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PWreset

The "new" Food mechanic is horrible as well

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29 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

i just butchered a cow on a 1 butchering acc and ate all the meat i got off it and went from 20% to full with 1 1/2 pieces left

 

if you can't accept that you're going to burn rice to the bottom of the pan the first few times you cook it that's always an option, otherwise learn how the system works and grind up your hfc

you must be remembering a completely different game because newbies starving faster than they can gather food has always been a thing

 

untrue, I started this game when GV was still the starter location. get a fishing rod (hardest part was getting cotton for the string) and then you could fish. And you could pretty early and easily also get carp or catfish with around 2kg which then fed you pretty well. usual way to survive was just making casserole with some meat + something else. done. The "toughest" part in the newbie flooded GV was finding an tile for foraging and botanizing that wasn't already picked clean.

 

Also, did you ate the meat raw? You know this topic is about cooking. Also, 1 1/2 pieces left? sounds pretty fake/strange, usually a new account can only butcher with the shovel, sword or carving knife which grants you just a 1,20kg piece of meat from a cow.

Edited by PWreset
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pretty sure a new account can use a butchering knife, takes about 2 minutes to get enough iron for small anvil+butchering knife from rummaging. or call it fake, whatever tickles your fancy.

 

the thread is just you complaining about how horrible cooking is at 1 skill, no ###### every skill is horrible at 1, grind it and it's better, otherwise just eat raw meat because nutrition and ccfp are small bonuses not necessities

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The problem is not the cooking system, it's that PWreset apparently doesn't know how to use it, and it's just too complicated for him to get his head around.  Pwoor widdle fing.  Or is this whole thread about how cooking one specific thing an a seriously sub-optimal way produces poor results?  In which case, fair enough, carry on.

 

If something is only 'objectively obvious' to you, then maybe the problem isn't that everyone else can't see it, it's that you can.

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I'm about to start a topic on how my swords all suck with having only 30 weaponsmithing. Please grind the skill before complaining about the usefulness of its products.

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1 hour ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

pretty sure a new account can use a butchering knife, takes about 2 minutes to get enough iron for small anvil+butchering knife from rummaging. or call it fake, whatever tickles your fancy.

 

the thread is just you complaining about how horrible cooking is at 1 skill, no ###### every skill is horrible at 1, grind it and it's better, otherwise just eat raw meat because nutrition and ccfp are small bonuses not necessities

 

How about you play the game as a newbie does? And not someone who already knows everything? They don't know that you even can find iron ore at a rock tile. Your very big issue is that you cannot. But in the end eating 8kg of something not filling your hunger is bad in every sort of way. I doubt you guys have much of an idea abut what a "new player experience means" But doesn't makes me wonder that Wurm loses more and more players while hardly gaining new ones, it didn't improve much in these regards, but strayed away form logic.   Ok LiF is even more worse here because it puts cooking behind a much bigger initial skillwall, but then it is sufficiently there to nourish solely on apples in your early days (without having to eat 50kg of them).

 

36 minutes ago, armyskin said:

I'm about to start a topic on how my swords all suck with having only 30 weaponsmithing. Please grind the skill before complaining about the usefulness of its products.

yes i start to grind cooking till 50 before eating stuff, nice idea. You obviously cannot see why cooking and it's early stages are an entirely different topic within these. and yes crappy sword works pretty well to kill lower mobs.

 

read my op again.

 

it is bad. because you should eat raw high ql meat instead of processed one. that is not logically sound.

Newbies don't know that a butchering knife exists (unless they read lots of wiki stuff first) and even less that you can gather ore that easily from the rock tiles and so on and so on. Yes stuff is easy if you know all these little weird things the mechanics have but they are not logically sound nor intuitive. Thats why I haven't said it is impossible to feed you, I said its a horrible mechanic. 8kg of meat are 8kg of meat, cooking them shouldn't magically make its ability to feed you be gone.

