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4 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

Prayer grind is soul destroying.

 

It needs fixing in some reasonable way to make it more interesting, as well as rewarding engaged play.

Don't give them ideas to make another grind into interactive games with no reward at all pls...

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6 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Were it my game, I'd allow you to pray repeatedly until your stamina bar ran out, all for one click.

 

Why is attempting to force people to be "attentive" to monotonous and repetitive gameplay considered a good thing? If I wanted people to be attentive to a game I developed, I'd earn it by designing interesting and fun gameplay, not force it by dangling a distant reward in front of players and saying, "click tens of thousands of times in this long, indescribably boring process to win!".

 

Almost sounds like a cruel experiment. :P

The world must be ending. I am finding myself agreeing with Roccandil.

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What can help with the prayer grind (even if devs do decide to make prayer great again it's gonna take a while so, in the meantime...).. 

 

Have the altar selected on the button bar.

F1

setoption no_world_render true

 

Alt+tab between that and another game, preferrably something pause-friendly (A Civ game, a MUD, or a Wurm alt but with the praying one using way less system resources).  Bonus if you switch the praying one to small resolution windowed.

 

Definitely not an elegant solution but it'll at least get you halfway there eh.

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11 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

not wanting thousands of commands a minute sent to the server by a single person = keyboard police state

 

okei then

 

 

Simply put, the server should be able to mitigate anything coming from the client, be it 10 commands or 1000 commands, and grant or limit based on server-side logic.  The client (user) should not have to become the server's babysitter.

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3 minutes ago, Eyesgood said:

Simply put, the server should be able to mitigate anything coming from the client, be it 10 commands or 1000 commands, and grant or limit based on server-side logic.  The client (user) should not have to become the server's babysitter.

 

You're suggesting the server should ignore client inputs?

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24 minutes ago, Mordraug said:

What can help with the prayer grind (even if devs do decide to make prayer great again it's gonna take a while so, in the meantime...).. 

 

Have the altar selected on the button bar.

F1

setoption no_world_render true

 

Alt+tab between that and another game, preferrably something pause-friendly (A Civ game, a MUD, or a Wurm alt but with the praying one using way less system resources).  Bonus if you switch the praying one to small resolution windowed.

 

Definitely not an elegant solution but it'll at least get you halfway there eh.

Make sure you always see the Wurm client window whatever legal solution you use. You need to be aware of the attentive gameplay rule and have a glimpse at the client window at least every 4 minutes and respond any popups you may receive.

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19 hours ago, Eyesgood said:

Simply put, the server should be able to mitigate anything coming from the client, be it 10 commands or 1000 commands, and grant or limit based on server-side logic.  The client (user) should not have to become the server's babysitter.

key locking is directly prohibited in the rules regardless of whether it's 10 commands or 1000 commands so i'm not really sure what you're arguing. why would they program the client to assist you in breaking the rules?

 

but whatever, the client already does do it in a sense, where you're limited to 10 inputs in a .1 second time, but funny that it doesn't stop you from keylocking, still kicks you from the game due to keylocking, and actually makes other parts of the game not work properly (using a g-series that goes through every tool in the toolbelt and trying to imp for example, won't work properly unless you don't have an item selected) because dumb artificial limits only impact actual game-play and don't do anything to stop abusers. whodathunkit

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19 hours ago, Jaz said:

Make sure you always see the Wurm client window whatever legal solution you use. You need to be aware of the attentive gameplay rule and have a glimpse at the client window at least every 4 minutes and respond any popups you may receive.

Although I agree we should pay attention to the game, its rather sadistic to design gameplay around forcing someone do a repetitive, meaningless and unsatisfying actions for a long period of time. Its like getting a job licking envelopes, but without the pay. If I wanted to spend 5 hours a day doing nothing but pressing the same button on my keyboard, I'd go to the Ritz Carlton and become an elevator operator and get paid.

 

If the concern here is that you have to be constantly staring at the screen, we are going down the wrong path. I have a 2nd computer with a second keyboard and mouse and I stretch my arm to click the bind key every couple minutes. Hearing I can be banned because if it is absurd.

