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Angelklaine

Trader Item Suggestions

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3 hours ago, Fairyshine said:

We have two deeds touching each other and no way to put the tile in question in a deed since we have tunnel houses linking the two deeds which already cost a lot to create with bases in both deeds. It is also stupid that erupt no longer works on enforced mine walls.  The change was made and never explained.

 

I believe the argument has been made before where people say someone could potentially dig on a perimeter and crack open a mine between two deeds touching each other. This is clearly considered griefing, and would be reportable. I can't think of a plausible reason why would anyone do this that could show a need for it.

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6 hours ago, madnezz said:

 

Only reinforcements within someone else's perimeter are safe from people throwing money at them.  .. ( deeding )

 

Yes, and exactly that is my point why and where removal of reinforced tiles is an issue. On deed it is not of course as reinforced tiles can be removed there with the appopriate permissions. tiles under open land aren't either, as they can deeded over, and up to hundreds of reinforcements be removed at the cost of 1s for a small temporary deed, and some coppers for the upkeep until the disbanding. That is orders of magnitude cheaper and faster than a mag priest, or such proposed tool.

 

Ok, sometimes the landscape can be adverse, and make deeding harder. But: there is no inaccessible ground on Wurm (unless deeded and/or walled and gated). Who doesn't dare or isn't able to climb up may hire an experienced mountaineer to plant a tempdeed in difficult territory and hand over mayorhood later. I think disbanding can be done with the writ, does not need to be at the token, same goes for resizing.

 

So perimeters remain. Of course it may be inconvenient to respect the perimeter of a deed where the owner is probably gone forever but the deed still kept up. How do you figure she or he is gone and not just taking a leave?

 

Even worse neighbourhood conflicts. I just had troubles with a rogue troll who destroyed all valuable and beautiful trees not fenced (some with a history as long as Xanadu's) in my perimeter out of spite (he even stole the lamps on the water tiles of my tunnel, such a jerk :) ). I would not like him just to throw in some 100 euro (is such a type) to buy such "certified disintegrate for every noob" wands and devastate my underground environment in addition. I am quite sure that every considerate mag priest on Wurm would think twice to be hired by him. A trader tool has no conscience. And it is telling that Angelklaine wants to exclude Chaos (not Epic btw.?) from the "blessing" of the new tool, obviously conscious of its devastating effect in conflict laden situations.

 

Now compare the power of the proposed tool to existing trader ones. An Orn of Shaking costs 5s, and replaces 1 strongwall-collapse cast. Strongwall is available already for Nahjo and Magranon beginners, it is ubiquitously available, and usually charged 30 to 50c per tile plus travel expense (1s usually depending on distance and ease to travel). So the proposed tool is extremely underpriced.

 

Same goes for the vein poofing ability (which I would consider viable). A master miner with an exceptional tool does 16+ but usually under 20 shards per minute, on the longer range (breaks, changing vein, clearing tiles from shards, ore etc.) it will be rather 10- shards as with all taskwork even in rl. Mediocre miners like me, even with good tools, will do half of it.

 

Considering that most veins in the way range about 2..9k, with an average of prolly 5k (my estimate from own experiences) you would replace well 8 to 16+  work hours of a master, and over 30 of a humble mine worker, by a tool for 5s. Compare that to what is paid to priests for less work, it is still overly cheap.

 

So if implemented for veins at all, it should come with an appropriate pricing, 15..20s possibly.

 

That said, thanks to Angelklaine for the work on the proposals, well thought most of them, and nice. May the devs decide.

 

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6 hours ago, Fairyshine said:

We have two deeds touching each other and no way to put the tile in question in a deed since we have tunnel houses linking the two deeds which already cost a lot to create with bases in both deeds. It is also stupid that erupt no longer works on enforced mine walls.  The change was made and never explained.

 

I do not fully understand the issue. If I understand correctly, you can deed over houses you own in your own perimeter as well as in free land, in fact I already did exactly that. So why can't you just consent over an owner change of buildings, resize, and deed over, and back, to do these works? Yes, it is inconvenient, and required mutual consent. That is, to my understanding, and the dev/GM explanations in the thread about erupt and reinforcements, the spirit behind the restrictions. I understand that it may be very uncomfortable at times.

