Niki

This game is flawed! Balance PVP.

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1 minute ago, Quicktor said:

i think most people are overlooking something here....

there are 2 groups actively pvp'ing on chaos atm, one of these groups is against the spell rework

the other one knows how to adapt to a different meta, are we done?

 

three groups

 

people who don't pvp but are making speculations based on the loudest voices and agreeing with it

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I like the line of sight mechanic. It pushes kingdoms to consider preparation before hand. If you build walls to protect against spells during a trap you risk alerting your enemies of said trap, for example. It separates from the spell hurling or in your face melee meta. I also think a good compromise is forcing priests to not be able to block/parry while casting. It makes them much more vulnerable and gives melee users a chance to smoke a priest if he/she just decides to cast a spell in melee range. Another is making dispell work on spells being cast, by interrupting a priest spell cast if another priest dispels it. This was an improvement that helps mitigate damage.

 

There are other ways to mitigate the priest meta without again making spells useless or simply nerfing them. I think we need to look more at mechanics that forces players into strategy that brute diminishing damage.

Edited by Angelklaine

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6 minutes ago, Maiev said:

This update made path of love less useful with the healing resistance , path of power being more useful because of the very powerful spells, path of insanity becoming more powerful in pvp if it effects spell dmg and in pve regardless of spell dmg because the reduction is more important with healing factors being not as useful as before. 

Heals got buffed across the board, heals now target biggest wound which is a buff, heal resistance doesn't mean ###### yet people act like it completely ruined everything, path of power is the exact same because nobody in pvp is going to go without sotg unless they're a champ and have another account to play on for 4-5 months after it de-champs, sotg is the same because everyone has it for pvp and this is a pvp discussion.

6 minutes ago, Maiev said:

How is a free transfer from insanity because of a much older change a fix for all this? 

this is a pvp discussion, everyone in pvp has path of insanity, you're coming in here talking about changes to other mediation paths which don't matter because they're not used in pvp. make a suggestion post for it if you want, but this isn't the place.

Edited by Oblivionnreaver

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i'd also like to point out, since my post was quite sarcastic

 

 

people are demanding pvp balance in large scale skirmishes of 20 v 20

 

nothing is going to be balanced in a 20 v 20 while at the same time balanced in 5v5s

 

cmon mate

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3 minutes ago, platinumteef said:

i'd also like to point out, since my post was quite sarcastic

 

 

people are demanding pvp balance in large scale skirmishes of 20 v 20

 

nothing is going to be balanced in a 20 v 20 while at the same time balanced in 5v5s

 

cmon mate

Possibly but 20 wizards vs 20 mixed priests/nonpriests it's always going to favor the wizards. It's unbalanced because the non wizards can't block spells.

Edited by Niki

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If you got 20 people hacking or casting spells on you, you should die pretty quickly. I dont see what the problem with that is. If you nerf stuff or increase resistances so you dont drop like a sack of potatoes when you got 20 people on you, then small fights of like 3-5 people will last hours. Like wtf???

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i am pretty sure the "spellspam" niki is talking about here is in fact just the spell that initially goes off on a called target, which will follow up on the group pushing this called target cause he is in hurt status, pretty simple really...

but hey, test it yourself, cast 2 infernos on 1 target, the second inferno wont do ######.

Edited by Quicktor

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Just now, Niki said:

Possibly but 20 wizards vs 20 mixed priests/nonpriests it's always going to favor the wizards. It's unbalanced because the non wizards can't block spells and play intelligently.

You can dispell casts, just like you dispel a true strike. TC was proficient at doing this and they still are. I have been dispelled out of my true strike many times, and thats something that you have a couple seconds to do.

 

Priests have always been the meta for pvp. They have always changed the tide. Thats why the push for everyone to be Smeagain back before the change (more LoF). 

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The goal was to make it so offensive spells from priests were potent. Right now, they are. There were many tools implemented to counteract their potency through the other player taking an action to avoid it:

  • Line of sight
  • Range
  • Tangleweave (requires being a priest). Keep in mind this also increases their cast timer by up to double for a duration up to 50 seconds.
  • Pre-casting heals in anticipation of the heavy nukes (requires being a priest or allied priest). This method also makes the target highly resistant to further offensive spells through the resistance system.
  • Shield bash (unreliable)
  • Inflicting enough damage to interrupt (also unreliable)
  • Jewelry enchants for resistance (you can wear one of each element)

The problem is people are either not using these tools well enough, or they're not good enough tools. Improve the tools by which to counter offensive spells, don't nerf the spells. If you continuously nerf the spells, you'll end up exactly where they were before with nobody casting them because they're useless.

