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Wargasm

Two Birds, One Stone

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6 hours ago, Taltos said:

-1 If people can play the entire game for free why would anyone ever go to freedom and add income to the game?

 

On 4/4/2019 at 4:10 PM, Wargasm said:

Deeds/upkeep will obviously still cost silver. 

 

Freedom would still have many things over Epic that would invite players to it.

 

Also, it's not like Epic adds much income to the game in its current state, anyways. To my knowledge, at least.

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5 hours ago, Jore said:

Freedom would still have many things over Epic that would invite players to it.

Like what? 

The only apeal to freedom would be posibility of pure pve and 100% security for your deed and items (but thats security isn't really neglectable on home servers), so is it really worth the price freedomers would pay. And also Epic has more content of it would become free why would someone pay for less content?

I like the idea but I think there need to be tweaks to make freedom more appealing and give people more reasons to pay to play on freedom Vs playing on free on Epic. Otherwise it would be just another slap in the face to remaining veterans that invested years in their life on freedom and don't want to move and start over, which ironically is the situation many people from epic was and are still

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5 minutes ago, kochinac said:

And also Epic has more content of it would become free why would someone pay for less content?

everything that epic, and pvp in general had as "content" has been butchered and shipped over to freedom already, tomes are on freedom and easier to get, moonmetal is on freedom, valrei creatures straight up don't spawn outside the occasional spawn of uttacha (i haven't seen a sol demon or son of nogump in the last year, seen them spawned by gm's on freedom more often)  and i wouldn't call 100 drakespirits in the corner of the ocean content. there's nothing on epic you wouldn't see on freedom

 

90% of people will pick pve over pvp regardless of whether it's free or not, independence was premium only when it came out and it was pretty populated, when rolf made one of the home servers full pvp back in the day like 2/3 of the home server quit, people will pay just to avoid pvp. there's 0 tweaks needed to make pve more appealing because the majority of the playerbase avoids pvp like the plague.

 

 

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Free to play might be the only way to save epic. It is a pvp cluster so make the land more expensive to own, people are better off living together in kingdoms and villages anyways and trader helps pmk with the upkeep cost. Maybe the only freemium restriction should be being unable to become priest. 

 

Prices of things such as spirit templars/wraiths, resurrection stones, shaker orbs could also be increased to balance things out. 

 

Edited by Maiev

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It struck me as an odd idea at first, but the more I think about it, the better I think it will be for the game, PvP community, and epic.

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The PvP cluster is redundant as mentioned above and the majority of players gave up on it then defaulted back to the original cluster the moment they got the chance. The proof of that is in the time right after Freedom players were allowed to join Epic, some big fights ensued but it ultimately didn't work and despite the heavy skill reductions people left Epic because it had died, it wasn't dying, it was long dead, so dead not even Libila her self couldn't rebirth that corpse. The idea of Epic being anything other than a corpse is fanciful, making Epic uncapped F2P will make it a jest and it'll maybe get some activity for a month or two until the novelty wears off, a bit like Challenge did but it'd probably live long enough for those still holding items they need to offload. Anyone still bleating about how the time they've invested in building or pixels and whatever else will be lost needs to read about the stages of grief and remember you all agreed to play with the understanding of full loot, property destruction and/or loss of anything and everything within that cluster the day you created your characters. You were given the chance to move your characters, if you didn't take it at that time and have spent more time beating a dead horse well, that's on you. There was never going to be a solution for housing two clusters on what is a very niche player base in decline, hence the merge.

I remember when Rolf sought some feedback from us few that played on old Affliction before it was reset, stating that the server wasn't covering costs and something needed to be done to help it recover. He reset it and made it bigger. Thousands of hours worth of stuff was lost yet the changes didn't save Affliction, the resilient rebuilt and the weak willed resigned and some just exploded into clouds of red mist. However, Wurm kept turning with the memory of old Affliction growing smaller as each moment passed until old Affliction became Affliction, people stopped making the distinction and the same will happen with the Epic cluster and Freedom, once we collectively let go of deluded notions.

We can make Chaos use the a version of the F2P model if it's believed that's going to help and/or apply any other ideas to Chaos to fuel the PvP scene but the reality is, Epic is dead and the majority of those still advocating for it to be anything other than unplugged are probably motivated by means other than sentiment. I support the idea of taking steps towards increasing the population by means that don't have anything to do with a separate cluster and instead focuses efforts on a consolidated player base not a divided one. I like the Epic curve, it worked great and I think there are ways to make F2P work all round in ways it can be fun for casuals to bolster numbers and as fodder the die hard warriors will grind into paste.

Allowing F2P up to 70 fighting and cap their characteristics at 30, applying the curve to Chaos but cap F2P at '70 effective' and no meditation path or other premium benefits such as priests. This speeds up the overall time required to get competitive for both whilst not giving F2P too much ability (that will be abused) and still giving new players a much more insightful experience. However, every 6 months (idk) they should be subjected to a 50% reduction in all skills and characteristics. The reason for this, if they are still playing after such a long time it's safe to assume they are enjoying the game and should contribute to it's upkeep or they can either keep regrinding every X months. Other wise they choose to become a premium player and play like everyone else does paying each month, it also has the added benefit of making life difficult for those whom will inevitably try to maintain multiple alts for nefarious activities.

