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Proposed Rite / Journal Changes

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I believe there is a wide consensus that the new priest journal systems goal of Casting a Global spell is extremely difficult, if not unfair.  After contention, there were changes made that allowed for linked priests to also count as having fulfilled the requirement. It is currently the only goal I see that is not self-determinant.  Furthermore it encourages selfish behavior and protectionism.

 

Currently greed and selfish behavior are rewarded by three points:

1: Guaranteeing you fulfill the journal requirement (Waiting for others might cost you the opportunity. A lottery system would not guarantee you are one of the links, nor prevent ninja casts)

2: Preventing others from getting +5 to skill casts (If you already get this benefit, why risk harming your marketability)

3: 5 hour sleep bonus upon cast. (A minor motivation as it would be received regardless of who casts.)

 

For an already non self-determinant goal, you have further added motivation for others to play the role of spoiler.

 

My suggestion for alleviating / remedying this flaw. These suggestions are not to be taken as a whole, but as parts or a composite:

 

1: Disallow priests who have participated in the rite from participating again. 

2: Potentially increase the total favor drain, which would require more cooperation and priests to be linked. (from 300 to say, 600 required favor).

3: Increase the frequency of casts, and perhaps decrease the reward for doing so.

4: Change the goal to "participate" in a global cast, allowing the 24 hour prayer window to fulfill the requirement.

 

Currently, the non-priest journal line is all capable of being fulfilled by your own actions. Some may say "kill a legendary creature" is not, but there are many opportunities that present. Furthermore, you must only land a hit, not be one of the 3-9 people who happen to be on when at relatively random rite is possible. 

 

Thank you!

 

 

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3 hours ago, nygen said:

1: Disallow priests who have participated in the rite from participating again. 

2: Potentially increase the total favor drain, which would require more cooperation and priests to be linked. (from 300 to say, 600 required favor).

3: Increase the frequency of casts, and perhaps decrease the reward for doing so.

4: Change the goal to "participate" in a global cast, allowing the 24 hour prayer window to fulfill the requirement.

 

1. Ultimately makes it harder to get casts done, this game doesn't have thousands of active players

2. Also makes it harder to get casts done especially for smaller servers, even more so combined with 1

3. dunno

4. Allow 100 faith priests to do something for 100 favor at an altar within 24 hour like you say and it qualifies as being a "link" and completing the task.  Isn't really different than having to be linked, just that they aren't there at the actual cast, which you know.. allows everyone equal opportunity to strive for something and actually complete it and knock down on elitism and exclusivity and those that just simply aren't around in the right time zone or online all the time stalking when someones ready to cast

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Fair observations.

 

  I would say making a rite harder to get done would be beneficial. I believe that bringing people together and encouraging cooperation is a good thing. 

 

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Sooooo up to 24hr after participation with extra rewards... 

 

Replace current journal entry with getting 5-10 of those (where actually participating in the cast also counts as a shot)... So a Rite goes off, you then go to the altar, gotta have 80 or 90 favor to do so in the first place... has to be on a deed you own or are citizen off (should make server hoppers have to SOOOCIALIIIIZE with the locals to get temporary no-access pray-only citizen status... )...

 

Burn your 80 or 90 favor at the altar with "Perform minor rite" or somesuch:

 

Fo gets, on-deed, the effect of a Wild Growth cast on all farm tiles OR 24hr affinity in Forestry and Gardening.

 

Mag geeets... 24hr mining,  and FS affinity like a food buff? 

 

Vyn gets a 24hr +5% exp across the board.

 

Sooomething like that? 

 

Actively participating in the cast would still have an advantage as you'd get that tick, then run to deed and get another tick toward the goal.  Everyone gets 1/10 done, casters get 2/10.

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-1. Enough already whit kicking the dead horse. This goal is bad and needs to be replaced not further tweaked or made harder. How many time has passed since patch where blacklighters are allowed to cast rite on freedom and pools are not even half full on small servers despite people praying their ass of. If we miss the first time pools are available i'm afraid there won't be second chance when pools are empty. There was just 1 cast for blacklighters on Xana and it was private, i didnt know anything about it or when will be cast so i couldn't travel to link

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The goal of my post was to try to find a suitable replacement to implement. If you have ideas to make cooperation more viable, and selfishness less rewarded please do contribute!

 

My "making the cast harder" was one possible way at pushing cooperation.  Wurm is better with friends, an active community, and competitive economy. 

 

:P

Edited by nygen
typo

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if its made to cost more favor they won't co-operate with more people, they'll just make more alts to link. forcing people to co-operate doesn't work, especially as asking people if they want to link for it lets them know that the rite is ready,  and they'd be able to snipe it from under you. as more people do the goal there'll be less competition for casting the rite, which will make the goal easier.

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Well, then stop shrieking and propose ideas.

 

What would YOU replace that goal with? 

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5 minutes ago, Mordraug said:

Well, then stop shrieking and propose ideas.

 

What would YOU replace that goal with? 

There already was a post full of suggestions for replacement of this goal before the update where linking gives credit...

For all those that think wurm is all about cooperation. Cooperation might be nice but forcing people to cooperate by offering insane rewards is wrong. Also we are not all the same and not all people want to play in group. Nobody forbids you to play and cooperate with others but understand people who don't want that and give them room to play their style without forcing them to feel left out. 

A little bit understanding from extroverted people towards introverts is much needed thing, not just in this game but generally in the world.

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1 hour ago, kochinac said:

A little bit understanding from extroverted people towards introverts is much needed thing, not just in this game but generally in the world.