 

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3 minutes ago, PWreset said:

 

How about you play the game as a newbie does? And not someone who already knows everything? They don't know that you even can find iron ore at a rock tile. Your very big issue is that you cannot. But in the end eating 8kg of something not filling your hunger is bad in every sort of way. I doubt you guys have much of an idea abut what a "new player experience means" But doesn't makes me wonder that Wurm loses more and more players while hardly gaining new ones, it didn't improve much in these regards, but strayed away form logic.   Ok LiF is even more worse here because it puts cooking behind a much bigger initial skillwall, but then it is sufficiently there to nourish solely on apples in your early days (without having to eat 50kg of them).

 

yes i start to grind cooking till 50 before eating stuff, nice idea. You obviously cannot see why cooking and it's early stages are an entirely different topic within these. and yes crappy sword works pretty well to kill lower mobs.

 

read my op again.

 

it is bad. because you should eat raw high ql meat instead of processed one. that is not logically sound.

Newbies don't know that a butchering knife exists (unless they read lots of wiki stuff first) and even less that you can gather ore that easily from the rock tiles and so on and so on. Yes stuff is easy if you know all these little weird things the mechanics have but they are not logically sound nor intuitive. Thats why I haven't said it is impossible to feed you, I said its a horrible mechanic. 8kg of meat are 8kg of meat, cooking them shouldn't magically make its ability to feed you be gone.

 

You can feed yourself fairly well with ~10ql meals. I do it all the time. 

 

Also, when you create a brand new account, you show up at the new deed in indy which has ALL the materials you can possibly need as a newbie, such as iron, wood, sand, clay, etc. Need a butchering knife? Go to the mine, tink the iron vein once and make yourself one.

 

Dont know how to feed yourself? Ask in CA Help, and someone will point you to the refreshments guy, or will explain to you in detail how to make food or skill for it. You dont need 50hfc to feed yourself. 10-15 is enough, and if you can't grind that, then Wurm is not for you. Sorry.

 

Everything you are complaining about has been addressed and remedied already. Spawning and immediately heading in some random direction and then starving is a self inflicted problem, not bad game design.

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I'm quite well versed in the new player experience, i give advice in ca help pretty much every time i'm on, with a total of 17k messages sent over the last year, talked many newbies through how to feed themselves in that time. The difference between them and you is they took the advice and fed themselves whereas you cried on the forums for god knows what reason.

 

they have 24 hours until newbie buffs run out to ask people in local (everyone spawns at same place now) or ca help how to feed themselves or how to get iron. there's new player guides. there's a wiki. if you go out of your way to refuse any info yeah you're gonna have a hard time. how can you help someone who doesn't want to be helped?

 

Enjoy talking in circles for whatever entertainment it seems to give you, i'm out, peace.

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Once again: I started and ate raw stuff from foraging and botanizing for weeks. It kept me fed, no starving, though at nutrition of 11%. Later I discovered the local inn which even presented free CCFP food. For the first 24 hrs of playtime I could feed from the barman in the starter deed. Around Christmas there was a yulboard there providing free CCFP meal plus full drinking. Then I got converted, prayed up over 10 faith, and was able to obtain 99% nutrition by saccing. Then I found out about casserolles, cooked in a campfire in the bowl, vegs possible as well as meat, giving full food bar when eating a few, up to 70% nutrition then. And I never considered cooking important for me.

 

The only nonsense that angered me was the "advice" "go fishing" in the tutorials.

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Still don't think that this:

61982d8ac16cbf98412bba667aa033bb.png

 

is more nutritious than this:

b3345b9f30dc379f348ba8b8173327c5.jpg

 ?

 

No wonder cooking is too hard for you.

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I went through the new Albion Online tutorial recently, and was pleasantly surprised at how well they introduced the player to the core concepts, without needing to dig through a wiki or help chat.

 

In comparison, Wurm Online is bad, though I wouldn't blame the tutorial so much as the wonkiness of the game mechanics. Perhaps more importantly, blaming new players for noticing that is self-destructive.