 

They were also designed to bypass a lot of the natural resistances that old and high-skilled accounts would generally have: high body strength and extremely strong armour. People who used to be near immortal are now shown an achilles heel. We're finally starting to see people wearing leather again and doing well because of these changes.

 

To take the gloves off and state it bluntly: A lot of these changes are being criticized due to not understanding how they work or the tools available to avoid them. Learn the system. If your opponents are doing something that's been effective, try it right back at them. If it doesn't work, figure out why it didn't. If it does, then you'll win.

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8 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

The goal was to make it so offensive spells from priests were potent. Right now, they are. There were many tools implemented to counteract their potency through the other player taking an action to avoid it:

  • Line of sight
  • Range
  • Tangleweave (requires being a priest). Keep in mind this also increases their cast timer by up to double for a duration up to 50 seconds.
  • Pre-casting heals in anticipation of the heavy nukes (requires being a priest or allied priest). This method also makes the target highly resistant to further offensive spells through the resistance system.
  • Shield bash (unreliable)
  • Inflicting enough damage to interrupt (also unreliable)
  • Jewelry enchants for resistance (you can wear one of each element)

The problem is people are either not using these tools well enough, or they're not good enough tools. Improve the tools by which to counter offensive spells, don't nerf the spells. If you continuously nerf the spells, you'll end up exactly where they were before with nobody casting them because they're useless.

 

They were also designed to bypass a lot of the natural resistances that old and high-skilled accounts would generally have: high body strength and extremely strong armour. People who used to be near immortal are now shown an achilles heel. We're finally starting to see people wearing leather again and doing well because of these changes.

 

To take the gloves off and state it bluntly: A lot of these changes are being criticized due to not understanding how they work or the tools available to avoid them. Learn the system. If your opponents are doing something that's been effective, try it right back at them. If it doesn't work, figure out why it didn't. If it does, then you'll win.

Maybe you should educate us then, cause I personally feel like you had extensive private talks with WU. The fact is they picked up the meta faster than I've ever seen. Like someone told them exactly how things work.

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10 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

 If it doesn't work, figure out why it didn't. If it does, then you'll win.

 

Sshhh!!!

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2 minutes ago, Niki said:

Maybe you should educate us then, cause I personally feel like you had extensive private talks with WU. The fact is they picked up the meta faster than I've ever seen. Like someone told them exactly how things work.



Whats so hard to understand here? You just right click and select hypothermia. You did some casts on us today, do you really think they're so OP? I didnt see anybody dropping in seconds.

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LOL ask mclovin he had like 100hours on the testserver

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4 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

is that any different than getting slapped by 20 huge axes with a bunch of truestrikes? if 20 people decide they want you dead you're probs gonna die regardless of what they fight you with

 

seems more like battles with larger numbers are happening, and you're looking for an excuse for why you lost them, priests were always insanely strong for pvp, nothing's changed.

I agree with Oblivionnreaver on this. Huge axes and arrows are still very relevant and this is shown in recent pvp with arrow deaths and melee madness.

 

5 hours ago, Niki said:

<snip>

The current PvP meta slightly forces you into a priest role, if you're not a priest you're worthless fodder. Melee combat isn't what chaos and epic is about anymore. It's about priest spellspaming your opponent with everything from afar, having no real threat wearing leather armour that gives a 30% casting bonus.

 

<snip>

 

I am not a priest and I seem to make a difference in every fight with my huge axe out. My non-priest fighters wreck people with huge axes. The most recent wipe on TC was also almost fully melee, with very little spell casting. I don't think your perception of priests being OP is fully accurate. I mean, I wish I was a priest, because I wouldn't have to use arrows for long range attacks. But we just killed someone (Wilca) very fast with arrows the same day as the TC-WL wipe, but no spells were casted.

 

I haven't really tested the damages since they recently got reduced, but I imagine it is not any more OP than before it got reduced, and considering that all of the recent wipes were mostly melee damage or arrows, I see no real imbalance yet.