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i would have +1'd this idea like 2 years ago, but since we havent seen any intention to change anything on epic for more than a year, and since we havent seen the staff admitting that epic needs to be shut down otherwise, i think we can safely assume that the epic servers are just rotting in a backroom somewhere cause someone lost the key and they couldnt unplug it even if they wanted to...

 

seriously, do you need more proof of neglection here? the epic servers are just running cause they are appearently low maintenance, since NOTHING has happened to better their situation for eons now.

sure, maybe staff will pick up on the idea of it being f2p, but honestly, if they need us to tell them what to do, then why are we playing still.

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Retro already confirmed that shutting down an Epic is not an option, and won't happen. So it gonna last either someone's like it or not.

 

On a side note, I find it amusing, like people that used to play here, explain that they play on freedom couse skills transfers only in one way.

 

Thing is, if someone wants to play on Epic and is not interested in freedom environment, why he should care that skills do not transfer to freedom?

You have nice curve here, faster timers and only real one sandbox, without artificial restrictions.

 

In my opinion, transfer of skills from freedom to Epic should be ended. People could focus on one cluster, and would have their "backup" of skills on other cluster they don't play.

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40 minutes ago, Wilczan said:

In my opinion, transfer of skills from freedom to Epic should be ended. People could focus on one cluster, and would have their "backup" of skills on other cluster they don't play.

 

I don't mind the one-way skill transfer; most of the activity I see on Epic is generated from people hopping over from Freedom.

Edited by Roccandil

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1 hour ago, Wilczan said:

On a side note, I find it amusing, like people that used to play here, explain that they play on freedom couse skills transfers only in one way.

 

Thing is, if someone wants to play on Epic and is not interested in freedom environment, why he should care that skills do not transfer to freedom?

You have nice curve here, faster timers and only real one sandbox, without artificial restrictions.

 

For me, I felt that my time and investment into the cluster and skills were ignored in heavy favor of being devalued for a broken system that no one wanted and hardly anyone enjoys.  Other people that tried to get back into Epic tell me how sad it is someone just spams creation daily and now they're way stronger than the average account after years and years of epic pre-new skill system.  That fast and spammy skilling is ok, if it was there from the start like on challenge.  Instead it tells me my investment wasn't worth it, and gives me a lack of trust that any further time skilling on epic wouldn't just be thrown out the window in some other way.  This is why I rather grind on freedom; I get my skills on both cluster, and where I grinded them won't ever change or be devalued.  As for enjoying the epic environment, having to close the door behind me on my way out because there was no one else left to do it told me there was nothing to enjoy anymore.  Doesn't mean I prefer freedom, doesn't mean I don't miss when epic was populated and fun, I'd love to get 2013 epic back but I don't think that is possible because after so many years too many people just simply moved on from the game entirely.  I don't think adding full access to f2p is going to bring it back, the only thing that would is a time machine so someone can go back and force the devs to give epic more attention so people didn't leave in the first place

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10 hours ago, MrGARY said:

For me, I felt that my time and investment into the cluster and skills were ignored in heavy favor of being devalued for a broken system that no one wanted and hardly anyone enjoys.  Other people that tried to get back into Epic tell me how sad it is someone just spams creation daily and now they're way stronger than the average account after years and years of epic pre-new skill system.  That fast and spammy skilling is ok, if it was there from the start like on challenge.  Instead it tells me my investment wasn't worth it, and gives me a lack of trust that any further time skilling on epic wouldn't just be thrown out the window in some other way. 

Every improvement that makes game easier, could be taken as devaluating of people's previous work/effort.

 

Not comparing to your effort, couse You started years earlier and put tremendously more effort into your account on worse conditions then when I started (besides I bought an account with decent stats already), but I also can recognize few examples:

 

I grinded climbing to 60, before skilling system update. Now it goes like a blitz.

Made houndreds of slate slabs, before they make it so easy.

Surface mined huge amounts of rock before they make it much easier.

Making tunnels of 20 slope, checking if I slide down and fixing each tile with 6-8 concretes, before they introduced mine borders and values of slopes in it.

That's only few examples but list can go on and on.

 

I think all those improvements are heavily needed, if we want to attend new players, but also if we want a game to be a joy, not only slow and boring duty. And if some of them devaluate our effort, let's be it.

Edited by Wilczan
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3 hours ago, Wilczan said:

Every improvement that makes game easier, could be taken as devaluating of people's previous work/effort.

*snip*

I think all those improvements are heavily needed, if we want to attend new players, but also if we want a game to be a joy, not only slow and boring duty. And if some of them devaluate our effort, let's be it.