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22 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

Although I agree we should pay attention to the game, its rather sadistic to design gameplay around forcing someone do a repetitive, meaningless and unsatisfying actions for a long period of time. Its like getting a job licking envelopes, but without the pay. If I wanted to spend 5 hours a day doing nothing but pressing the same button on my keyboard, I'd go to the Ritz Carlton and become an elevator operator and get paid.

 

If the concern here is that you have to be constantly staring at the screen, we are going down the wrong path. I have a 2nd computer with a second keyboard and mouse and I stretch my arm to click the bind key every couple minutes. Hearing I can be banned because if it is absurd.

 

Okay @Roccandil, what have you done with the real Angelkaine. Where is he?

Don't be coy this time, I'll find him. I have ways.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

cXIM8Xq.png

 

Wait a second...

 

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29 minutes ago, Flubb said:

 

Okay @Roccandil, what have you done with the real Angelkaine. Where is he?

Don't be coy this time, I'll find him. I have ways.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

cXIM8Xq.png

 

Wait a second...

 

I don't know what you're talking about. I will deny anything claimed I said above forever.

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20 hours ago, Chakron said:

 

You're suggesting the server should ignore client inputs?

I said, "mitigate" not "ignore".  I am not a fan of putting controls on the client.  Developers have very little control over client code because once released, it can be reverse-engineered, manipulated, and so many other things I wont mention.  However, the server code can be locked down and monitored.  You can never totally control what hits the server, but you can always control what the server does in response.  I am merely pointing out that good server-side controls can deal with an abusive client.  Every good developer knows the place to deal with problems is on the server-side in a distributed application because you cannot ever really trust what is coming from the client, period.

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25 minutes ago, Eyesgood said:

I said, "mitigate" not "ignore".  I am not a fan of putting controls on the client.  Developers have very little control over client code because once released, it can be reverse-engineered, manipulated, and so many other things I wont mention.  However, the server code can be locked down and monitored.  You can never totally control what hits the server, but you can always control what the server does in response.  I am merely pointing out that good server-side controls can deal with an abusive client.  Every good developer knows the place to deal with problems is on the server-side in a distributed application because you cannot ever really trust what is coming from the client, period.

 

I agree with you completely. Sorry, for some reason I thought you were suggesting the opposite.

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Also, just for comparison....

On 3/20/2019 at 7:11 PM, Sn00 said:

[18:50:58] Prayer increased by 0,0035 to 69,0010

[20:09:48] Prayer increased by 0,0035 to 69,1260

[19:00:01] Forestry increased by 0.0015 to 79.1339
[19:14:58] Forestry increased by 0.0020 to 79.2584

 

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This is on Epic, affinity food and SB on:

[22:32:43] Prayer increased by 0.0019 to 69.7390

 

You had 2x ticks (on freedom ?) ...

Edited by Jaz

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33 minutes ago, Jaz said:

This is on Epic, affinity food and SB on:

[22:32:43] Prayer increased by 0.0019 to 69.7390

 

You had 2x ticks (on freedom ?) ...

 

I suspect you're getting those ticks every prayer, and Snoo isn't.

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True. Epic is kind enough to give the ticks for all the prayers.

 

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23 hours ago, Jaz said:

Make sure you always see the Wurm client window whatever legal solution you use. You need to be aware of the attentive gameplay rule and have a glimpse at the client window at least every 4 minutes and respond any popups you may receive.

 

Unless you're past 70 mind logic, at 30 seconds per prayer, you should have to requeue more than every 4 minutes, or you'll end up with idle windows which in theory should remove you from the "botlike behaviour" check.  If you're re-queueing the second your timer of choice warns you, then yeah pay more attention to that window for the popup questions 'cause that kind of dedication can be mistaken for botting.

 

Btw... don't do the cat and laser pointer bit, it'll end up with both sides calling lawyers to make sense of it =P 

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Wurm, the only “sandbox” game that requires you to grind for 10 years to actually play the game the way it’s supposed to be played.

Edited by Holar
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2 minutes ago, Holar said:

Wurm, the only “sandbox” game that requires you to grind for 10 years to actually play the game the way it’s supposed to be played.