Perhaps the greatest benefit to spells is that you cannot block them like arrows. Honestly, I like this, and I think the resistances do a good job of delivering diminishing results for spell spam, as it is.

 

I guess the important question is, should a player be able to die by spell casting? I think we all agree arrows and axes make sense. But spell casting? I think some of us agree and some disagree with the idea spell casting should be similar in effectiveness to arrows and melee damage. I think most of us agree though that casting fire heart or shard of ice was a joke before the work Sindusk did on it.

 

Also, when you are gatehopping your enemies have more time and motivation to use spells on you than in a dynamic open-field fight where travel time is worthwhile in running up to your enemy physically and swinging at them. I will probably shoot you with arrows and spells if you are sitting at a minehop so I don't have to run up to you (more effort)  only for you to jump back in to safety. An arrow or spell is more stealthy, I think, and more likely to catch you out of your hop than a huge axe (or simultaneous huge axes) since you have more warning with me running toward you. Not necessarily because spells are so much more OP than melee.

 

@NikiIf you are calling leather armor the meta, and suggesting inside info to WU that leather armor will be the new meta... That's not quite true. WU was wearing drake/plate when the August armor change went in, long before the priest overhaul, and we were wiping a lot to TC at that time. We gradually switched to chain, then leather most recently. Over 7 months, WU experimented with all the different armors (including cloth, if you go check out my Solo Roaming videos in the Chaos section). Leather seems to be a sweet spot in crafting effort vs damage reduction. Its not just priests in leather either, for some 30% bonus to casting. Deathangel has been in leather a lot lately and he is not a priest.

7 months of experimenting with armor types does not amount to inside info on the new meta. Also, leather might not be the best, maybe cloth is lol. We haven't tried everyone in cloth yet, but it worked pretty well in my 1v1s.

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3 hours ago, Niki said:

Maybe you should educate us then, cause I personally feel like you had extensive private talks with WU. The fact is they picked up the meta faster than I've ever seen. Like someone told them exactly how things work.

Instead of asking to be given stuff, try things out. Wear different types of weapons/armor/spells and spar with your kingdom mates to see how it all works. WU has been testing the waters for months now like DA said above. No one came to us and gave us "inside info" in a sliver platter like you claim. Hell, I was wearing chain for a bit after the priest rework came out almost until the point when Hellfang priested. Then leather became better. I was adamant against the change since I have been used to the penalty as a drake wearing priest for such a long time (On Arakiel) but well, the results speak for themselves.

 

The point is there's many ways to counter spell damage. Then there is also the fact no one is stopping you from priesting up yourself. But even if you decide not to, try the different ways to protect yourself against it (Path of Power, Jewelry enchants, different types of armor, dispels, tanglewave, etc). That can and will give you a better edge and survivability in battle.

 

 

 

 

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I have yet to see anyone get nuked by a priest.

Only by weapons.

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I also think it is very very nice that the counters to spell damage are mostly an equal playing field. Move out of spell range. Break line of site. These are things that new players can master without waiting 5 years or paying to play. Tangleweave is a less entry-level counter, but very effective for the higher damage spells.

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10/10 want to see a 20v1 with huge axes now though.

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5 hours ago, Niki said:

The dirt bridge on our last pvp against your kingdom. Perfect example.

 

I didn't see many spells casted on that bridge. Some AoE's, maybe 1-2 direct damage spells...

 

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double post oops.

 

We can all be frenemies... but I don't think it's very bad like you're making it out to be.

Edited by Deathangel

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3 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

Instead of asking to be given stuff, try things out. Wear different types of weapons/armor/spells and spar with your kingdom mates to see how it all works. WU has been testing the waters for months now like DA said above. No one came to us and gave us "inside info" in a sliver platter like you claim. Hell, I was wearing chain for a bit after the priest rework came out almost until the point when Hellfang priested. Then leather became better. I was adamant against the change since I have been used to the penalty as a drake wearing priest for such a long time (On Arakiel) but well, the results speak for themselves.

 

The point is there's many ways to counter spell damage. Then there is also the fact no one is stopping you from priesting up yourself. But even if you decide not to, try the different ways to protect yourself against it (Path of Power, Jewelry enchants, different types of armor, dispels, tanglewave, etc). That can and will give you a better edge and survivability in battle.

