Niki

This game is flawed! Balance PVP.

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Awh jeez, you mean I need more things to be viable in PvP??

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3 minutes ago, Vomusu said:

Wait what? Why dont you just buy the salve for 50c and apply it to your weapon? Why dont you cast the spells on us? Why don't you use jewelry? Why dont you tangleweave? Just because you don't use the new mechanics means they have to be removed? This thread is so stupid i cant stand it. You just cant adapt so you want everything removed.
 

if you get nuked from range with no way to protect yourself.. that's stupid.

- You shouldn't be forced to be a priest to pvp

- You shouldn't be forced to bring a priest(alt) to pvp

all understand that voip is a thing and groups communicate in 'real time' to get certain things done. 

But we also know that when something it *broken* a bit of glue helps to fix things up..

I don't know or care how the matter is in pvp/chaos or real pvp servers EPIC, but.. I'm here to mention it's dumb that nonpriests suck dps-wise compared to priests when it comes to fighting abilities.

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2 minutes ago, Finnn said:

I don't know or care how the matter is in pvp/chaos or real pvp servers EPIC, but.. I'm here to mention it's dumb that nonpriests suck dps-wise compared to priests when it comes to fighting abilities.

 

The thing is that you don't suck dps-wise. When someone is casting, it's not instant - you have time to run or get up close and personal and not get attacked during the timer. And if you get close, you can smash priest while he can do nothing if he/she wants to finish the cast. Moreover, priest will not punch back during the cast, so for the time of casting, they are a harmless, sitting duck that needs to be protected in order to do anything.

 

And if having priests in pvp would be bad, Wurm would be such melee combat oriented, let's just make Vynora priests, put all enchants on her and remove others because battle priests would become obsolete.

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12 minutes ago, Niki said:

Please stay constructive, take stuff like that to skirmishes. Who says were not using spells/salves/jewelry?


I dont know, seems like you're not. It's not like all these things only work for one kingdom. You can do everything we do, and I just dont see it. I havent seen anybody 'drop in seconds from spells', I have never been hit by a spell by any of you other than one fireheart in the last battle and some firepillars. I just dont understand why you want everything removed instead of trying to counter it. Maybe at the beginning the spells were a little bit too strong but you got them nerfed. One thing I can agree on is that some of the spells have too much range, that should probably get changed, but blocking spells with a shield, seriously? Thats a huge -1 from me.

[20:51:54] You entered through the portal to Wurm on day of Awakening, week 2 of the starfall of the Digging, 994. That's 3690 days, 22 hours and 1 minute ago.

And yeah i guess im not playing this game long enough to understand it lol.


 

Quote

if you get nuked from range with no way to protect yourself.. that's stupid.

- You shouldn't be forced to be a priest to pvp 

- You shouldn't be forced to bring a priest(alt) to pvp


You have a lot of ways to protect yourself.
You were always forced to be a priest to pvp. Now actually the bonuses have ben reduced, have you ever been hit by a 25% damage bonus priest with an adamantine weapon? I guess not. The damage done by inferno is nothing compared to that since you can pretty much only get a good bit of damage one time, after that because of the spell resistance the spells do nothing. With the flat damage buff you could just maul your enemies to oblivion, and spam LoF on your way since it couldnt be interrupted pretty much by anything other than a shieldbash or damage, which is not sustainable.

Edited by Vomusu

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Also another point I forgot, Finnn - if you are not a priest, you have to go through a long way to get pvp ready. 

Get full Sotg, get weapon and fight skills, get decent body stats so that you don't drop in two hits when someone who has played the game for year targets you with a adamantine huge axe with 10k bt they were able to grind up 1000 times.

 

Instead, come, priest up, pray/sermon up your faith while training fight and weapon skills and be useful during fight due to being able to heal or cast spells at a distance while not having to stop old player huge axes with your face. How does it sound if I put it this way instead of saying how bad priests are. 

Doesn't that sound good for a player who is new to pvp?

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@Gildi

Can you get 'up close and personal' on several people?  Is that wise decision?