 

So true. :( At least that's -not- true on Epic, but then, not many people play here.

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On 3/20/2019 at 1:21 PM, Sindusk said:

This is the one Wurm problem with no real solution. Since most of the actions in Wurm are repetitive, the difference between a macro/bot and a human being blurs a lot.

 

For example, most modern keyboards will allow you to edit the repeat "interval" when you hold down a key. If you set it to 1 minute and put a rock on your key, is that a macro? How would anything detect that is what's happening and not a person pressing the key every minute?

 

Repetition is both easy to bot, and boring to do, and the more I play Wurm, the more I'm inclined to say scrap the skilling system entirely. Replace it with a goals-based system, in which the gameplay diversity of a skill is used to level up a player, rather than the uniformity of grinding.


Not only can that make it more fun, but also harder to bot.

 

For example, consider the following spread of potential prospecting goals (prayer doesn't have enough gameplay for my purposes here! :P ) :

  • Find rock salt
  • Prospect a vein of rock
  • Find an iron vein from the surface
  • Prospect an iron vein
  • Analyse a rock shard
  • Find a zinc/tin/copper vein
  • Prospect a zinc/tin/copper vein
  • Analyze one of every shard (marble/slate/sandstone)
  • Find an iron lode (at least 3+ iron veins revealed in one prospecting action)
  • Find 10 unique iron veins
  • Find a silver vein
  • Find a silver lode (at least 3+ silver veins revealed in one prospecting action)
  • Find a gold vein
  • Find a gold load (at least 3+ gold veins revealed in one prospecting action
  • Find a resource rich area (at least 5 different kinds of veins)
  • Find a resource poor area (only rock)
  • Find 10 unique silver veins
  • Find a motherlode (at least 5 gold veins revealed in one prospecting action)

And so on. Add/scale/balance the goals as needed (I realize some could be griefed), and use them to level up a player in prospecting, unlocking more capabilities as they go.

 

Whatever the details of the goals, consider the fundamental/functional difference:

 

- Current system has player standing on one tile hitting a button over and over again, occasionally shifting tiles. Fun level: low. Bot vulnerability: very high.

- Goal system has player exploring servers actually prospecting for veins. Fun level: potentially higher, especially for newer players (you need to meet logistical requirements first: get yer gear, get yer faithful pack horse, figure out how to live off the land and dodge the varmints, and then become that grizzled prospector of legend always muttering about "gold, gold in them thar hills!"). Bot vulnerability: very low.

 

I know which method I'd prefer. :)

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5 hours ago, Roccandil said:

 

Repetition is both easy to bot, and boring to do, and the more I play Wurm, the more I'm inclined to say scrap the skilling system entirely. Replace it with a goals-based system, in which the gameplay diversity of a skill is used to level up a player, rather than the uniformity of grinding.


Not only can that make it more fun, but also harder to bot.

 

For example, consider the following spread of potential prospecting goals (prayer doesn't have enough gameplay for my purposes here! :P ) :

  • Find rock salt
  • Prospect a vein of rock
  • Find an iron vein from the surface
  • Prospect an iron vein
  • Analyse a rock shard
  • Find a zinc/tin/copper vein
  • Prospect a zinc/tin/copper vein
  • Analyze one of every shard (marble/slate/sandstone)
  • Find an iron lode (at least 3+ iron veins revealed in one prospecting action)
  • Find 10 unique iron veins
  • Find a silver vein
  • Find a silver lode (at least 3+ silver veins revealed in one prospecting action)
  • Find a gold vein
  • Find a gold load (at least 3+ gold veins revealed in one prospecting action
  • Find a resource rich area (at least 5 different kinds of veins)
  • Find a resource poor area (only rock)
  • Find 10 unique silver veins
  • Find a motherlode (at least 5 gold veins revealed in one prospecting action)

And so on. Add/scale/balance the goals as needed (I realize some could be griefed), and use them to level up a player in prospecting, unlocking more capabilities as they go.

 

Whatever the details of the goals, consider the fundamental/functional difference:

 

- Current system has player standing on one tile hitting a button over and over again, occasionally shifting tiles. Fun level: low. Bot vulnerability: very high.

