lot of it's appeal. 2 of the biggest kingdoms are in a situation where they are "safe" on theirs deeds and neither one has a chance to win. People went back to PvE for that reason.

 

32 minutes ago, Gildi said:

Then you could get hired by Ubisoft or another publisher making half assed DLC moneygrabs.

CodeClub is not running the game to let me or you have some fun. It's a business like any other. You invest where you see the return of investment happening. Devs time is a huge investment which is recognized by every single user, be it appreciated or not, it makes financial sense to invest where more customers benefit. In saying that, i'm not claiming that some areas need more attention than others, it's something all of us need to consider. It's not only about our "fun", it is a business for someone.

 

34 minutes ago, Gildi said:

You mean buy you gear? I don't see how people who invested years upon years into epic can get knarrs full of rare gear back on freedom just like that.

I think you misunderstood me. I said it's not nice leaving years of work behind but it's not the end of the world. Many people would be able to get back on their feet within days with the skill transfer, months for low-end accounts. I never said they will be able to have an exact copy of their stuff over on the other side, i thought that was implied. Getting decent gear on PvE is cheap and easy, on Chaos is free a lot of the time because of kingdom support (or so i am told).

 

38 minutes ago, Gildi said:

Also consider this: next time you sell 100k dirt to random char that has 1 month of playtime, remember that it might be a pvp player just using an alt so that noone notices that he is bringing it to build yet another money sink of a deed on chaos, thus keeping the freedom economy alive.

 Only things i ever sold in Wurm are sleep powders (which i traded for clay, lots of clay) and one rare axe. This is in 8 years of playing and while holding multiple deeds, including the current biggest one in Wurm (Kyara can suck it) to the best of my knowledge so yeah, warehouses full of 100s of thousands of bricks, dirt, mortar, not one of which i have made so i'm not sure how that's relevant.

 

Please read this part carefully:

 

I am not saying that Epic should or should not get attention, i honestly couldn't care less. I just shared a thought to consider - time and resource investment vs RoI. As things stand, with the extremely low population, Return of Investment doesn't seem likely and this might be one of the driving factors behind the lack of updates or clear communication. I'm not in the developers heads and i can't read their minds, i hope that is clear. I'm just saying that this might be one of the reasons for the current situation. Without judging, without attacking players or staff or you personally, it's just another angle to look at things.

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47 minutes ago, Locath said:

Yes, i should, If people played there, it might get more attention.

 

Yes lets play something that is dead and give money to the people who have left it for dead.

 

Great idea there.

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58 minutes ago, zentil said:

Yes lets play something that is dead and give money to the people who have left it for dead.

 

Great idea there.

if
/ɪf/
conjunction
 
  1. 1.
    (introducing a conditional clause) on the condition or supposition that; in the event that.

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5 hours ago, Lolabelle said:

The Wurm Dev team is quite small and I don't know if anyone realizes how hard these guys work.  I for one am very happy that they keep us informed and try to handle issues as soon as possible.  

Please keep this in mind. 

 

No offense to Ausimus or Darklords especially since I don't know what it's like since I left the team, but the hard working devs that truly devoted their time into developing wurm (people like Tich and Sindusk) are gone.  In all of our experiences, they are not keeping us informed otherwise there would not be the plethora of epic/pvp related threads popping up lately.  In my experience doing QA as a GM which are also pretty apparent to people following patch notes, pve issues get handled "asap" until recently for example they said they had a fix for the moving breaking actions when not really moving bug but didn't even push it to live for weeks despite restarting even just for easter eggs.  Pvp issues are harder to get attention as fast as pve ones, and epic even worse.  For one quick example off the top of my head, the "new" troll combat which is pretty much just adding more boring attacks to it to make them way harder accidentally went live on pve, and that was fixed immediately.  However that new troll combat was on epic for more than a year before that for "testing" and still left for a long time after despite complaints.  Maybe all they were testing was our patience, who knows.

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5 hours ago, Locath said:

One more thing to consider:

 

Why would Devs invest time to cater for 6 people?

 

Consider this, Locath.  At the rate the game is losing players.... someday you will be one of the 6 players playing on Freedom.  

 

 

While the Karma port change (which I still stand behind btw) was extremely poorly implemented by the Devs, to me it serves as a shining example of poor judgement from the powers that be.  There should have at least been some kind of PvP ban, advanced warning or some kind of time frame that EMR could have made adjustments to their infrastructure to accommodate the change.  EMR did get royally screwed by the forum incident, and as a neutral party that had nothing to do with it, it saddened me once I learned the many toxic actions that were taken against your kingdom in that incident.... but you're a fool for blaming Shrimpiie for any of it.