Can you repel the attack otherwise if you're not a priest or have an alt to cast whatever on you? 

13 minutes ago, Gildi said:

 

The thing is that you don't suck dps-wise. When someone is casting, it's not instant - you have time to run or get up close and personal and not get attacked during the timer. And if you get close, you can smash priest while he can do nothing if he/she wants to finish the cast. Moreover, priest will not punch back during the cast, so for the time of casting, they are a harmless, sitting duck that needs to be protected in order to do anything.

 

And if having priests in pvp would be bad, Wurm would be such melee combat oriented, let's just make Vynora priests, put all enchants on her and remove others because battle priests would become obsolete.

So.. *magic towers* that can move and have guards, "does not sound op at all", when you add the part that you can not "shield" vs several hits.. and they are most likely going to nuke you at once.. and it's dumb to attack the priest/s with the guarding party, something needs to happen to make the fighting... a fighting... and not an execution.

 

I don't mind priests or the way they fight at all, all I say is.. if you have a powerful attack, give the target a way to counter, if multiple attacks are possible - think of some solution to that also, when it comes to full loot, you can't just let people nuke everybody in an instant with no way to fight back, pvp will die within a month or 2-3 .. when people learn there's such nonsense at play./I don't know if that's the case, it just sounds like that from what I read so far./

--edit

@Gildiok gildi.. imagine you have bob and tom, and bob is a priest.. tom is a nobody(nonpriest character).. both have identical body stats/weapons/fighting skills and armors.. who's better equipped in a fight? Who can buff up and cause a little extra in the fight or just before it have started?

We're not talking about 'fair', just equal chances, which is kind of the same thing here.. but.. the thing is.. you're just better 'geared' to pvp and fight if you're a priest, doubt there's a 2nd opinion.
Long ago priests had lower body stats to compensate and keep the glass-cannons what they were, now there's no difference in the abilities no balance in the powers, just recent cooldowns and resistances.

Edited by Finnn

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1 minute ago, Finnn said:

 

I don't mind priests or the way they fight at all, all I say is.. if you have a powerful attack, give the target a way to counter, if multiple attacks are possible - think of some solution to that also

 

The thing is, that there is already such thing - resistances. If they all nuke you with one spell, only the first will be powerfull.

 

2 minutes ago, Finnn said:

when it comes to full loot,

 

"Full loot" - every fight is a res stone lottery, so we are not talking about a full loot game. The game by design gave people means of defending their items from others. Not going to discuss this as it is tied to people just having to spend more money to gain advantage in the game and could be a separate topic.

 

3 minutes ago, Finnn said:

Can you get 'up close and personal' on several people?  Is that wise decision?

 

Yeah, in a fight when someone casts, they get targetted so that they have to move or if you hit them, get them interrupted in their casting.

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2 minutes ago, Finnn said:

Can you repel the attack otherwise if you're not a priest or have an alt to cast whatever on you?


Nobody uses alts to cast anything, and yes - you can damage your opponent, shield bash him, get out of his line of sight, or get out of the range. The priest cant move while casting so you can just go around the corner and he won't do anything to you.

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As the game currently stands, being a priest is another pvp requirement. You don't need to become one, the same as you don't need to be PoI and can go PoK. It's just another arm you have to cut off if you want to be relevant in pvp fights.

Edited by williamwierd

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Been a interesting thread, some points should be copied over to the priest feedback. 

 

@Gildilike your point of wearing a shield to ride over a fire pillar, good point, I'd just have it so you never ignore pillars tbh, I like the fact they are useful now.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Finnn said:

@Gildiok gildi.. imagine you have bob and tom, and bob is a priest.. tom is a nobody(nonpriest character).. both have identical body stats/weapons/fighting skills and armors.. who's better equipped in a fight? Who can buff up and cause a little extra in the fight or just before it have started?

We're not talking about 'fair', just equal chances, which is kind of the same thing here.. but.. the thing is.. you're just better 'geared' to pvp and fight if you're a priest, doubt there's a 2nd opinion.
Long ago priests had lower body stats to compensate and keep the glass-cannons what they were, now there's no difference in the abilities no balance in the powers, just recent cooldowns and resistances.

