Why is transmutation so horrible?

[Roccandil 959]

I've got 90+ skill and 90+ QL juice (and a 90+ QL amphora, for good measure); why are fluid outcomes so wildly bad? It's maddening watching work just get thrown away by a slot machine.

 

I get that transmutation is powerful and should be difficult, but why waste my playtime in such a petty, frustrating way? That just tells me I should be playing something else to actually have fun. Why choose -that- game design?

 

I'd much prefer a high, even cost that I could examine up front and decide if I wanted to pursue it (an average of juice QL and skill?), but this process of mindlessly throwing more mats at the problem just encourages me to rage-quit.

 

I'm increasingly persuaded that the developers don't really understand how to have fun.

[Retrograde 12,013]

Are you using high ql lumps? It's not too bad for me and I'm at 90 skill too

[Roccandil 959]

I tried both ways, and couldn't tell a difference. I also had a bit of old low-QL juice stashed (40-ish), and I immediately got high QL fluid when I finished it off.

 

Basically, the game is just telling me to throw sheer quantity at the problem (and how many players have the time, mats, and training to do proper statistical analysis of the RNG?).

 

I'd love it if fluid QL were a hard average of juice, lump, and NS skill: that would be awesome. Maybe throw in amphora QL for good measure.

 

While I'm at it, I forgot part two of my complaint: why make me jump through barrel hoops applying the liquid? Why not just apply what's needed, and let me have the remainder? As it is, with the wild RNG, I'm going crazy trying to match QL and quantity to tiles to avoid as much wastage as possible.

 

 

[Milkdrop 278]

hm... I have a hard time to follow this.

 

My NS Skill sits at 65 or so, I used 50-60ql lumps and 40-50ql juice.

I got the random 70-80ql liquid, but in the end I just spamed my trash mats away that I would have never used for anything else anyhow but skilling and made 12 transmuted tiles (4x clay, 4x peat, 4x tar) within 4-5 hours.

Considering how fast this went compared to other things in Wurm, I would have regreted using anything high QL on that task. ?

 

I guess it makes more sense to go for high QL stuff if you plan to deliver the liquid to someone, as you will need a lot less but for my personal usage it was ok.

 

Maybe the min-maxer within me died, no clue.

[Angelklaine 4,266]

I dont know what you guys complaining about. I just throw money at @Archaedand call it a day. Grind your wallet skill and you're set. Easy peasy.

[MrGARY 12,421]

Is there any mechanic in the game other than epics skillgain system that you actually like and don't insult the game/devs over?

 

I made liquids to get rid of like 150 peat tiles on epic with 55 skill and then made more to put a 2x2 of each resource in its spot and I didn't have any issues for what it is, even without considering what it is tbh

[Finnn 3,302]

IMO u had a big project in mind... and rng played a trick on you.. if it's for a tile or two.. or .. such small amount.... it's quite easy to convert a tile into anything... peat does take it's good worth of low ql coal.. but anything else is ridiculously cheap to turn a tile into something else(well.... I've only turned tiles to resource.. never had to remove such...)

[Roccandil 959]

36 minutes ago, MrGARY said:

Is there any mechanic in the game other than epics skillgain system that you actually like and don't insult the game/devs over?

 

The game (and devs) are insulting me, and not only me. This is simply one instance. Perhaps the quintessential example is newbies failing to make kindling and start a campfire.

 

Punishing players for playing is horrible game design. You can blame the players if you want, but if a game isn't fun, it isn't a good game. I get the impression Notch understood this. Compare Minecraft's playerbase with Wurm's.

 

I get the impression that all I'm doing is standing up and saying what many people who have left silently have felt.

 

[Chakron 1,025]

Posts in this thread have confirmed that your perception was incorrect. We don’t have a silent issue with it. If you find it difficult you should make a post in the suggestions forum.

 

Taking it personally and saying the devs are insulting you makes it difficult to take you seriously.

 

Notch made a lot of mistakes when he was a Wurm dev, but most people seem to have forgotten about that or weren’t around for it.

[LordLouis 850]

92 Ns, 60ql juices, 10ql mats to clear them out, I rarely have a low quality tranny come out. Actually get better results with low ql mats than higher ones. Seems you got served with some bad rng indeed, but isn't that the nature of the game? 

[Angelklaine 4,266]

1 hour ago, Roccandil said:

 

The game (and devs) are insulting me, and not only me. This is simply one instance. Perhaps the quintessential example is newbies failing to make kindling and start a campfire.