 

Your 150 member (yeah right) freedom community is as irrelevant (to PvP) as anyone else living on Freedom dude.  With all the PMK's that have came and gone since EMR disbanded (DD, LoA, JK, VD, Ebo, etc) you have chosen not to be a part of the PvP community for over 2 years.   I firmly believe that you will never set foot on Chaos again, even as your own PMK, because you have failed to demonstrate the ability to work with others.  As a result, your opinion as to what is good for PvP is taken with a grain of salt.

 

Seriously....show me 150 people wanting to start a PMK in this day and age and I will happily put my money where my mouth is and donate 2 gold and a declaration of Independence to get you started.

Edited by Pandalet
Moderation edit

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56 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

you're a fool for blaming Shrimpiie for any of it.

 Could you please enlighten me as to how that is even remotely true?

I have logs buddy. Logs he provided himself. They've been posted a number of times actually, so really you should know that you're wrong here.

Here, check em out; https://pastebin.com/zm1SEuG1

 

56 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

you have chosen not to be a part of the PvP community for over 2 years

 

The rest of EMR are their own people, and yes we as a kingdom have not taken part in PvP for some time. But when it comes to me personally again I don't think you know what you're talking about, again, as I've been on Chaos as recently as 2 or 3 days ago.

There are a number of us that still keep tabs on things, and provide strategy and oversight, without playing a large part in the ever-lackluster field "battles" that occur.

 

As for never setting foot on Chaos again...  Dude, why do you think we all ###### so hard on the forums? Most of us have given up cause literally nothing is happening. Not even an inch of budge from these nerds. If we got some changes in you'd better bet your ass you'd see us again in some form or another. If we had no plans of returning none of us would care.

 

I had to add this in here too cause it's pretty comical;

Quote

you have failed to demonstrate the ability to work with others.  As a result, your opinion as to what is good for PvP is taken with a grain of salt.

 

While I believe that every opinion should be taken as such, as it is merely an opinion, your initial accusation is quite funny to me.

>Kingdom of 100+ people

>Cant work as a team

Gave me a pretty good laugh. EMR's strongest asset when on the Chaos map was our numbers, and we largely dominated because of this.

I genuinely don't want to devolve this into the type of banter that one would see coming from Mclovin, but you can't seriously think we have one of the strongest and most tightknit groups in the game but can't work together... It's an absurd accusation, without any real evidence to support it.

Edited by whereami

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6 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

Consider this, Locath.  At the rate the game is losing players.... someday you will be one of the 6 players playing on Freedom.  

I am considering it, i don't have a fix for this situation though. I never said that i know how to cure the situation or how to bring more players in. I'm just saying that it's a sort of a black hole situation. Players are leaving (Epic in this scenario) because of lack of attention to it and the lack of attention might partially come from the low numbers. I don't know where that began or how to fix the issue (other than spending time and energy on updating the cluster to playable state but there is no guarantee that this would bring more players in). My posts were not suggestions or ideas, just an analysis of facts.

 

 

<Idea>

One thing that i could suggest to bring players in to Wurm is the idea which was bashed a few times in chat already, i think i posted it in forums before as well.

Give us a working referral system. Same rewards we have currently, nothing changes there but if i refer someone, i would like to have a chance to get the referral reward from them if they prem up via web shop at least.

 

This is in a browser incremental game (PBBG genre, old one, very niche, no longer being updated)

x6AtmJq.png

 

This is not to brag but to prove a point. Reflinks work. If you target the right audience and use the right medium, you can bring players in to try a game they never heard of before. About 10% of those i referred who created accounts have spent money in game. About 2-3% still play after 5 years.

 

The idea: You get your referral link on Wurm website or by using a command in game and post it in a place where people are actively looking for certain type of games to try out. If the new person follows your referral link and creates an account, they become your referral and if they decide to prem up in Wurm, you get the normal referral reward you can currently buy from others for 6s or something.

 

In GL people were screaming that this would "rob" the new player of the "free" 6s they could recover from their first premium price...

This is one way to look at it, my opinion is that currently, due to lack of such system, there are no people to be "robbed" of the hypothetical 6s. Plus, once the new person is addicted to Wurm like all of us, they will likely create alts and can decide if they want to use their own reflink so that their main can get the reward or if they want to sell it on the market prior to creating the new account and premming it up. Past the original account, it's only the sequence of events that changes if the player wants to sell their ref.