- Goal system has player exploring servers actually prospecting for veins. Fun level: potentially higher, especially for newer players (you need to meet logistical requirements first: get yer gear, get yer faithful pack horse, figure out how to live off the land and dodge the varmints, and then become that grizzled prospector of legend always muttering about "gold, gold in them thar hills!"). Bot vulnerability: very low.

 

I know which method I'd prefer. :)

 

That's actually not half bad. I don't think they have to mutually exclusive though.

If skilling was only possible via prescriptive goals, no matter how many and diverse they are, they may conflict with ones current (personal, project oriented) goals. Kind of counterproductive for a sandbox game to be pulled out of what you actually want to do (and I'm not saying WO is perfect in that regard, certain priest journal goals are heatedly debated because of this.)

Both grinding and "goal hunting" could exist in a hybrid system where grinding is the safe and possibly slower variant, and goals are more "unreliable" but faster when done quickly. Ideally, over the long haul both options would even out to roughly the same results, but accomodating more playstyles.

Edited by Flubb
distinguishing goals set by the player and "game goals"
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Having a skill like prayer that basically forces you into a mind-numbing action to grind it and also actively punishing you for attempting to bot it/macro is insane.  Do you reasonably expect people to stay glued to their screens for 4-6 months a few hours a day to press one key repeatedly? That's the most insane game design ever.  And I wouldn't be surprised if a few people lost their minds if they attempted it.

 

Either lower the difficulty of prayer to something decent like 50 skill needed for the goal, or do something like increase prayer timers to 2 minutes each, and Give Higher Skill ticks for them based on that timer. If we have to AFK it , let's afk it like fishing used to be, with longer windows between requeueing actions.

 

For those who remembered the old fishing system, the motherlode of all AFK skills in the game, I used to queue up 7 fishing actions (60 Mind logic) and just do chores around the house. It was a nice thing from time to time. But it was never rewarding. Fishing and praying is not rewarding. I can live without fish in the game. You cannot reasonably put an artificial insane barrier to something without offering an equal reward for surpassing that obstacle. Either people will find creative ways to macro, or dump the entire venture altogether.

 

Either rework prayer, lower the difficulty gain or make it so it has some feasible rewards for the trouble.

 

PS: I don't see titles as a reward in themselves since they don't give any sensible bonuses like other games.

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For anyone looking to cheese the goal asap do it on epic, goal transfers back.

 

Freedom tick 

[20:52:59] Prayer increased by 0.0488 to 14.1867

 

Epic tick

[20:51:52] Prayer increased by 0.0724 to 14.8508

 

Epic has 100% skill tick rate and higher skillgain rate whereas freedom it's well under 40% at higher levels because there's no way to increase the diff of prayer so you'll get 70 prayer 4-5x faster, and prayer is a completely useless skill so you don't really lose much except 2 titles doing it there.

 

or just champ MR/BL then dechamp and get instant 70, but that requires 50 faith. i guess if you did 6x 2s alts you could sermon up to 50 faith in about 2 weeks or so, plus the 2 weeks to get to 30 faith as a follower

Edited by Oblivionnreaver
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Yes, the prayer grind is easy on Epic, and I wouldn't mind hosting Freedomers who just wanted to do that (would help charge the Serenity favor pools!). :)

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7 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

For anyone looking to cheese the goal asap do it on epic, goal transfers back.

 

Freedom tick 

[20:52:59] Prayer increased by 0.0488 to 14.1867

 

Epic tick

[20:51:52] Prayer increased by 0.0724 to 14.8508

 

Epic has 100% skill tick rate and higher skillgain rate whereas freedom it's well under 40% at higher levels because there's no way to increase the diff of prayer so you'll get 70 prayer 4-5x faster, and prayer is a completely useless skill so you don't really lose much except 2 titles doing it there.

 

or just champ MR/BL then dechamp and get instant 70, but that requires 50 faith. i guess if you did 6x 2s alts you could sermon up to 50 faith in about 2 weeks or so, plus the 2 weeks to get to 30 faith as a follower

can they just make prayer good on freedom instead? it's super bad game design with what your saying

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