 

1. Right now it's not about priests buffing up - the most buffs you are getting is from tomes, which are not connected to priesthood at all. 

2. Chances are equal - I Bob wants to cast a spell, he has to stand there 5-10 seconds while Tom can try to attack him however he wants because Bob is NOT attacking during the cast. He is not doing anything and if he fails to channel the spell, gets interrupted or even moves a little bit, he will loose this casting time with no possibility to recover it

3. With what accounts go into pvp right now, it does not matter what stats you have - they are already high and noone will be making a priest and trying to grind him up. It is usually people who are pvp ready and want to have another advantage on their side who priest up.

 

This whole discussion is more of a "we made poor choices during the preparation time for this upcoming update and want to have them rolled back" other than really wanting to have good impactfull changes into the game.

 

And I will state it once again - priests were, are and will be an obvious advantage to the group that has them. Be it in the old days, when Fo and Sme priests could spam LoF and heal up people from near death or having someone with pillars that can get someone into hurting status and let you chase them down easier if your enemy is just running away the moment you get close.

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58 minutes ago, Vomusu said:

And you're really saying being a priest is a 'new' meta? Not so long ago 99% of chaos was Smea since it was so OP. Back then if you weren't a priest you were dragging your kingdom down. You had 25% bonus damage and all the spells you'd ever need.

 

yeah that's why I wrote a core thesis for a priest overhaul which relied on removing player gods and making template gods more desirable, buffing useless things and balancing strong things until it sat for like a year or more before sindusk came and turned it into reality but with his own twists and player gods, since no one else was doing it.  I was against overpowered priests then, priest overhaul didn't turn out as my own opinion preferred and I'm still against it now.  It just went from a single priest being op to many spells being too strong across most priests.  It's just funny because back when hots was able to use lib to her fullest extent of her abilities and obliterate people with spells, they all defended it saying there were options to counter it.  Player mentalities don't really change, they defend anything they are able to use to their severe advantage.  But back then no one had to make sure they had the right armor to defend against the spell choice of the day, and use the right jewlery to counter the right spells, and use a spell to counter a spell, while x many other things too.  Things are getting too complicated

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3 minutes ago, MrGARY said:

It just went from a single priest being op to many spells being too strong across most priests. 

 

Having one priest overpowered or as only preferred option was always horrible. Made only 1 meta, made players play into it or get driven off of server. Right now with different spells having some power, you have options, possibilities to tweak and adjust however you want.

This is the beauty of pvp, for once, we don't need to have 20 Sme priests, you can choose a diety and get some interesting combo.

 

3 minutes ago, MrGARY said:

But back then no one had to make sure they had the right armor to defend against the spell choice of the day, and use the right jewlery to counter the right spells, and use a spell to counter a spell, while x many other things too.  Things are getting too complicated

 

Again, I do not see how having some possibility of not getting the right resistances, some uncertainty is bad. It adds some spice to the game and make people use different priest to cast this as well as different skill to make this stuff. 

In the past it was "get plate armor, a maul and get going". Now it's "get whatever the hell you want and juggle those weapons depending on who stands in front of you"

 

8 minutes ago, MrGARY said:

Player mentalities don't really change

 

Exactly, it happens on both sides. Some people will always be for changes whereas others will try to bash them or bend them to their will instead of letting the game play out. 

Those changes are not being proposed after the live game went on for long, first requests to change were after the 1st fight certain group lost.

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23 minutes ago, Niki said:

Please stay constructive, take stuff like that to skirmishes. Who says were not using spells/salves/jewelry?

And yet...

 

1 hour ago, Niki said:

You can think what you want. It's almost a meme at this point. I know for sure I'm likely better than most players in Wurm who only play Wurm. I've played competitively in other games such as mythic raiding in WoW, raiding in FFXIV, FPS games, LoL etc. I have twitch reflexes developed from these games. My survivability speaks for itself. I also have a disability which I'm not getting into that limits me immensely. I have industry experience with gaming and mmorpgs. I think spell blocking is the best advice to the devs I can give. Doesn't have to be 100% either!