</Idea>

 

Only the part in the Idea tag is my input on how to help to fix the root cause of all those posts which is population dying off. All the rest (including previous posts) is an attempt at analysis of the situation.

 

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It's not just the lack of attention, even more concerning is the lack of a shared vision. A shared vision is a much, much more powerful thing and with time and successful execution it builds upon itself.

 

As an example:

 

"Our vision for Wurm is to build up population by building awareness of the game, improving retention via the improved tutorial and improving game play including better combat and more engaging activities within the game.

 

In order to make this vision work we need community engagement, the true kind where we brainstorm ideas together and come up with things that work for both PVE and PVP players as much as possible. Both communities are important to the games future success and both are in need of attention. While our main focus will initially be on PVE we have heard the strong voices of the community ask for at least something for PVP. We will be resetting the elevation map to a 1024 x 1024 map similar to Old Elevation. While this is certainly not everything we want to do with PVP it's a start in the direction that has been asked for.

 

It will take time to realize this vision and frankly things will change along the way as challenges are faced. We will commit to giving you quarterly updates on where we think things are headed as the vision unfolds.

 

Of course this kind of vision requires help, specifically your help. We are seeking:

 

- Volunteer developers - Have you tinkered with mods in Wurm Unlimited? Come join our team, worse case help us reduce technical debt by fixing bugs, best case, design a new engaging mechanic that becomes part of the game

 

- Volunteer ambassadors - Help get the word out about Wurm. Youtube stream, blogs, gameplay guides, anything and everything that can help people learn about this game

 

- Volunteer greeters - Help new players at the tutorial site. Answer questions, explain the game, help them explore, tell them more awaits

 

Right now we don't have the ability to thank you as fully as we wish we could, however we can offer you some recognition for your efforts - special "Volunteer Developer/Ambassador/Greeter" title visible in game, some sleep powders and a willingness to listen to your suggestions. Of course actions speak louder then words so let's get started today"

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7 hours ago, faty said:

PS: turning a silver mirror that already exists in game into a gold mirror and putting it on the traders should not be a hard thing to do and it's not, it was just decided that it will be released along with the web shop (whatever that is).

If we're thinking of it this simply, you're going to see ###### break. If there's one thing I hate about the forum, it's the armchair Java experts. We've seen so many times, over and over, things breaking in weird ways, in ways that shouldn't because of how weird this old spaghetti code is. I don't doubt it takes a little more work to make a mirror, and have it change gender, have it be allowed to be used multiple times and make sure everything changes over properly. That means sorcery titles and other things, and a bunch of other stuff. Sure, we know it's done, we know it's functional, but nobody here has any idea what kind of work or challenges it presents.

 

tl;dr stop assuming things are easy for the devs because it's simple on paper

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29 minutes ago, Madnath said:

tl;dr stop assuming things are easy for the devs because it's simple on paper

The golden mirror was the example that you gave as complex and think it was something that people were mad about not having. It's not the fishing system, it's not a new skill.. it's not bridges or combat overhaul, it's just a simple item that already exists in game in another form that's why i was calling it simple to implement. As with everything there are issues and things that need tweaking of course, i didn't even knew about the gender change as a feature for it, not like gender changes were not in the game at some point if i remember right, but anyway, that was a really poor example to show the complexity involved in developing and I was mirrorly pointing that out.

 

Edited by faty

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20 hours ago, whereami said:

 

 

Why did you abandon Wurm PvP?

I go with the Kingdom.

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Once more, this thread corroborates the stereotype that pvpers are nasty ranters and whiners blaming everybody, devs and GM in particular, for everything, and never ever themselves. While this stereotype, like any other, is certainly wrong or at least exaggerated, there must be a reason for.

 

I have seen, heard, and read the complaints that PvP is dead, the devs and GMs do not care for, that everything has been nice and bright once ago in a distant past, not only in this game, but in more than 5 or 6 over the years, and honestly, that were practically all I have played, and heard about the same in a dozen more I haven't, or only superficially. Here too, must be a reason for, other that all or most pvpers are bad.

 

In fact, a problem exists: the PvP playerhood in general is a quite spoiled, demanding, and highly mobile part of the gaming community. There are lots of well staffed, well funded, and well manned PvP games out in the scene, and new ones coming out fast, fed by ads, crowdfunding, and venture capital. The chance of a general purpose sandbox game to compete here is slim. And PvP environments are hard to maintain as they are a more moving target than PvE, bugs and vulnerabilities more gracelessly exploited, every possibility driven to the extreme. In most games, experienced PvP players have the most intricate knowledge of game mechanics, in particular, but not limited to the combat system, and that knowledge is not always used in beneficial ways.  Also the amount of tickets and inter player conflicts is orders of magnitude higher in PvP.