 

I can't say I really care any more, though. :(

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In the Patch Notes for 2 May:

Quote

Change:  Raw, foraged and low quality food will now fill the food bar more based on weight eaten.

  • Players with the newbie food buff will receive an even bigger bonus.

Great to see that the Devs have taken note of the problem as discussed within this thread and made these adjustments. Hopefully it won't have any adverse effects upon the rest of cooking and nutrition levels.

 

=Ayes=

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On 5/2/2019 at 6:45 PM, Ayes said:

In the Patch Notes for 2 May:

Great to see that the Devs have taken note of the problem as discussed within this thread and made these adjustments. Hopefully it won't have any adverse effects upon the rest of cooking and nutrition levels.

 

=Ayes=

 

Oh very nice, that should definately help newbies and give cooking a better usability curve in the early stages.

Edited by PWreset
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On 4/26/2019 at 5:37 PM, Wonka said:

Still don't think that this:

61982d8ac16cbf98412bba667aa033bb.png

 

is more nutritious than this:

b3345b9f30dc379f348ba8b8173327c5.jpg

 ?

 

No wonder cooking is too hard for you.

Pretty sure wild life survives on A, while B just sucks and could be used for cheap dye..

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On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 10:06 AM, Finnn said:

Pretty sure wild life survives on A, while B just sucks and could be used for cheap dye..

 

Hah, I don't really know what worried me more when he posted this, the fact that he thinks this pizza is an edible result, or that he indeed thought "low skill" cooking is causing at ql 1 is producing food in such states. I am by no means a natural skill 50 born cook, but surely I remember that none of my first cooking attempts ever ended like this. neither with meat nor with pizza or whatever and surely they all filled me. So this is a very wogic thing what we have ingame past what reality ever produced as basic logic. And justifying this wogic with the few attemps of people who in reality have cooking skills that would be in the negative rnakes is not explaining this wogic. tbh. That doesn't mean I never burnt any of my food, but that was never skill related the only way to burn your food is when you are distracted and not paying attention. i could question if Wonka ever made any food himself or only fast food, because no one that ever really cooked food and meals would bring such an example up in a serious context.

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The point I was making was that a poor cook can ruin a meal, to the point where it's less nutritious than just eating the raw ingredients.  I've never had any problem with cooking, either in game or out, but then, I'm actually capable of adjusting my actions to what works, instead of throwing my toys out of the pram when something doesn't exactly, perfectly match my idea of how it should be.  Also, I'm perfectly capable of ordering take-out in wurm - there are plenty of sources of very cheap, very filling pre-cooked, wrapped food available on the trade channel.

 

Again, if it doesn't make sense to you, but works for most everyone else, then maybe the problem isn't the system, the problem is you.

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36 minutes ago, Wonka said:

 

 

Again, if it doesn't make sense to you, but works for most everyone else, then maybe the problem isn't the system, the problem is you.

 

This wording implies I cannot make it work, which is wrong. Working =/= making sense. A vital difference that's concept you not seem to understand.

Cooking in general is such primtive basic task that nearly any human can do it and most humans even did it since humanity knows how to make a fire. And none of these were highly trained (skilled) cooks. Making ql 1 cooked food resembling ruined meals is kinda creating a nonsense addition to any. Further it makes people waste good resources to create quantities of bad resources just for the sake of one day outclassing that good resource. And this is a bad concept or processing, in RL as well as in any game having such a concept. but none of this has anything to do with "not being able to make it work"  you can hammer a nail in a plank with a stick, because that works too, but somehow someone for some reason decided it's not the standard way to go. mostlikely because it makes no sense even if it works.

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A hammer is just a stick tho, it just is harder and have a more convenient surface on one side.

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2 hours ago, PWreset said:

Cooking in general is such primtive basic task that nearly any human can do it and most humans even did it since humanity knows how to make a fire. And none of these were highly trained (skilled) cooks.