 

Punishing players for playing is horrible game design. You can blame the players if you want, but if a game isn't fun, it isn't a good game. I get the impression Notch understood this. Compare Minecraft's playerbase with Wurm's.

 

I get the impression that all I'm doing is standing up and saying what many people who have left silently have felt.

 

To be honest, there is nothing wrong with the game per se. You just hate rng. This doesn't make the game flawed, it just means you don't like the mechanic. Many people enjoy the way transmutation works to the point they do it themselves regularly and as a business.

 

This is a graphical MUD game. Mud games are generally based on RNG to determine the result of actions (dice rolls). Its the nature of the beast and most people who play MUD games enjoy it. You playing a MUD and complaining about the RNG is like someone eating a lemon and then complaining about its bitterness.

 

[Roccandil 959]

1 hour ago, Chakron said:

Posts in this thread have confirmed that your perception was incorrect. We don’t have a silent issue with it. If you find it difficult you should make a post in the suggestions forum.

 

Of course not: after all, you're the ones still playing the game. The silent ones I speak of tried it and left.

 

1 hour ago, Chakron said:

Taking it personally and saying the devs are insulting you makes it difficult to take you seriously.

 

So be it. The game randomly nullifies work I've put into it; I consider that insulting and petty.

 

1 hour ago, Chakron said:

 

Notch made a lot of mistakes when he was a Wurm dev, but most people seem to have forgotten about that or weren’t around for it. 

 

If you want to focus on mistakes, so be it, but he clearly got something right. Many, many people enjoy Minecraft: he made something fun for them. Need I point out that Minecraft is a sandbox where you gather, craft, and build?

 

Clearly, Notch learned something from his time in Wurm, and I don't think it's a stretch to say he learned a great deal to -not- do.

 

1 hour ago, Angelklaine said:

To be honest, there is nothing wrong with the game per se. You just hate rng. This doesn't make the game flawed, it just means you don't like the mechanic. Many people enjoy the way transmutation works to the point they do it themselves regularly and as a business.

 

This is a graphical MUD game. Mud games are generally based on RNG to determine the result of actions (dice rolls). Its the nature of the beast and most people who play MUD games enjoy it. You playing a MUD and complaining about the RNG is like someone eating a lemon and then complaining about its bitterness.

 

 

RNG certainly has its uses, and I don't mind it when used well, but throwing away people's time and effort with the roll of a dice is bad business, unless you're a casino.

 

The truly maddening aspect for me is that I know it's completely unnecessary. From kindling to transmutation fluid, all you need for balance is the following:

 

- Time

- Materials

 

That's it. Scale accordingly. If something needs to be hard, make it take more time, or more mats.

 

Wurm, however, randomly wastes players' time and materials, making the process frustrating and unfun, and that drives people away, for no good reason. The process can be lengthy and costly, without being frustrating, and ideally the process should hook people, being fun in itself.

 

I -hate- hearing about new players who are frustrated they can't make kindling. That design decision is horrible. If need be, make it take more wood or more time, but -never- punish a new player for playing, never tell them they wasted their time, never tell them they should be playing something other than Wurm.

 

The rest of Wurm simply compounds on that error, leading to the extremely small playerbase we see now. And it's entirely unnecessary.

 

Wurm could have had a significant percentage of the Minecraft population, but bad design decisions and the people defending and making excuses for them have kept that from happening.

[Ayes 3,715]

2 hours ago, LordLouis said:

Actually get better results with low ql mats than higher ones

I have generally found this to be true in creation success rates, that when the Skill itself is too much lower than the material qualities that failures will be greater. In particular with concrete creation with low NS and Alchemy skill. So in these instances I attempt to use lower QL mats. The problem then becomes that I have a harder time producing lower QL mats because the other skills to create those are much higher. Gotcha! at work here. Those responding here seem to have very high NS skill though so I am a bit surprised that the problem still persists.

 

=Ayes=

[Ayes 3,715]

3 hours ago, MrGARY said:

Is there any mechanic in the game other than epics skillgain system that you actually like and don't insult the game/devs over?

I would have to agree with a lot of the points that Roccandil is making in this thread. Although he may be short on tact in expressing them, at heart they are valid objections which can lead to the dissatisfactions with the game that he indicated. Add onto that he makes other threads in a similar negative critique of game functions and some (points at you) might become impatient with his pointing these things out. If there are any "insulting" comments as you suggest they don't stand out to me as being intended to that effect. I think also it would be hard to deny that these issues are frustrating parts of the game experience, so I don't think that players should be discouraged from pointing them out.