Even tho I have not criticized you at all you went all defensive assuming I did/would.

 

The reason why I am against shield blocking spells is because casting a spell, unlike melee, is a conscious act that has to be initiated, costs favor, and already has many restrictions it has to go through. Adding the chance to negate a spell just because you have a shield means yet another layer of protection the spell has to go through to land, which has the potential of making a spells useless. If you have, say, a 33% chance to block (real 33% not a Wurm 33% ;)) then that would mean 1 in 3 offensive spells are useless, and the remainder 2 have to bypass any other possible defenses (including interrupts, jewelry enchants, tangleweave, line of sight, corresponding resistances and everything else) none of which apply to melee attacks, which by the way, happen every few seconds (in other words are automatically spammed).

 

Yet if you make the chance to block extremely low, you are making shields vs spells pointless, and that would make this a futile argument.

 

Instead I propose fixing shield bash. It allows non priests to bash someone into a stun and interrupting their spell cast. A priest cant move while casting so all you have to do is run to him and bash him to stop his spell. This requires an action on the enemy part and not an automatic check. It also gives the possibility to work more often than a 33% or a 25% or a 10% spell shield block resistance, with multiple players bashing the same priest near guaranteeing to interrupt. It also gives a counter to purely defensive spells other than just offensive ones (such as LoF). The cost is you need to pay attention, and its limited to how many times you can bash in a certain amount of time. 

 

Lazy mechanics such as reducing damage output and giving automatic shield blocks are that, lazy, and can come with many unforseen consequences while not requiring any skill on the player's part. They risk unbalancing the spell casting and nerfing it into oblivion just as it was before, where a spell did neglible damage to even an npc enough to never be used. I rather see more tactics that can potentially turn the tide of a fight by the skill of the players rather than just a dumb rng mechanic that requires no skill at all.

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6 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

And yet...

 

Even tho I have not criticized you at all you went all defensive assuming I did/would.

 

The reason why I am against shield blocking spells is because casting a spell, unlike melee, is a conscious act that has to be initiated, costs favor, and already has many restrictions it has to go through. Adding the chance to negate a spell just because you have a shield means yet another layer of protection the spell has to go through to land, which has the potential of making a spells useless. If you have, say, a 33% chance to block (real 33% not a Wurm 33% ;)) then that would mean 1 in 3 offensive spells are useless, and the remainder 2 have to bypass any other possible defenses (including interrupts, jewelry enchants, tangleweave, line of sight, corresponding resistances and everything else) none of which apply to melee attacks, which by the way, happen every few seconds (in other words are automatically spammed).

 

Yet if you make the chance to block extremely low, you are making shields vs spells pointless, and that would make this a futile argument.

 

Instead I propose fixing shield bash. It allows non priests to bash someone into a stun and interrupting their spell cast. A priest cant move while casting so all you have to do is run to him and bash him to stop his spell. This requires an action on the enemy part and not an automatic check. It also gives the possibility to work more often than a 33% or a 25% or a 10% spell shield block resistance, with multiple players bashing the same priest near guaranteeing to interrupt. It also gives a counter to purely defensive spells other than just offensive ones (such as LoF). The cost is you need to pay attention, and its limited to how many times you can bash in a certain amount of time. 

 

Lazy mechanics such as reducing damage output and giving automatic shield blocks are that, lazy, and can come with many unforseen consequences while not requiring any skill on the player's part. They risk unbalancing the spell casting and nerfing it into oblivion just as it was before, where a spell did neglible damage to even an npc enough to never be used. I rather see more tactics that can potentially turn the tide of a fight by the skill of the players rather than just a dumb rng mechanic that requires no skill at all.

Shield bash improvements are needed, I still think spell blocking even if it's a small amount. I never said completely immune, should fix the soul strength issue. 

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1 minute ago, Niki said:

Shield bash improvements are needed, I still think spell blocking even if it's a small amount. I never said completely immune, should fix the soul strength issue. 