 

Really having trouble seeing the problem here. The thing to remember is that, in Wurm, a zero-skilled character is essentially a clone fresh out of the incubator — not a unique young adult human with a whole childhood and adolescence behind them full of different passive and active learning experiences. If that were the case, at character creation we would receive randomly rolled characteristics and skills — with some as high as, say, 50. But we don't. All of us start at zero in everything. That means terrible fail rates at a lot of skills that RL adults take for granted, but nevertheless had to be learned at some point in their youth. Apart from cooking, making kindling is one example that comes to mind. 

 

2 hours ago, PWreset said:

Further it makes people waste good resources to create quantities of bad resources just for the sake of one day outclassing that good resource. And this is a bad concept or processing, in RL as well as in any game having such a concept.

 

But the RL learning process often really does involve consuming — I hesitate to call it 'wasting' — resources. I'm pretty sure this is so obvious, on reflection, that there's no need for examples. The way Wurm represents these lost resources is necessarily an approximation; it's a game, so it has to simplify the complex, both for gameplay and programming reasons. You could think of the 50–100 meals it takes to reach a decent level of HFC as a rough equivalent to the food we wasted as children or teenagers messing around in the kitchen.

Edited by Gwyn
clarity

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3 hours ago, PWreset said:

 

This wording implies I cannot make it work, which is wrong. Working =/= making sense. A vital difference that's concept you not seem to understand.

Cooking in general is such primtive basic task that nearly any human can do it and most humans even did it since humanity knows how to make a fire. And none of these were highly trained (skilled) cooks. Making ql 1 cooked food resembling ruined meals is kinda creating a nonsense addition to any. Further it makes people waste good resources to create quantities of bad resources just for the sake of one day outclassing that good resource. And this is a bad concept or processing, in RL as well as in any game having such a concept. but none of this has anything to do with "not being able to make it work"  you can hammer a nail in a plank with a stick, because that works too, but somehow someone for some reason decided it's not the standard way to go. mostlikely because it makes no sense even if it works.

 

Ok, I'll reword: I don't expect wurm to work exactly the same as RL, because it isn't.  So the way cooking works in wurm makes sense to me, because unlike real life, your wurm character doesn't start with an early life of doing stuff.  If it helps you manage your expectations, think of your new wurm toon as a brand new person, with no childhood etc to draw on.  The way cooking works is consistent with basically everything else in wurm: you're really bad at EVERYTHING to start with, including making kindling or picking flowers, but the more you do it, the better you get, and if you want to get better at something quicker, do more of it.

 

There is an argument for making newbie food a bit more nourishing (which seems to have been done) as a QoL change, but to argue that the whole system is bad is to ignore how everything in wurm works.  Basically, you appear to want a different game, or at least, a very different start.  You could argue that all new toons should start with 20 in every skill, which would basically give you what you appear to want, but that seems to take something away from what wurm is.

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28 minutes ago, Wonka said:

 

Ok, I'll reword: I don't expect wurm to work exactly the same as RL, because it isn't.  So the way cooking works in wurm makes sense to me, because unlike real life, your wurm character doesn't start with an early life of doing stuff.  If it helps you manage your expectations, think of your new wurm toon as a brand new person, with no childhood etc to draw on.  The way cooking works is consistent with basically everything else in wurm: you're really bad at EVERYTHING to start with, including making kindling or picking flowers, but the more you do it, the better you get, and if you want to get better at something quicker, do more of it.

 

There is an argument for making newbie food a bit more nourishing (which seems to have been done) as a QoL change, but to argue that the whole system is bad is to ignore how everything in wurm works.  Basically, you appear to want a different game, or at least, a very different start.  You could argue that all new toons should start with 20 in every skill, which would basically give you what you appear to want, but that seems to take something away from what wurm is.

 

It is not consistent. in fact many things in wurm aren't consistent. Mining has 2 caps, the natural resources own ql cap, and the skills cap. Is Wood consistent with this?

Gathering any sort of stuff (butchering, forage, botanize) or fishing is not acting based on the skill, it's outcomes can be purely random.

If you mix herbs to make a healing cover, the ql of the resulting healing cover is not capped with the skill level. It's based on the consumed items ql.