 

 

 

 

You know I've been using leather way before it was popular and the norm right even before the august changes? I mean I hardly ever saw you in open pvp when you were in TC even. So perhaps you never saw me using it? Idk. I was mocked a lot for it.

 

I do test extensively Angel, I'm sure TC can confirm. So even before the august changes leather was viable as well, just in another way. To escape if you were being targeted if you were in chain/plate. You could out maneuver easily against a true strike, I did it a lot against Snoo/Max when they were Panda. Now it's just very good even better than drake some would argue. I personally don't understand why we use drake at all in TC in this new meta. I'm not a leader but they can probably confirm I complained about that as well. As have others.

 

The casting bonus on leather is a remnant of the old system which I think should be removed. It's completely unbalanced. I don't understand why you guys defend a absurdly overpowered meta. For gear? To make money? It's dumb, it ruins the challenge. I'm fairly sure TC wont entertain it for much longer.

 

Over and out.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Niki said:

The casting bonus on leather is a remnant of the old system which I think should be removed. It's completely unbalanced. I don't understand why you guys defend a absurdly overpowered meta. For gear? To make money? It's dumb, it ruins the challenge. I'm fairly sure TC wont entertain it for much longer.

We arent defending an overpowered system. We just don't agree with your assessment. It works just fine. You just need to adapt.

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16 hours ago, Niki said:

Maybe you should educate us then, cause I personally feel like you had extensive private talks with WU. The fact is they picked up the meta faster than I've ever seen. Like someone told them exactly how things work.

It's accusations like this one that caused the policies which were a large reason for my leaving the team. I'm not blaming you, just making an observation. I never "told them exactly how things work." They asked questions, and I answered those questions. If that's something that shouldn't be allowed, then I'm guilty as charged, and the policies that are in place make sense and shouldn't change.

 

But you make a solid point that some of the more intricate interactions with other game systems should probably be more clear. I'll do elemental damage types first, then move into some of the interesting mechanics with meditation.

 

Elemental Damage Types

 

One of the big changes with the priest rework is the ability to use a salve on your weapon to change its damage type to elemental. This means that you can use a maul, but it will no longer inflict crushing damage. Instead, it will be inflicting acid or cold type based on the salve. This damage type change also affects the glance rate and effectiveness against armour. Here's an evaluation of all armour types:

 

2jVvxkI.png

 

This spreadsheet was provided through Valrei International 066.

 

The two damage types to be aware of are cold and acid. Looking through glance rates, you'll notice that drake has an insane 60% glance rate versus crushing damage, and reduces the actual damage by up to 73.25%. This makes drake extremely powerful against mauls. Players using medium mauls versus a drake user would notice roughly 10.7% damage output to someone wearing high quality drake as opposed to an unarmoured target.

 

When you take a medium maul and convert the damage through a salve, it causes both the glance rate and DR effectiveness to adjust as well. This means applying a salve of acid on a medium maul will cause drake armour to glance 50% of the time instead, as well as taking a DR penalty down to 66.75% instead of its standard 70%. This causes damage throughput versus a target using an acid maul to be 16.7% effective when compared to an unarmoured target.

 

You might be thinking that there's only a 6% difference between 10.7% and 16.7%. That's incorrect. When compared to eachother, the situation where the maul is using acid inflicts 56% more damage as opposed to being its standard crushing self. This damage differential is roughly equivalent to having permanent truestrike.

 

Meta Observation

 

When the epic armour changes came through, it became obvious that chain was the favored non-dragon armour. It had damage reduction better than plate to crushing, and better slashing damage reduction than even drake/scale. The movement penalty was less significant than plate, which is why players started shifting from wearing plate into chain. At the time, the damage conversion had not yet occurred - meaning players were not concerned with the absolutely atrocious DR against cold and acid weaponry.

 

When the conversion mechanic had been pushed through with the priest rework, players started noticing that any frost or acid weapon would absolutely decimate chain armour. The common choice was salve of frost, as it dealt more damage than literally any other type of attack to any other type of armour that wasn't cloth. This caused players to have to rethink what they would wear. If not chain, they would have to wear plate, leather, or studded. Plate has a significant movement speed penalty and is extremely vulnerable to non-converted mauls (which are the current meta weapon). This put them out of contention, leaving studded or leather. The difference between damage reduction for leather and studded is substantial, but creates a vulnerability in the slash column which can be easily abused. Against any other type of weapon, studded is generally the best choice, but contains an "achilles heel" which is easily abused. Instead, standard leather provides the best protection against both crushing, slashing, and cold - the three most common damage types.

