Retrograde

W.S.A. Crusader kingdom graphics

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Posted (edited)

I'll give the break down on the situation since I am the person who organised the Art from the start and got people working on it.

So when we founded the PMK we contacted some outside sources who had done Romes previous work and some others who we heard may have a good hand at graphics. Internally within the kingdom we told people that if they wanted to submit a design, go ahead but we're looking for outside help also and the final concept will be voted, this is when Cyberhusky/Anyone contacted me. Anyone was part of the kingdom and was fairly active after having a break from JKC itself, we both use to get on back in the day and I had always called for him to come join us on Chaos, so when he stepped forward he contacted me on steam with original concept, which was a + without a rose and bleach white tabard and some basic design. At this point he was coming forward as a kingdom member "wanting to help" the group so I said great cool, i took that back to the guys in "Top Chat" and things got pointed/wanting altaring. The first thing was the Cross was quite plain so could we add something...So I went and brought a Stock image of a rose and gave that to Cyber, through steam me and cyber spent probably a few hours just altering the design, changing some stripes on the back (never got fixed) and adding "dirt" to the tabard/wagon itself so it wasn't so white - incorporating the rose on the flags, tall banners and wagons etc. Let's just say I probably at this point requested about 25 changes to Cyber, who Also helped me design the actual recruitment page art too and after hassling for so many changes which Anyone was really quick to do, we both worked out the final concept, I had no idea how to do graphic design and of course it makes sense to only have 1 person edit, but it was all the "Top Chats" feedback and we all pitched in the final design. 

Now at this point, it was 100% volunteer, want to make that crystal clear.

After we had the concept and I submitted to Saroman, we got the graphics uploaded but some things didn't go quite right. Just minor glitches but again Anyone cleared these up really fast and we re-submitted a change. After all the hasle I personally felt i put Anyone through, with the constant changes I mentioned to Top Chat that we should Donate Cyber/Anyone some Silver (20 silver) once PMK sales started to thank him for his work because we were all really happy with it and he had made the changes fast/out of his own time, which I let him know, he said there was no need but thank you and sure when that happens that would be nice. 

Well, Cyber quit. Dropped off Chaos completely and we didn't really talk much. Then one day he popped up again like hey man about that donation, can I have it? I was pretty straight and I said hey man, we've just done x deed x resources and we don't have that donation right now, are you playing on chaos again? He was. He came back and he was playing in a different kingdom. I said to him, mate we don't have the Silver but you can take a PMK set, which he agreed to. I told him I wasn't very active right now but it's all made and who should I send it to, the rest will have to be delivered on freedom, nothing got replied. A few months go past. He's now in LOA. He pops up again and asks about his PMK set, I tell him yes it's ready when he is, he's on chaos so he can come get it anytime he wants. Fast forward a few more months, still not collected, so our friend Talor who i believe is mutual between us both pm's me and asks if he can give Cyber a PMK set and I said yes of course he is owed that and I've told him to come grab it anytime he wants, Talor tried to get that PMK set to Anyone but he as far as i know, failed to make arrangements with Talor and Talor could not deliver the PMK set based on this.

Fast forward a few years, add salt, add WO PVP Drama and you got a salty person who has told @Egard(and Egard may add the screenshots) that he's pretty much pursing this because of his personal vendetta against me. Which is fair enough I suppose. 

So that's the back story to all of how we're here but I have a few questions to ask.

1. I own the Rose since I paid for the copyright to be used in Our art, how do you copyright something that I own?
2. If we magically were able to give the silver, what would have stopped him from chasing this today because of personal issues with me?
Sounds like even if we paid him 500 euros, his "case" would still be valid to remove the art? 
3. If he was thinking he was getting paid for his art work, why didn't he await the payment, as anybody would before giving it all to me to submit, not only submit but make amendments for me to resubmit to Art team?
4. Why wait almost 4 years to make a complaint - When clearly you were failing to make arrangements to collect your Donation.

If this is the final choice (as it seems to be) then I am sorry to the players who purchased the Artwork who have been affected. Anyones vendetta doesn't just scope towards me, but instead hits out at all those who invested in the art and added it to their collection. It's very unfortunate that Anyone wouldn't help us deliver his Donation but at the same time as pointed above even if we did it seems like he could have withdrew this art at anytime he wanted. 