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46 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

 

I do not fully understand the issue. If I understand correctly, you can deed over houses you own in your own perimeter as well as in free land, in fact I already did exactly that. So why can't you just consent over an owner change of buildings, resize, and deed over, and back, to do these works? Yes, it is inconvenient, and required mutual consent. That is, to my understanding, and the dev/GM explanations in the thread about erupt and reinforcements, the spirit behind the restrictions. I understand that it may be very uncomfortable at times.

:) Regarding the house, involves swopping the house back and forth between mayors, so it involves more than just the money to expand the deeds after you shrunk them....   

 

It is weird that tiles underground which fall in a perim is protected with this vigour while tiles above ground which fall in perim have no protection from terraforming, building highways etc.  Since this thread is not about that issue, I can just say I would be quite happy to pay 5 silver and be done with a tile immediately rather than paying for prem for a priest, and farm or buy then chop and sac thousands of veggies for favour, on top of which I will waste a week of my playtime trying to disintegrate a tile.  So again, +1 to such a shop item. 

Edited by Fairyshine

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8 minutes ago, Fairyshine said:

:) Regarding the house, involves changing mayors thus having three prem chars, so it involves more than just the money to expand the deeds after you shrunk them....   

 

It is weird that tiles underground which fall in a perim is protected with this vigour while tiles above ground which fall in perim have no protection from terraforming, building highways etc.  Since this thread is not about that issue, I can just say I would be quite happy to pay 5 silver and be done with a tile immediately rather than paying for prem for a priest, and farm or buy then chop and sac thousands of veggies for favour, on top of which I will waste a week of my playtime trying to disintegrate a tile.  So again, +1 to such a shop item. 

 

While I understand your issue, you must admit that it is about convenience only. Any of your mayors has to be premmed some time in the future I assume which costs 5s for the shortest period thinkable if I understood CC pricing right, then may do all the ownership and resize tasks. Just a matter of planing if I am not totally wrong. And as said, that proposed tool is extremely underpriced compared to the shaking orb vs strongwall for example, you correctly state the effort for a single disintegrate.

 

As to the lack of perim protection over ground, I believe it is to protect off deed buildings when falling into the perimeter of newly founded deeds. While the owner can't repair anymore, nor build or repair fences, s/he can still continue growing crops, farming, foraging, gathering, and harvesting, and is not just forced to leave immediately, just has to build further animal pens off perim. Therefore I consider that design quite balanced no matter how much I suffered from lately.

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9 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

 

While I understand your issue, you must admit that it is about convenience only. Any of your mayors has to be premmed some time in the future I assume which costs 5s for the shortest period thinkable if I understood CC pricing right, then may do all the ownership and resize tasks. Just a matter of planing if I am not totally wrong. And as said, that proposed tool is extremely underpriced compared to the shaking orb vs strongwall for example, you correctly state the effort for a single disintegrate.

 

As to the lack of perim protection over ground, I believe it is to protect off deed buildings when falling into the perimeter of newly founded deeds. While the owner can't repair anymore, nor build or repair fences, s/he can still continue growing crops, farming, foraging, gathering, and harvesting, and is not just forced to leave immediately, just has to build further animal pens off perim. Therefore I consider that design quite balanced no matter how much I suffered from lately.

Not balanced at all.  If someone builds a wall above ground in a perim, it takes half a day to destroy it.  If you build a mine support underground, it takes a week and thousands of resources.  (Even in the wilderness, where walls actually fall within week.  Mine supports still stand strong years and years after.)

Edited by Fairyshine
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I see your point, although I do not agree to. Let us leave it that way. Again, thx Angelklaine for the proposals, also for your patience with that discussion on your thread.

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12 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

In game currency (silver) is exclusively obtained from real life money and removed from circulation with sinks such as trader sales and deed upkeep. Contrary to popular belief, traders dont produce silver from "king's coffers" out of thin air. Silver generating activities such as foraging and hunting silver random rewards or trader drains come from money that has filled the coffers partially through currency sinks (like deed upkeeps).

 

This is an old discussion in which your statements have been proven misleading and drawn to a wrong conclusion. When the game gives back silver to players through various mechanisms it is all taken from the game's profits; thus obviously it reduces them since then yes, players would otherwise actually need to purchase this silver from the Wurm Shop. This arbitrary and unspecified percentage (only speculated upon by players through their "research") is supposedly tied to deed upkeep paid into the game. Then this portioned amount is given back to players through the activities you mentioned. The game could just as well state that we will give back X amount of a percentage from game income back to the players proportioned through these activities, which of course is actually what is being done.