But we are going to get blocks on friendly spells as well, as in you have to take your shield down while people archer you down in order to get full heals, right?

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1 minute ago, Niki said:

Shield bash improvements are needed, I still think spell blocking even if it's a small amount. I never said completely immune, should fix the soul strength issue. 

I dont even think a little bit of shield blocking is good. Pvp was pretty much automated before the priest update. You could keep a second account chipping bricks back at the capital on your second monitor while you auto attacked everyone and casted an occasional LoF. Now if you try doing that and dont pay attention to your message window/main screen, you get a fire pillar to the face. No shaving require after that.

 

Shield bash I think is the solution to this issue. Fix shield bash to actually be more reliable and all these problems will go away. Plus its not a one sided thing. It would block damage spells, but will also block defensive ones such as LoF. A true anti priest measure for non priests. Otherwise priests will revert back to the LoF days and still be on top.

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13 minutes ago, Gildi said:

But we are going to get blocks on friendly spells as well, as in you have to take your shield down while people archer you down in order to get full heals, right?

You'd tangleweave the heal, it's a 15 second cast.

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1 minute ago, Niki said:

You'd tangleweave the heal, it's a 15 second cast.

How would a non priest accomplish that? Isn't that what your argument is about?

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One of the main issues I is the lack of 10 man limit on spells. if 20 people all try and melee 1 person many will get a message "not enough room" or similar and not be able to melee, the same restriction does not exist for spells. So you have many people in melee the rest spell spam, then the person is dead. Its this zerg meta which makes pvp crap, in the last fight, many people died before i was able to cast scorn at 15 second cast and even if it did get off, the healing same as light of fo is simply not enough to keep people alive. Its also a combination of other outstanding problems like, truestrike.

 

The TLDR is the time to kill a 90+ FS character with 50+ body str is way too short. Basically right now there is practically no real skill involved in these fights, its just a zerg fest, the only thing that really matters is trying to kill the enemy group shot caller\pvp leader first, and that is a crap pvp meta.

 

The "time to kill" need to be shorter when the person focused uses "pvp skill" to notice they are being focus and reacts the right way.

 

Here is one suggestion.

 

Switching to Defense stance should be something that significantly help you stay alive in these big 15+ v 15+ fights right now it doesnt do enough.

The current antigank code isnt very good, currently it gives you a decent CR bonus if you have many people attacking you however CR is pointless when there is a internal cooldown on block and parry. You could have 100 CR but you are still going to get rekt with 10 people melee hitting you and spells.

 

Make the Def stance give you a good amount of Magic DR based on def fighting skill.

Improve the anti gank code to also significantly reduce the block and parry cooldowns in def stance only. as well as give you some additional DR only in defence stance that scales vs the number of attackers.

 

The above should add some skill back to pvp and smooth damage when being hit by a large number of people, enough to actually make healing an option, without effecting small scale engagements

 

oh and nerf truestrike.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

How would a non priest accomplish that? Isn't that what your argument is about?

They don't and that's a issue. I wasn't disagreeing with the shield bash suggestion did you think I was?

 

 

Spell blocking if you have a shield equipped should give some baseline DR though. Soul strength isn't the answer!

 

Edited by Niki

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4 minutes ago, Niki said:

They don't and that's a issue. I wasn't disagreeing with the shield bash suggestion did you think I was?

 

 

Well you response was that tangleweave already does that, which was irrelevant because we are speaking of priests vs non priests. Priest vs priest is already balanced. They already have spells.

5 minutes ago, Threap said:

One of the main issues I is the lack of 10 man limit on spells. if 20 people all try and melee 1 person many will get a message "not enough room" or similar and not be able to melee, the same restriction does not exist for spells. So you have many people in melee the rest spell spam, then the person is dead. Its this zerg meta which makes pvp crap, in the last fight, many people died before i was able to cast scorn at 15 second cast and even if it did get off, the healing same as light of fo is simply not enough to keep people alive. Its also a combination of other outstanding problems like, truestrike.