I suppose it's lucky he can't Copyright the Crusader theme so don't expect too much of a wild change as I'm sure we can muster up a Cross and still use my Stock rose as the basis - We will make a few designs and will probably allow you to vote for them. 
As @Egardsaid we will work close with the community to bring a great design and if @Saromanand @Retrogradecan contact me through a PM for advice, that would be great.

I may edit this like 500 times because reasons.

Some references I can muster up right now which were used in the case, timestamps do not represent when it was actually asked.

1f8f6ce232452af8b4295c9cbf034464.png

 

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 ^ "hint: it's a joke haha ha ha ...ha"

 

4d9c8798f0335fd139695ddeab44bb5f.png
 

7be1777dd7e3e5611f20867891c26a18.png
 

 

 

Edited by Mclavin

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@RetrogradePlease explain exactly what part of the design is copyrighted according to anyone\cyber, so there is no bulshit when we resubmit the updated design. The graphics themselves like the rose were purchased by Mclovin.

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I would like to voice my concerns that for the 2nd time in roughly a month pmk graphics have been wiped/altered when people paid money for those items/gfx. I would expect the devs to do a much better job of protecting the art items people pay for. This has less to do with the TC issue and more to do with who is running the ship, why are PMK's like WU allowed to change their graphics unannounced? Say I want to buy something from a pmk, what assurances do I have it won't be a white wagon/banner/etc within 3 months? These 2 ugly incidents not only reflect poorly on pmk purchases but also on wurm and the decisions that led here as a whole :( I know wurm can do much better in the future with some forethought as to what is a good business plan and protecting it's customers interests.

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Just now, Pingpong said:

I would like to voice my concerns that for the 2nd time in roughly a month pmk graphics have been wiped/altered when people paid money for those items/gfx. I would expect the devs to do a much better job of protecting the art items people pay for. This has less to do with the TC issue and more to do with who is running the ship, why are PMK's like WU allowed to change their graphics unannounced? Say I want to buy something from a pmk, what assurances do I have it won't be a white wagon/banner/etc within 3 months? These 2 ugly incidents not only reflect poorly on pmk purchases but also on wurm and the decisions that led here as a whole :( I know wurm can do much better in the future with some forethought as to what is a good business plan and protecting it's customers interests.

 

The funny part is, the Wurm University graphics where most likely changed so they ensure they owned the graphics before they attempted to metagame and cause TCs to also have to be changed. No doubt they look so crap because it was a rush job

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4 minutes ago, Pingpong said:

I would like to voice my concerns that for the 2nd time in roughly a month pmk graphics have been wiped/altered when people paid money for those items/gfx. I would expect the devs to do a much better job of protecting the art items people pay for. This has less to do with the TC issue and more to do with who is running the ship, why are PMK's like WU allowed to change their graphics unannounced? Say I want to buy something from a pmk, what assurances do I have it won't be a white wagon/banner/etc within 3 months? These 2 ugly incidents not only reflect poorly on pmk purchases but also on wurm and the decisions that led here as a whole :( I know wurm can do much better in the future with some forethought as to what is a good business plan and protecting it's customers interests.

I agree 100% - previous art should stay within game with the option to right click swap to new version maybe?

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3 minutes ago, Pingpong said:

I would like to voice my concerns that for the 2nd time in roughly a month pmk graphics have been wiped/altered when people paid money for those items/gfx. I would expect the devs to do a much better job of protecting the art items people pay for. This has less to do with the TC issue and more to do with who is running the ship, why are PMK's like WU allowed to change their graphics unannounced? Say I want to buy something from a pmk, what assurances do I have it won't be a white wagon/banner/etc within 3 months? These 2 ugly incidents not only reflect poorly on pmk purchases but also on wurm and the decisions that led here as a whole :( I know wurm can do much better in the future with some forethought as to what is a good business plan and protecting it's customers interests.

Just to add a little bit here(i do agree with what you say) WU's graphic change was handled badly for both the kingdom and the players who own the content(WU was told it would happen "soon" but never given a clear answer as to when until 1 day it was updated) so that case wasnt as much about WU being allowed to change their graphics without warning more a case of the devs in charge not properly communicating when they make changes in general as it affected everyone

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Concering the above posts:

I am leading the design and I will make this design with minimal impact to those who purchased. I agree with your points. For 3-4 years we stood by our designs and did not altar them at all, we didn't want to tear away the trust that those of you put into us by purchasing and actually by doing so, supported us. We will make sure you're happy with the designs and stick to the theme, Crusaders.