 

Yes, initially at one point these coins (silver, gold) were purchased from the Wurm Shop creating game income but when a portion is given back to players it is not hard to realize that this reduces the game income/profit. Then when this given back portion of the silver in circulation is in turn used to purchase other items in game, on Traders, or sold off to other players at a reduced rate than the Wurm Shop, this reduces the players needs to purchase this silver from the Wurm Shop and the detrimental game profit reducing cycle is perpetuated.

 

True enough that the statement "traders dont produce silver from "king's coffers" out of thin air" can be used in a shallow attempt to mislead players into believing naively that this has no effect on game income because "In game currency (silver) is exclusively obtained from real life money"; however, as my statements above and in my previous post that you responded to have shown this system has a negative effect on the game income, reducing it. Again I state, if these items that you mentioned could only be purchased from the Wurm Shop for RL currencies then there is no way direct payment for them could be avoided. Well other than by those who make RL profits from selling various items and silver to other players for RL cash equivalents, who then in turn may use this to purchase these items from the Wurm Shop.

 

Now I am not debating the merits of this system of giving a portion of game income back to the players in this manner, nor the various ways in which the players take advantage of it for their own RL profits. I am merely stating what is actually going on rather than either misunderstanding it or trying to obfuscate the facts of the matter as you are. I really didn't want to get into this even in the brief manner that I did here but since you have challenged me with your statements that are not the facts of the matter I thought it best to make a further statement about the situation to clarify it.

 

=Ayes=

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2 hours ago, Ayes said:

Now I am not debating the merits of this system of giving a portion of game income back to the players in this manner, nor the various ways in which the players take advantage of it for their own RL profits. I am merely stating what is actually going on rather than either misunderstanding it or trying to obfuscate the facts of the matter as you are. I really didn't want to get into this even in the brief manner that I did here but since you have challenged me with your statements that are not the facts of the matter I thought it best to make a further statement about the situation to clarify it.

Obfuscating. Yes. Because my grandiose plan to destroy Wurm's proceeds and implementing self serving changes which I  have no power to implement wouldn't otherwise work unless I misdirected and confused my audience. Its all part of my master plan to destroy the world.

 

Maybe if I included a wand of hostile mob evasion you would had +1'd this. I need to plan this better in the future so I am not discovered!

 

 

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Simple solution to #4, you can use it on your deed with remove reinforcement perms, in your perimeter, and off deed.  You can not use it in someone else's perimeter.  

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On 1/31/2019 at 9:02 PM, Angelklaine said:

We could even make the charge not work on perimeter tiles either.

That is my thought exactly. Its what I suggested a few posts ago. Would solve many of people's concerns.

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Your perimeter is the only place you truly need it, otherwise you can solve the problem in other ways.

Edited by madnezz

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2 minutes ago, madnezz said:

Perimeter is the only place you truly need it, otherwise you can solve the problem in other ways.

You can always solve a reinforcement in perimeter with desintegrate. But what concerns me the most and many other people is what business you have messing with someone else's perimeter? In that I agree with many other players.

 

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Although you can dig and terraform in other's perimeters, below ground should have the same rules.  If you want to protect something 100% you need to deed it. 

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On 2/1/2019 at 7:33 PM, Etherdrifter said:

+1 to everything but 4; I really don't want people vandalising my tunnel.

Why do you think someone would spend even a dime to vandalise your tunnel o.O All this talk about not making removing reinforcement ofdeed easier is rather silly and paranoid tbh.

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2 hours ago, kochinac said:

Why do you think someone would spend even a dime to vandalise your tunnel o.O All this talk about not making removing reinforcement ofdeed easier is rather silly and paranoid tbh.

It's rarely a case of malice (though I have had *palm*hole neighbours in the past), most folks just assume that if someone hasn't been there in a week, then it is abandoned.

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1 hour ago, Etherdrifter said:

It's rarely a case of malice (though I have had *palm*hole neighbours in the past), most folks just assume that if someone hasn't been there in a week, then it is abandoned.

Idk I would have to hate someone really bad to spend 5s just to destroy his one reinforced tile on a whim...

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2 hours ago, kochinac said:

Idk I would have to hate someone really bad to spend 5s just to destroy his one reinforced tile on a whim...