 

Moreover, PvP has intrinsic self defeating properties in every maturing game. The times when all new players are flocking in, epic battles unfolding, very fast degenerates into the emergence of steep hierarchies limiting chances for newcomers. The lines along which those hierarchies are forming are available/spent playtime per RL time, game experience, gear, skill, and last not least money. Such hierarchies make it hard to impossible to new and late comers to catch up and get a satisfying place in the community. Also, players with RL obligations are prone to fall back in the competition and drop out, the playerhood reduced to a hardcore of dedicated players and those with sufficient resources in terms of free time, skill, gear, and money. This part is of course the backbone of every playerhood, but in PvP it often remains as a skeleton repelling the growth of new flesh.

 

Another self defeating scenario unfolds when factions, groups, clans etc. win a lasting upper hand, making their opponents leave in rage or frustration. I have witnessed such processes of self destruction more than once. Whether it applies or applied to Wurm I do not know.

 

Therefore, I miss any self critical word of the pvpers not only in this thread. Think about.

 

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

demanding

demanding beign just treated as pve and not forgetting about pvp is something bad?

Imagine siuation when Chaos and Epic gets 31209312 updates and pve nothing. you would have same situation - pve players complaining that no one focus on them

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Dunno, but for my own part, all these complaints can be summed up with a funny metaphor.

 

Pvp, and I do include Epic and Chaos in this mix is like a bad relationship that didn't end because of cheating, violence and abuse.  It's just a lot of small things + neglect that added over the years and you realize all your investment was for nothing.

 

For me I guess the writing on the wall was somewhere back in 2015 when I realised "Oh ######, I gotta go full sotg to be competitive. Then I have to be clad in moon metal. Crap. Then there were a lot of broken metas. Such as full body nolo that nothing could break, you were invisible. Such as new player gods screwing up the roster of spells. Crap so you telling me a supreme sailboat of 2 fos and 3 people can pretty much raid everywhere, stay near sailboat and be safe while pvping near it? Hot damn. This is a lot to take in. This stuff is broken man, it needs balance. How can a person with a day job really get to these standards AND enjoy pvp? You need a certain degree of masochism to enjoy this..."

 

Like the sort you get in a bad relationship. Many complaints were brought to the devs over the years. Broken valrei. New elevation map. Many metas that encouraged more abuse than anything. People spammed the epic forums with it, and it was nice to see for a time that even rome, MR and BL agreed they were really really badly designed. It was not nice however to see the neglect from the devs. It was not nice to not have any answers to them or any roadmaps. It was not nice to see Epic, a cluster i played in since 2012, bleed players yearly to the point where there are more deeds on epic than players. Let that sink in for a second. It wasn't ONE bad thing that killed Epic. It was just a ton of small stuff that could've been fixed at the right time, just like in a relationship with just a bit of communication. And on top of that, it was just simple neglect and it was obvious to all epic players, devs were more interested in updates towards their higher population of players = Freedom. From a business standpoint, that is understandable. But we Epic players played and payed the same premium. We wanted some attention too.

 

Hey Valrei is bugged badly can we get a fix?
Hey 50% SOTG is damn OP , can we get a fix?

Hey, nolo is broken, can we get a fix?

Hey some spells or player gods are OP can we get a fix?

Hey people abusing the valrei ticket-scenario system is damn painful and unfair, can we get a fix?

Hey why did we get WU skilling system forced on EPIC without consulting us?

Hey what motivation is there to play on epic if every 1 point of skillgained on freedom is transferred to Epic? But not viceversa?

 

Some of those issues were addressed to be fair. But the damage was done already. That's the thing . Epic for me is like one of those bad relationships everyone has at one point where you just break up not because of some big drama, it's just small things that add up where you realise it just costs more to be in that partnership than to be alone.

 

The worst part? All these voices here show just how much pvp and Epic mattered to us. And it still matters. That's the sad part. After all these years of being treated as second hand citizens, as second hand players, pvpers still care about wurm. 

 

Think about that for a while. We have. For years.

Edited by elentari
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its the people like Ekcin who like to pretend we are exaggerating, you will get the memo soon enough buddy

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I'm tired of presenting the same argument to PR that does not exist every single time a thread like this appears, instead I shall simply say

 

goodbye.

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where then will i put my love, Firecat.  I understand though.

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