 

The best way to punish players wearing leather is to enhance weapons using a potion of acid. This will convert the damage type to one which actually worsens more rapidly (like rotting touch) and also causes the player to take extremely heavy hits when a blow lands. For comparison, hitting a player in leather using an acid weapon will deal roughly double the damage of hitting someone in drake with a maul.

 

Meditation

 

Before the changes, not using Shield of the Gone on a PvP account made you a prime target for assassination in a fight, as you'd be taking more damage than everyone else. After the changes, there's actually a lot more room to select different meditation paths.

 

Path of Love is actually a great selection for players using Fo priests. All healing spells in the game were changed to be affected by the level 11 "Healing Hands" passive. This makes the healing resistance less penalizing overall, as the amount of healing done through resistance is increased by 50%. Someone with 6 minutes and 40 seconds of healing resistance will take equivalent healing from someone with Path of Love as they would with no resistance from someoneone without it. While it provides very little in regards to damage output or reduction, being able to heal through the new resistances more efficiently can be the difference between getting nuked down and staying alive. It's also worth mentioning that Light of Fo and Scorn of Libila are affected by these changes, and are more effective when used by a Path of Love character now.

 

Path of Power is probably one of the optimal choices for those without 70 meditation yet. At 50 meditation and level 9 Path of Power, you obtain Elemental Immunity. This lasts 30 minutes and completely negates all elemental damage. Remember how acid is so much more effective against certain armours as described above? Acid is an elemental damage type. To clarify: Frost, Burn, and Acid wounds are considered elemental. This means if someone uses a salve of frost or potion of acid on their weapon and try to attack a player under the effects of Elemental Immunity, they will not be able to deal damage. This also translates into all spell damage inflicted during that time, and it gets even better. If someone attempts to cast a spell on you during Elemental Immunity, you will obtain resistance equivalent to the amount of damage it should have inflicted, but will take no damage. This creates a situation where even if your elemental immunity falls off, any residual resistances you had from previous combat will still apply. Finally, keep in mind that this power can be triggered during combat and gives no message to enemies when you do so.

 

Path of Hate is one that I consider to have been indirectly buffed through the priest rework to the point where I personally feel it is stronger than Path of Insanity overall. First of all, while the Magranon passive which caused 25% increased damage was nerfed to 15%, Path of Hate's war bonus effect was not and remains a 30 minute window with +50% damage. Again, 50% damage is equivalent to having Truestrike. Only difference is that it stacks with Truestrike as well and makes you do 225% of standard damage when using both. However, the most important part is the level 11 Spell Immunity. This makes it so players cannot even try casting offensive spells on you. Fireheart, Shard of Ice, Rotting Gut, Hypothermia, Inferno, Worm Brains - all gone. None of those can be cast on a player with level 11 Path of Hate. This also includes the new spell Purge, allowing players who have level 11 Path of Hate to get away with a lot more nonsense than standard players in regards to newly buffed spells (forest giant strength, bearpaws, etc). It does not, however, protect against AoE spells which do not specifically target the player. Fire Pillar, Ice Pillar, and Tentacles will all still impact someone who has Spell Immunity. Dispel also functions against Spell Immunity. Finally, +2CR from Fear is nothing to scoff at and is roughly equivalent to 10 fighting skill in PvP.

 

Conclusion

 

The reality is that the Priest Update didn't just affect priests. It didn't just affect combat, and it's not all about the spells. Wurm has an insane amount of depth and hundreds of systems to account for. Mechanics that were discounted as useless in the past are now capable of having significant impact. Many systems are thrown out due to past stereotypes: Shield of the Gone is required. Body strength is the only stat that matters. DR stacking is the key. These stereotypes are deep-rooted in the community due to how long the meta has remained the same. The changes have shifted the meta, there is no doubt about that. Now it's the next step - adaptation. Figuring out what works and what doesn't. The update has been out for under 2 months and people are still feeling it out. I personally consider that a success. If it was so simple that it was understood immediately, then it would detract away from exactly what makes Wurm so enticing... it's depth.

 

My hope is that the new HotA system would encourage more small-scale skirmishes on a more frequent basis, so that players can experience the changes where their actions make a more significant impact on the fight.

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