It seems that there is a distinction between those who fortunately never had such neighbours and those who had or have. There are people mostly with purchased accounts and the wrong idea about money buying them power. The tool proposed would attract them like rotten flesh does with flies and maggots.

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I can def see the mining charge being used as a weapon to grief, but it would save so much time for those who make tunnels often. Everything else seems awesome.

I'd like to add personally the mining charge would be awesome as a priest spell maybe something you need to link for etc.

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15 minutes ago, Legios said:

I can def see the mining charge being used as a weapon to grief, but it would save so much time for those who make tunnels often. Everything else seems awesome.

I'd like to add personally the mining charge would be awesome as a priest spell maybe something you need to link for etc.

I think that strongwalling and desintegrate should be more common spell on pve too. And that removing reinforcement should be way easier. There are tons of abbandoned places people went nuts on long time ago  that are nightmare to restore. It's a sandbox afterall, somebody can mess you by diging giant hole in front of you, cut the trees you planted, destroy paved road you made, catapult your fences but somehow the only problem is someone destroyed your support beam. Make new one and reinforce it, literally few minutes. I really don't get all the fuss about protecting ofdeed reinforcement so much, it's same as other things in game. Requiring that minimal amount of money and planting a deed to do it is ridiculous if I wanna do you harm I already can do that.

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I fail to see your point. Deeding over costs 1s and a bit (upkeep til work done), and may remove hundreds of unwanted reinforcements. Protection is only relevant when it comes to perimeter, or ground with buildings.  And yes, there are other means of griefing, no reason to add another one. Mining work requires more effort than surface work in general. Everybody who created high ceiling and multi level installations underground will know what I mean.

 

Edit: I think everything is said about. Sorry again Angelklaine for that protracted dispute.

Edited by Ekcin
addendum

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1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

Edit: I think everything is said about. Sorry again Angelklaine for that protracted dispute.

That's what suggestions forum is for, so we can discuss what we like or dont like about a suggestion.

 

Personally I dont understand why there is so much hate against it to be honest though. Seems people oppose it because it simply makes something already allowed by a spell easier. If you shut down it being allowable on perimeters you dont own, then whats the big deal? No one should have complete safety om an off deed mine, and highways and canals are already protected by the rules. What gives?

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It is not about hate but about concern. And it does not just make the spell easier. I wonder a bit that the advocates of a tool opening a disintegrate like effect to everybody who throws money in are not advocating just lowering the favor used and channeling needed for mag priests. I could understand that in all legitimate cases.

 

Even with moderately lowered priest skill for disintegrate, a priest would care not to be inflicted in griefing or disputes, much less in vandalism. Probably no priest would risk his or her hard earned skills and their account in rule breaches, and a rogue priest would soon be identified and banned.

 

A tool has no conscience, as I wrote. An offender could set up a throwaway character, even a premed one, wreak as much havoc as wanted, then let the perpetrator dissipate. Plausible deniability for the real culprit guaranteed with some care. CC is not the police or the CIA.

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13 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

It is not about hate but about concern. And it does not just make the spell easier. I wonder a bit that the advocates of a tool opening a disintegrate like effect to everybody who throws money in are not advocating just lowering the favor used and channeling needed for mag priests. I could understand that in all legitimate cases.

 

Even with moderately lowered priest skill for disintegrate, a priest would care not to be inflicted in griefing or disputes, much less in vandalism. Probably no priest would risk his or her hard earned skills and their account in rule breaches, and a rogue priest would soon be identified and banned.

 

A tool has no conscience, as I wrote. An offender could set up a throwaway character, even a premed one, wreak as much havoc as wanted, then let the perpetrator dissipate. Plausible deniability for the real culprit guaranteed with some care. CC is not the police or the CIA.

But what do you define as "griefing"? Someone breaking on your off deed mine to loot it? This can already be accomplished by simply dropping a deed and mining out -all- of the reinforcements and paying less than half the cost of the mining charge. The deed dropping is another tool with no consience and much more devastating to your off deed spot. A player could even deed it over and keep all your stuff/hard work for themselves, something the expensive charge cannot do.

 

A charge would cost 5s and works one time. A deed costs about 6s tops to drop and you get most of it back when you disband it and it allows you to remove all reinforcements. I know which item I would use.

 

Simply making it so it doesn't work on perimeter fixes the griefing concern, which is the only place you would potentially not be able to drop a deed. This argument to me looks like a country banning pistols, but allowing their citizens to carry rocket launchers.

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