It's silly how WU did change their design from Gold to Purple tho, it's a complete makeover which doesn't make sense, it doesn't give you buyers any garuntees of what looks grand one day, looks like a disaster the next.
would be great to have just kept the old design and just uploaded a new one for their kingdom to use? Not sure how it works. 

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Sme do you mean removing the toxicity that is Cyber or the graphics themselves because as far as I can see they changed the graphics for very little good reason

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2 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

Isn't the agreement that once submitted CCAB can do what they want with the images?

https://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/96673-pmk-graphic-templates/

 

Why are they bending to and entertaining such toxicity when they should just be removing it like any other player who seeks to harm the game.

 

Because copyright laws demand as such. If someone owns the copyright and someone not the copyright owner submits it, if CCAB used it without the copyright holders permission, they would be liable in most countries.

 

---

 

Obligatory haha get rekt TC as it is my duty.

 

Now on to the serious stuff. I think this is pretty sad on so many levels. The TC design although not particularily my favorite wagon (Wagons were pretty terrible mind you) was a very sweet design. The tabards were exquisite and rather amazing, and the art overall well made and very identifying of The Crusaders. It was overall a very well thought design that spoke of the identity of a kingdom. Seeing it gone is very sad and a loss to the community as a whole.

 

Regardless of who's at fault here and what was agreed upon, what promises were fulfilled or broken or what this drama consisted of, this is a prime example of what Chaos has become. This is a snowball that has been rolling downhill ever since the MR hacks/metagaming/whateveryoucallit hit Chaos. Since then kingdoms stopped being players and friends enjoying a videogame and became these bloodthristy animals that their goal is not only to win a game, but to devastate their opponent in whichever way they can. The whole pvp community on Chaos has devolved to this. People trying to get people banned, people trying to find to make the game unenjojable for others, or people trying to get opposing kingdom members kicked. Its a war of emotions and drama instead of a war of the battlefield with death tabs and disbanded deeds.

 

Its atrocious. Its what we've brought upon ourselves. 

 

I am not going to point fingers at anyone because despite of what the groups themselves may think, they are both at fault on this, and its already spilling outside of Chaos, now affecting people who have nothing to do with it. Its despicabe that people who could otherwise be friends are doing these things to each other. Why? What's the point? To win?

 

We need to stop doing these things to each other. Its just a game, homies. We're not children. Lets leave the hair pulling behind and go back to bashing each other's heads... in game.

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Posted (edited)

Updated my post above with some screen shots.

But this one is funny, when Cyber was part of the Kingdom he would regulary joke about money, about being paid for a kingdom design. Why joke?

6b656a47a35ee39a2aa2548164f8dd01.png

Edited by Mclavin

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Posted (edited)

You really haven't provided much of anything by way of "evidence" aside from some badly faked discord logs and an easily modifiable personally owned webpage.. For someone who constantly likes to claim that false evidence has been used to slander your poisonous reputation, you clearly don't hold the same standards to yourself when providing your own poorly concocted "proofs".

 

You claim the video I posted above was faked. I'm not sure how that would have been done since your voices are in it. I think your evidence is more fake than my evidence. Please respond.

Edited by whereami

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Posted (edited)

Well the discord image was just to bring @Talorinto the conversation as he was trying to deliver the set for Quicktor/Cyber/Anyone - The date says "Yesterday" because at the time I took the printscreen it was classed as Yesterday.
I just went back and got the same image, so not really sure whats fake about it. 

c636f890f3d818cf9b39c666bd03d9fb.png

 

As for @Talor, it's up to him to come in and confirm that this went down as he is a mutual friend to both parties. I'm sure he'll let you know if that convo between us went down or not.

I just gave the players the back story and details to what lead to this, it was all done through steam so ofc the logs are non existent.
We have a Kingdom forum that uses the WO template, but hey to your logic right now anything I post outside of Wurm Online forum is obviously fake so i don't see how any 'evidence' would please your appetite to eat from this.


I don't really know why you think my "poisonous" reputation is a thing. I've never stolen, hacked or cheated. Don't start bringing your KvK drama here to me pal.
Right now I'm loading a knar to make a sale worth 400 euros so I'll be sure to let them know they're dealing with somebody who has bad rep, despite making over 5k in sales of transfers/goods.


Makes sense that you're one of the first to jump on me tho, the obsession is noted and it gives me a great ego boost.

Please go back to the shadows so I can forget you even exist. Thanks!