 

Uuuuuh dude, my definition of a good deed location involves one where I can sit at my workshop without any neighbors in local.  My definition of a good weekend is one where no one rang my damned phone.  Drinking alone is better to not have to self-censor while drunk ('cause really, then what's the point?).  Thou preachest to the choir.

 

But even the biggest introvert needs to join society here and there eh.

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Even if your goal is to enjoy hermitage, In my opinion, having someone else benefit from spoiling your chance to fulfill a goal is a poor implementation. 

 

I promote cooperation, but at the very least want to disincentive hostility.  

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6 minutes ago, nygen said:

Even if your goal is to enjoy hermitage, In my opinion, having someone else benefit from spoiling your chance to fulfill a goal is a poor implementation. 

 

I promote cooperation, but at the very least want to disincentive hostility.  

 

Amen, hence my suggestion..... full hermits pray at home, gonna have to wait some for all 10 casts.  Half-hermits will pray at home and score temporary citizenship at other servers to speed things up.  Non-hermits will get extra points toward their goal by going all the way to the cast to link up (assuming that they manage to) before heading home to pray for that second point.

 

You get to choose the speed at which you get your reward based on your own wurm lifestyle.  As for off-server citizenship, it's a safe bet that all but the absolute worst antisocials will at least be able to set up something with a friend or a friend's buddy.

 

Sounds better than "hermits will never complete this one", no?

Edited by Mordraug

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I've already made enough points and recieved enough flak about this goal.

 

If you go to the Celebration subforum, you'll see we've been trying to get a Rite of Death done for the community, however no matter how many people we've had praying constantly, including alts, we've still not made a single dent. I think we can clearly see the goal isn't going to go away regardless of how skewed the difficulty is, and it's a shame that most players will never see the most appealing carrot on the stick be possibly attainable.

 

If the goal is never going to go away, I think it's pretty fair to change how rites work a bit. If there's less priests of a certain faith on a server, it shouldn't need the same amount of prays to do the rite as normally. There really should be more messages from sermons giving more detail about how close you are to a rite cast too.

Edited by Madnath
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Definitely should scale to the server's follower and priest population.

 

We could simplify my suggestion in fact... 

 

Change goal to "Get 10 ritual point".  Casting it/being part of the link gives a point, "praying for ritual" in the 24hrs after gives a point.  Same as I mentioned before, except:

a)  Be on the server when the rite is cast.

b)  You got 24hrs to burn 80/90 faith at an altar by "praying for ritual" or whatever.

c)  You get nothing from doing that, doesn't matter if you're on your own deed.

 

Once again gives 4 ways to do it:

-  Be social and try to score 2 points a ritual whenever and wherever they happen.  Should be relatively fast.

-  Be antisocial and score your point a ritual each time a server fires a ritual off.   Shouldn't be too slow.

-  Be a hermit and never even have to leave your deed, but it's gonna take ages.

-  Combination of the above.

 

2 more copper from me eh, to me this sounds faster and less stressful than having to try to muscle your way into a cast.

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-1

 

I'm not going to bother trying to explain to this guy.

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1 hour ago, Wargasm said:

-1

 

I'm not going to bother trying to explain to this guy.

-1 to you too sir. :P 

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I'm pretty sure someone else somewhere has already covered this, but just in case.

 

Getting this goal done gives advantage to players who have managed to get it done over ones that haven't. Since they have a chance for better casts than others -> financial benefit from cornering the market. *

So instead of encouraging co-operation, this gives incentive for people who have already done it to keep spamming global cast before anyone else can, to corner the market. This brings out rivalry, toxicity and distrust among playerbase.

Sure, nice people try to play fair and help others, but it doesn't take many rotten tomatoes to spoil it all. Especially when people trying to organize casts for those who have not yet done it, will simply give more alert and time for cornering people to get their cast out.

 

This is bad game design.

 

Also when you bring out new features (which I by the way love you devs for, so many good things you've done) you MUST look not only for the good things but also the negatives and try to anticipate exploits. Here it seems none of that thinking happened.

 

 

* Benefit over others because you got something done, say for example WS 90+ so you can sell better weapons than someone else IS ok. That other player has a chance to get there too. You can't block them from it. BUT when you can reach a goal AND block (or at least try to) block others from getting same goal done, thus securing your advantage -> That is the problem.

 

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1 hour ago, Nestangol said:

I'm pretty sure someone else somewhere has already covered this, but just in case.

 

Getting this goal done gives advantage to players who have managed to get it done over ones that haven't. Since they have a chance for better casts than others -> financial benefit from cornering the market. *

So instead of encouraging co-operation, this gives incentive for people who have already done it to keep spamming global cast before anyone else can, to corner the market. This brings out rivalry, toxicity and distrust among playerbase.

Sure, nice people try to play fair and help others, but it doesn't take many rotten tomatoes to spoil it all. Especially when people trying to organize casts for those who have not yet done it, will simply give more alert and time for cornering people to get their cast out.

 

This is bad game design.

 

Also when you bring out new features (which I by the way love you devs for, so many good things you've done) you MUST look not only for the good things but also the negatives and try to anticipate exploits. Here it seems none of that thinking happened.

 

 

* Benefit over others because you got something done, say for example WS 90+ so you can sell better weapons than someone else IS ok. That other player has a chance to get there too. You can't block them from it. BUT when you can reach a goal AND block (or at least try to) block others from getting same goal done, thus securing your advantage -> That is the problem.

 

 

Yeah I already mentioned it in an earlier thread made, it's all been pointed out already, but nothing will be done without something happening.

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