 

=Ayes=

[Angelklaine 4,266]

Roccandil has every right to show his displeasure for the system. Many players wonder what reasoning does the devs have to include rng nearly everywhere. These players simply do not understand the nature of Wurm. They see the pretty landscapes, their characters, they deeds, and think of your average mmo. Wurm is not your average mmo, its a Graphical MUD with mmo elements added to it.

 

Have you ever wondered why Wurm has so many actions described by text? Why is this actions tab cannot be closed or removed? Why does everything, from imping to leading to attacking, to creating has to be described by text? That's because its an integral part of MUDs. MUDs always have the text element present.

 

You know what else is essential to MUDs? Rng. The glorified slot machine effect. You roll a dice and you get a result. It doesn't have to make sense. Its just a roll of the dice.  And that is crucial in a MUD game.

 

Its okay to not like the system, but accusing the devs of "insulting you" is not only unfair, but its inane and unjustified. Its like accusing the owner of a casino of insulting you with the randomness of their slot machines. Like, what? I am sure @Buddadidnt sit down at his desk on some smokey backroom with his dev cronies plotting to offend you. Give me a break.

 

Love it. Hate it. Wurm is what it is. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Ayes 3,715]

As I stated in effect, at times the OP uses poor choices of words or replies flippantly to another in response. He does not carefully gauge his comments so that the words within them do not allow others to divert to them in an attempt to invalidate his points made. To me this does not lessen the validity of them but just points to the fact that because there is no logical counter to them others may at times attempt to nullify them with points not pertinent. This then is the fault of the individual who takes this approach, not the OP.

 

As for the RNG aspects of this game something confuses me. If there is a percentage chance of success listed then this RNG is being adjusted by the game (Devs) somehow isn't it? So if the RNG can be set on some percentage basis of success then it can be adjusted either up or down. If this is the case then the points that the OP made are possible to tinker with to give various players more satisfaction with playing the game depending on their viewpoints. To me what you seem to be saying is that because you accept the way the game functions on the points the OP made within this topic that he should too without objections put forth.

 

Basically in closing, all you are attempting to do is stifling him from expressing his opinions because they are different from your own with your "inane" comment that conflagulates into a situation of the Devs "plotting" against him, which I was expressing in concept in the first paragraph above. Simply put, yeah MuD slinging at the OP. Are you not then doing the same thing to him that you condemn him for.

 

=Ayes=

[Niki 2,278]

I think the amount of produce you need could be lowered but keep the difficulty. High end crafts are nice.

[Roccandil 959]

5 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

You know what else is essential to MUDs? Rng. The glorified slot machine effect. You roll a dice and you get a result. It doesn't have to make sense. Its just a roll of the dice.  And that is crucial in a MUD game. 

 

Its okay to not like the system, but accusing the devs of "insulting you" is not only unfair, but its inane and unjustified. Its like accusing the owner of a casino of insulting you with the randomness of their slot machines.

 

The idea that Wurm being a MUD somehow justifies pushing away customers, I find baffling. Your customer-blaming is unfair, inane, and unjustified.

 

Furthermore, this vaunted "MUD-RNG" is inherently superficial: Wurm doesn't need it. Opportunity cost and diminishing returns are the critical functionality, and they can be implemented without any RNG.

 

I've attempted to describe this before, but Wurm's strength is the sheer number of interesting activities I can pursue:

 

- A mission

- A hunting trip to increase a weapon skill

- Building on deed

- Improving my tools

- Organizing stuff

- Grinding a skill

- Working on goals

- Gathering mats

- Raiding

 

And so on. That's the opportunity cost handled: I can only do one thing at a time.

 

Diminishing returns build on opportunity cost. Imping my tools to 99 QL, for instance, should take a long time, enough that I could do many, many other useful things instead. The best discouragement to attempting such a long project should not be dread of the process itself, it should be the awareness of all the other fun things I could be doing.

 

And that's all Wurm needs for balance. Applying a veneer of frustrating RNG to gameplay is cutting off one's nose to spite one's face; it's penny-wise/pound-foolish. Whatever justifications may be leveled in its defense, it has clearly hurt Wurm.

 

A newbie should never fail to make kindling, or start a fire.