 

Meet Wilczan:

Wilczan is smart and knows that the game needs to improve, even if it makes things easier for new players than what he had it in his own time.

Be more like Wilczan.

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There's a difference between game improvements and straight out shafting players, just like there is a difference between what is acceptable to force onto people who play epic vs people who play freedom. Its fine to devalue time and effort on epic, screw with everything, bend it, break it, ignore it - but don't you dare do it to freedom and don't dare let those low life second rate players have anything they worked for on the stable version of the game after breaking assurances time and again that things were stable for them too.

 

Be more like the hypocrites that believe what is good for the neighbour isn't welcome at home

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20 hours ago, MrGARY said:

Other people that tried to get back into Epic tell me how sad it is someone just spams creation daily and now they're way stronger than the average account after years and years of epic pre-new skill system.

 

Would love to know what they're grinding with creation spam. I suspect I've done the most leveling of anyone on Epic since the skillgain update, and creation spam isn't where it's at. (At a decent skill, fast actions mean you blow through creation and get even less skill for mats used, and you can't AFK it, even with a high queue size.)

 

I'm assuming, of course, that "creation spam" indicates a skill that could be ground by imping, not something like locksmithing or metallurgy.

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12 hours ago, Wilczan said:

I think all those improvements are heavily needed, if we want to attend new players, but also if we want a game to be a joy, not only slow and boring duty. And if some of them devaluate our effort, let's be it.

 

Just to reiterate what Sme said, I am all for things that actually improve the game.  If you looked through my post history in suggestions you'd find I'm all for new player qol and qol in general and bringing the game closer to 2019.  There's a massive difference between making surface mining faster vs totally changing the skilling system which affects your actual account.  No one's going to cry that their surface mining project can be done by someone else a little faster now, or that someone else can make slabs faster now, or whatever.  However, how would people on freedom feel if their account they spent years working on can be matched in a sheer fraction of the time and replaced because of a huge update no one wanted?  It might be good for pvp, and like I said would be great from the start of epic the same as it was fine for challenge, but if this was so good for new players wouldn't epic have more than the two small groups it has now?  Would everyone that plays on freedom support bringing epics skillgain system to freedom, as well the spammy creation speeds?  Or maybe, hardly anyone likes the broken skillgain system.  At noob levels, and I know this because I grinded plenty of 1 level alts for personal goals, grinding on epic has hardly any advantage, it was actually easier to grind carp to 50 on freedom because I didn't have to keep burning the ql down or make more things to imp since this system needs easy actions for skilling.  At noob levels, creation speed isn't even fast.  They won't know the difference from freedom and by the time they get enough skill to really notice differences and get the spammy speeds they aren't newish anymore and would have had to survive the new player retention test period.  The only thing the skill system changed was push people away from epic and the merge just let people escape instead of quitting or buying a freedom account.  It doesn't help new players at all, it didn't help the games population.  F2p max levels isn't going to help legit new players either because they still need to survive the new player retention period before they'd even cap their skills

 

2 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Would love to know what they're grinding with creation spam

 

I was told a mix of woodcutting and arrowshafts

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19 minutes ago, MrGARY said:

At noob levels, and I know this because I grinded plenty of 1 level alts for personal goals, grinding on epic has hardly any advantage, it was actually easier to grind carp to 50 on freedom because I didn't have to keep burning the ql down or make more things to imp since this system needs easy actions for skilling. At noob levels, creation speed isn't even fast.  They won't know the difference from freedom and by the time they get enough skill to really notice differences and get the spammy speeds they aren't newish anymore and would have had to survive the new player retention test period.  The only thing the skill system changed was push people away from epic and the merge just let people escape instead of quitting or buying a freedom account.  It doesn't help new players at all, it didn't help the games population.  F2p max levels isn't going to help legit new players either because they still need to survive the new player retention period before they'd even cap their skills

 

That's not my experience with the new players who've joined my village. They could tell they were leveling up very quickly, and they didn't want to go to Freedom, even though they knew Freedom skills would transfer. Also, I've heard multiple folks say the skilling system feels more natural and more fun (not just me!).

 

F2P would help retain players who want to play sometimes, but not all the time (and I've seen that too).

 

From what I've heard, the need to skill with low difficulty actions is unintended: all actions were supposed to be equal. I'd totally support making skilling at higher difficulties the same as it is now with low difficulty.

 

Blaming the skilling system for people leaving Epic for Freedom when they had the chance is unfair, I think. I suspect that would have happened without any skill system changes.

 

19 minutes ago, MrGARY said:

I was told a mix of woodcutting and arrowshafts

 

I could see some sense to woodcutting (felling/logging/kindling/etc.), but cutting trees down is really much more effective skillgain, as long as you have trees to chop (and on Ele, no shortage of them!).

 

Arrowshafts sounds like a long way to grind fletching. Imping is much better (especially if you use a BSB/crate to convert imp-type to log, since you get double ML ticks, and imping with just a log is easy and can even be AFKd somewhat if your queue size is decent).

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