If there would be consistency, food or fileting meat, would also end up like healing covers, not utilizing the skill as a cap. Or healing covers would have to be capped ql wise by the skill as well. 

Yes the game could make the burnt pizza from above, if it treats cooking like healing covers, Because then your skill determines success chances. If you make a proper dish, or burn it. That had consistency with SOME other Wurm mechanics, but it isn't. Wurm is pretty inconsistent within it's mechanics. 

 

The current issues with low ql food is probably more obvious if we would transfer it over to kindlings (as you used them as example)

A kindling fuels a fire for a decent amount of time, much better kindlings heat things up faster. If the current extreme low ql effect of food would be applied for kindlings a ql1 kindling would probably only heat for 10secs. because that is how bad the low ql foods efficiency is. Every ql1 tool does it's job, but I do not need to use a ql1 hatched 20x on a tree to chop it. So no the inefficiency that the low ql early food creates is a massively too steep drop into uselessness (unless you get ql 1 meat). And worse is, the proper efficient alternate option would be just eating the food raw. Which just creates an artificial efficiency gap between unprocessed and raw material. But I cannot cut a log with iron ore. or build the wheel with a log. So other areas in wurm do not have this sort of artificial counterintuitive efficiency gap. All they have is  some sort of hard skill gaps for some items. Yet that COULD also be an alternate for a more consistent cooking method. (but be pretty boring). Like between 0 10 HFC you can only make wrapped meat and cook it, from 10 on you can make casseroles, from 20on you can make stews, from 30 on meals …. 

This would again follow some sort of logic that is consistent with some other aspects of the game.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Gwyn said:

 

Really having trouble seeing the problem here. The thing to remember is that, in Wurm, a zero-skilled character is essentially a clone fresh out of the incubator — not a unique young adult human with a whole childhood and adolescence behind them full of different passive and active learning experiences. If that were the case, at character creation we would receive randomly rolled characteristics and skills — with some as high as, say, 50. But we don't. All of us start at zero in everything. That means terrible fail rates at a lot of skills that RL adults take for granted, but nevertheless had to be learned at some point in their youth. Apart from cooking, making kindling is one example that comes to mind. 

 

 

But the RL learning process often really does involve consuming — I hesitate to call it 'wasting' — resources. I'm pretty sure this is so obvious, on reflection, that there's no need for examples. The way Wurm represents these lost resources is necessarily an approximation; it's a game, so it has to simplify the complex, both for gameplay and programming reasons. You could think of the 50–100 meals it takes to reach a decent level of HFC as a rough equivalent to the food we wasted as children or teenagers messing around in the kitchen.

 

yes there are RL examples where creating waste in the learning process is part of that, cooking however wasn't ever. Unless you ruined it's taste massively, but then you surely didn't do that like 200x in a row and throw that away.

That is why the usual wurm logic for cooking is really bad and why the old cooking system did not have that issue, because proper quantities stuffed you well there, but the nutrition bonus was low and the major effect of food.

And well, 100 meals (just make them) do not bring you to a decent cooking skill. So when I have to imagine my wurmian to be some clone without previous knowledge, he must be a pretty retarted one if he screws such simple task up that often without significantly increasing his skill.

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5 hours ago, PWreset said:

Like between 0 10 HFC you can only make wrapped meat and cook it, from 10 on you can make casseroles, from 20on you can make stews, from 30 on meals …. 

This would again follow some sort of logic that is consistent with some other aspects of the game.

wurm plays you, you do not play wurm by your terms

 

in other words.... difficulty of meals comes from other things not the type of cooked item, even if that also have some... you can make a meal with 5-10-50 ingredients to get more skill than cooking meat+pumpkin.... you could also cook 50 simpler meals to get more skill. etc...

 

I don't want to spoil and tell you how to do it.. but it's simpler than you think, it's also all by wurm mechanic rules.. ask ask ask, ask... people  for better, clever ways to do what you do.

wurm is not your usual mmo

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