@whereamican you please point out my voice in your video with a time stamp please, i am not aware I was in the video but I would love to respond once I know what I am responding to.

Oh wait, why don't you send it to the GM or Enki and He can listen to my voice, which isn't present and he can ban me for not being there. Great. Thanks pal.
Then when you've done all of that can you then go make a new thread and get out of a discussion about PMK textures not about accusations of where Mclovins voice is. Thanks!

Edited by Mclavin

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Posted (edited)

Uhm, I was talking to Egard, the savior and divine crusader of justice and morality. Thanks much. I await the lord's reply. (I never claimed your voice was in that video)

All I said to you is that your evidence is crap and I think it's a lot harder to CGI render fake ingame footage with discord audio than it is to edit client-side HTML of a webpage. But you seem to think differently. 🤔

Edited by whereami

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Posted (edited)

No you weren't you edited your post first of all and you made no mention of egard, it's a direct reply to me and the video I called fake then you just said "your voices" are in it. Where is my voice? 

I have no answers to the questions you are asking me, not egard, but feel free to go back and edit for a 4th time and mention egard with your questions. 
But I would advice you to instead take your video and take your questions to Enki or a GM and ask the people who can answer what clearly seems to be a very big issue you seem to have?
I'm sure you'll find the answer to be something along the lines of: We received a ticket, we came, we investigated a bug discovered, reported and left.
Don't quote me. I wasn't there :) And everything I say is a lie because of my reputation so *shrugs* so why even ask me :) 
 

Quote

it's a lot harder to CGI render fake ingame footage with discord audio than it is to edit client-side HTML of a webpage. But you seem to think differently.

It's easier for me to put in fake audio to a video footage and cut it short by 4 hours than go edit the client side HTML of a webpage because i have no HTML experience and don't know how to even get into that.
So yeah I guess with my knowledge of CGI and doctoring audio and the possibilities, I am of course sceptical of anything i watch as you are of any website you visit.

Back to the topic. Reporting anything off topic from here tbh.

Edited by Mclavin

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You put up a pretty good charade I gotta say. Egard cant man up and step to the plate cause he has literally, NO ammunition - Good call on having his boi step in to deny everything.

I won't bother correcting myself for someone who can't gather context from a sentence. If it doesn't apply to you then zipface and move on eh? Second sentence clearly wasn't addressed to you since it doesn't apply; or are you trying to tell us something?

 

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Posted (edited)

If you had ammunition I suggest stop firing on a thread called wsa crusader kingdom graphics and take it to the gms who will deal with your case, because you clearly have a stockpile of ammo right now. 
Or do you just like to publically accuse people like you just tried to do me then imply that it wasn't applied towards them?

 

Go to the GM's why are you talking. As Ice said you can even reproduce for them the exploit from practice of using it.

Stop derailing the issue on this thread. I'll happily make you a new 1.

Edited by Mclavin

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1 minute ago, whereami said:

You put up a pretty good charade I gotta say. Egard cant man up and step to the plate cause he has literally, NO ammunition - Good call on having his boi step in to deny everything.

I won't bother correcting myself for someone who can't gather context from a sentence. If it doesn't apply to you then zipface and move on eh? Second sentence clearly wasn't addressed to you since it doesn't apply; or are you trying to tell us something?

 

I think you and the rest of your kingdom (MR-c) have done more harm on chaos than any kingdom. I've heard horror stories about things MR-c done from some of your previous members, stuff that's so controversial it's amazing how some of you slipped through the cracks and still are able to play. Exploiting, metagaming, IP checks, calling people spies because you don't like them, telling people to blacklist certain freedom merchants, Red being just a terrible person and extremely toxic. There is a lot more that meets the eye with MR-c, I'm happy you're gone and other kingdoms can actually participate on chaos now. Emoo reinvented himself maybe you should try it and grow up!

 

That group in that video wasn't even Crusader's. The people who exploited and cheated were perma banned. End of the story. Can we move on please, you've offered nothing but 3-4 year old drama and derails.

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I think this has been open long enough, it's clear the discussion is long past the plans the crusaders have for their replacement. 

 

Saroman and myself will work with the crusaders to ensure their replacement graphics are in as soon as possible. 

 

It's disappointing it's come to this as I had hoped mediation would work, but in the end the best we can do from here is move on. 

 

We will be locking this thread and performing clean up from now. Thank you for your time. 

 

 

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