[Roccandil 959]

4 hours ago, Ayes said:

As I stated in effect, at times the OP uses poor choices of words or replies flippantly to another in response. He does not carefully gauge his comments so that the words within them do not allow others to divert to them in an attempt to invalidate his points made.

 

FYI, I'm optimizing for neither persuasion or politeness. I simply decided when joining this forum that I was done suffering the inherent rudeness of the internet.

 

Anyone who wants a reasonable, polite discussion, I'll give them one, but anyone steeped in snark will get it right back.

[Oblivionnreaver 5,174]

scared of people using them to grief is my guess

 

natural subs is just a horrible skill all around

[Nappy 1,369]

@RoccandilYou are playing on serenity for this testing right? I think PVP servers have mechanics in place to make transmutation of tiles much, much harder then Freedom/Non-pvp servers. That might explain why some people seem to say it's not too bad compared to your experiences. 

 

Have you considered this aspect?

 

~Nappy

[Oblivionnreaver 5,174]

chaos is disabled entirely epic is way harder

 

• Transmutation liquid on Epic has a higher difficulty, and requires more material to create.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Oblivionnreaver

[armyskin 930]

10 hours ago, Roccandil said:

 

Compare Minecraft's playerbase with Wurm's.

 

Children vs adults. Sounds like Minecraft is calling for you.

[GoldFever 299]

The way to handle the RNG with tile transmutation is to lower the batch size, that way one bad roll won't kill you and require a whole replacement set of mats.

 

I have prepared liquid for a lot of tiles and my normal approach is to just do 100 mats at a time and take what comes.  However, if it is a bit dicey if I have enough mats, I always lower the batch size to 25 or something.  I never worry about the ql of the mats and just use whatever I can get my hands on.

 

While I think the OP has some valid points about the New Player Experience, tile transmutations is very much an advanced procedure and as such I have no problem with how it works.

[Angelklaine 4,266]

2 hours ago, Roccandil said:

 

The idea that Wurm being a MUD somehow justifies pushing away customers, I find baffling. Your customer-blaming is unfair, inane, and unjustified.

 

Furthermore, this vaunted "MUD-RNG" is inherently superficial: Wurm doesn't need it. Opportunity cost and diminishing returns are the critical functionality, and they can be implemented without any RNG.

 

I've attempted to describe this before, but Wurm's strength is the sheer number of interesting activities I can pursue:

 

- A mission

- A hunting trip to increase a weapon skill

- Building on deed

- Improving my tools

- Organizing stuff

- Grinding a skill

- Working on goals

- Gathering mats

- Raiding

 

And so on. That's the opportunity cost handled: I can only do one thing at a time.

 

Diminishing returns build on opportunity cost. Imping my tools to 99 QL, for instance, should take a long time, enough that I could do many, many other useful things instead. The best discouragement to attempting such a long project should not be dread of the process itself, it should be the awareness of all the other fun things I could be doing.

 

And that's all Wurm needs for balance. Applying a veneer of frustrating RNG to gameplay is cutting off one's nose to spite one's face; it's penny-wise/pound-foolish. Whatever justifications may be leveled in its defense, it has clearly hurt Wurm.

 

A newbie should never fail to make kindling, or start a fire.

You seem to misunderstand me. RNG on a MUD is not something you just take away and tweak. RNG is inherent in a MUD game. Think back to the early stages of games such as Dungeon's and Dragons. That's the birthplace of MUD games. MUD games are simply a step ahead - they are played on computers instead of pen and paper.

 

If you take D&D and remove the dice rolling, then you are left with storytelling: A group of people sit around a table and tell interactive stories. There's currently a game style that exemplifies that: Telltale Games. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with that, but in essence, by that point it stops being a MUD game.

 

You need to understand what the developers are trying to accomplish when they develop their game. A game won't do a 180 and stop being what it is in favor of something else. Wurm developers carter to the genere and thus is why everything is RNG based. RNG is part of the MUD genere, and thus part of Wurm. 

2 hours ago, Roccandil said:

A newbie should never fail to make kindling, or start a fire.

Why? Have you ever tried to make kindling with a knife in real life? How about started a fire with it? Maybe the player is using the bark of a live and wet log with sap instead of drywood to make his kindling. Maybe he can't get the spark to light because they don't know how to use the flint and steel. I still remember trying to light my first cigar with a zippo lighter. It wasn't easy. I didn't know how to use it until I was thaught by my friend. These are the things RNG and skill represent in the game.

 

Try looking at it from a different perspective.