 

The TLDR is the time to kill a 90+ FS character with 50+ body str is way too short. Basically right now there is practically no real skill involved in these fights, its just a zerg fest, the only thing that really matters is trying to kill the enemy group shot caller\pvp leader first, and that is a crap pvp meta.

 

The "time to kill" need to be shorter when the person focused uses "pvp skill" to notice they are being focus and reacts the right way.

 

Here is one suggestion.

 

Switching to Defense stance should be something that significantly help you stay alive in these big 15+ v 15+ fights right now it doesnt do enough.

The current antigank code isnt very good, currently it gives you a decent CR bonus if you have many people attacking you however CR is pointless when there is a internal cooldown on block and parry. You could have 100 CR but you are still going to get rekt with 10 people melee hitting you and spells.

 

Make the Def stance give you a good amount of Magic DR based on def fighting skill.

Improve the anti gank code to also significantly reduce the block and parry cooldowns in def stance only. as well as give you some additional DR only in defence stance that scales vs the number of attackers.

 

The above should add some skill back to pvp and smooth damage when being hit by a large number of people, enough to actually make healing an option, without effecting small scale engagements

 

oh and nerf truestrike.

 

 

No. If 10 priests cast fire pillar on a single dude, only the first fire pillar is significant. The rest have to contend with the spell resistance. What you are seeing here is the 10 dudes with truestrike, moon metal weapons, 70 bstr, champ CR bonus, crown CR bonus, artifacts, arrows from archery from angles you cant block, etc piling onto a single dude. There is no way a single person should be able to last long under such a barrage. If you get piled on in a 20 vs 20 you should fall down like a sack of potatoes. As people die the fight gets more even.

 

If you are trying to say you should go into a 20vs20 and escape with no one dying, you are delusional. This is not true in any game. Numbers will always trump pretty much anything else. 

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kinda sad to think about it and realize that people who cry loud enough will get their nerf or whatever they are after

 

priests were a huge plus in pvp for YEARS, dont act like they werent

nerf this and make it boring again, who cares at this point lol

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19 minutes ago, Threap said:

One of the main issues I is the lack of 10 man limit on spells. if 20 people all try and melee 1 person many will get a message "not enough room" or similar and not be able to melee, the same restriction does not exist for spells. So you have many people in melee the rest spell spam, then the person is dead. Its this zerg meta which makes pvp crap, in the last fight, many people died before i was able to cast scorn at 15 second cast and even if it did get off, the healing same as light of fo is simply not enough to keep people alive. Its also a combination of other outstanding problems like, truestrike.

 

The TLDR is the time to kill a 90+ FS character with 50+ body str is way too short. Basically right now there is practically no real skill involved in these fights, its just a zerg fest, the only thing that really matters is trying to kill the enemy group shot caller\pvp leader first, and that is a crap pvp meta.

 

The "time to kill" need to be shorter when the person focused uses "pvp skill" to notice they are being focus and reacts the right way.

 

Here is one suggestion.

 

Switching to Defense stance should be something that significantly help you stay alive in these big 15+ v 15+ fights right now it doesnt do enough.

The current antigank code isnt very good, currently it gives you a decent CR bonus if you have many people attacking you however CR is pointless when there is a internal cooldown on block and parry. You could have 100 CR but you are still going to get rekt with 10 people melee hitting you and spells.

 

Make the Def stance give you a good amount of Magic DR based on def fighting skill.

Improve the anti gank code to also significantly reduce the block and parry cooldowns in def stance only. as well as give you some additional DR only in defence stance that scales vs the number of attackers.

 

The above should add some skill back to pvp and smooth damage when being hit by a large number of people, enough to actually make healing an option, without effecting small scale engagements

 

oh and nerf truestrike.

 

 

Solid points thank you.

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Just now, Quicktor said:

kinda sad to think about it and realize that people who cry loud enough will get their nerf or whatever they are after

 

priests were a huge plus in pvp for YEARS, dont act like they werent

nerf this and make it boring again, who cares at this point lol

Balance is necessary for the game mechanic to succeed into the future. Priests shouldn't be gods. It's broken, 100%, I think you guys are missing the point a tad. Keep a open mind.

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