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Farewell to the greatest Dev

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5 minutes ago, Carmichael said:

You shouldn't have to force a staff member to not play their preferred playstyle. Player opinionated biased will remain until the end of time. It's literally something you have to just deal with.

 

If you want to maintain the image of transparency then some sacrifices have to be made. Especially when you consider the real world money involved in this game and pvp. I don't like it. Wish it was not the case, but it is and you cannot deny that. 

 

also why is it sindusk wasnt allowed to have a private conversation with a player regarding a bug but some GMs are allowed to join private kingdoms, discords, etc

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Carmichael said:

I probably should've added the forums as well. It's a completely separate entity. Just because someone may be toxic on the forums doesn't mean they deserve an ingame permaban right off the bat. There are simple steps that a moderator should take in order to ban someone. Like I don't wanna tell a moderator how to do their job, but it ends up hurting the game in the long-run. I've seen on multiple occasions people getting banned off the forums and ingame permanently from all sides of the PvP world. It's crappy in the end either way. Then again opinions are like ######s, everyone has one.

This is not true. Forum bans are completely separate from ingame bans and they can be carried over to the game only when the banned person actively evades their ban by creating new accounts. It's more often the case of certain people breaking both forum and game rules, not just one of those.

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1 minute ago, Kawdzo said:

 

If you want to maintain the image of transparency then some sacrifices have to be made. Especially when you consider the real world money involved in this game and pvp. I don't like it. Wish it was not the case, but it is and you cannot deny that. 

 

also why is it sindusk wasnt allowed to have a private conversation with a player regarding a bug but some GMs are allowed to join private kingdoms, discords, etc

 

 

Enki was a part of the JK kingdom and PMK almost the entire time as a GM. Doesn't mean he was biased towards anything or anyone. He's not a dev, but it's a prime example. Plus there are plenty of other dev's that can sit there and think about the pro's and cons for any kind of implementation that comes forth into the game. In reality its up to the developers as a whole to think if something is going to be equal for all or help one side out more.

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37 minutes ago, Budda said:

 

The policy is specifically to do with pvp players talking to developers in back channel PMs or messages. There has been a long history of accusations of one kingdom or another having the ear of a dev and getting their requests implemented into the game because it benefits them over another kingdom. These accusations still happen to this day. Limiting those communications stop that sort of thing from happening. The forums exist for a reason, the suggestions forum and bug forum exist for a reason. If everything is discussed openly in these sections then the accusations of bias towards one kingdom or another are baseless.

 

So why have you chosen, then, to selectively impose this upon your team? That's what it sounds like to me. There are quite a few staff members that don't just talk to people on PvP but actively play there themselves.

Seems like this "policy" was very selectively applied to Sindusk, enough so that he felt forced to leave.

If you've had such bad experiences with PvP players and staff mixing, why don't you separate the two?

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Communication and transparency regarding future plans would definitely be an improvement to Wurm... along side many games I've seen. But for the size of WO and how long its been out, i do have to say (in my opinion) the staff has done a great job keeping it running.

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4 hours ago, Sindusk said:

 

With all of that said, these aren’t the only reasons. Certain events that I’m not at liberty to discuss were also part of my decision. I truly respect the current development team and feel they have the best interests of the game in mind. However, improving the communication and winning your community back to supporting your efforts should be of paramount importance.

 

This really points to the fact that someone "in the know" feels like some shady business is happening behind the scenes, and meanwhile nothing has been announced or discussed with the player base.

 

I get that not all decisions at the GM level will get public airing, that just wouldn't work, but today apparently a bunch of bans are apparently happening without anyone being told why. That seems pretty shady, and I can't help but feel this is directly connected to Sindusk's decision today.

 

Please keep in mind that all information I have is second or third hand, but if something about these things was announced/discussed, potentially flawed secondary sources would die in the light.

 

So yeah, bring on the transparency. ;)

Edited by Fearil
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21 minutes ago, Samool said:

This is not true. Forum bans are completely separate from ingame bans and they can be carried over to the game only when the banned person actively evades their ban by creating new accounts. It's more often the case of certain people breaking both forum and game rules, not just one of those.

Unknownorganism was banned using the "toxic player rule" over a comment on discord. As much as I dislike the guy, its concrete evidence that he was banned by saying something out of game. He wasn't avoiding a ban by creating more accounts, and his in game account had no known warnings. He was simply banned for saying something innapropiate publicly, and not even in game. That shows that what Carmichael said is true.

 

But sure, the GM team would say to this "There are more things that influenced this decision." But the fact is your statement of what the rule is its false.

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9 minutes ago, Fearil said:

 

This really point to the fact that someone "in the know" feels like some shady business is happening behind the scenes, and meanwhile nothing has been announced or discussed with the player base.

 

I get that not all decisions at the GM level will get public airing, that just wouldn't work, but today apparently a bunch of bans are apparently happening without anyone being told why. That seems pretty shady, and I can't help but feel this is directly connected to SIndusk's decision today.

 

Please keep in mind that all information I have is second or third hand, but if something about these things was announced, potentially flawed secondary sources would die in the light.

 

So yeah, bring on the transparency. ;)

 

The first sign of a despotic regime is that one cannot openly question those in power, a rule that is most prominently displayed topmost in the "forum rules" thread.

The second is that when one questions shady business and going's on, they are removed from a position of power.

 

Just for comparison.

Edited by whereami
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8 minutes ago, Fearil said:

This really point to the fact that someone "in the know" feels like some shady business is happening behind the scenes, and meanwhile nothing has been announced or discussed with the player base.

 

I get that not all decisions at the GM level will get public airing, that just wouldn't work, but today apparently a bunch of bans are apparently happening without anyone being told why. That seems pretty shady, and I can't help but feel this is directly connected to SIndusk's decision today.

 

Devs do not have access to GM channels or information regarding in-game cases like this.

 

Edit: Before follow up arguments are made; yes there is dev & gm communication where applicable, but specifics to handling in-game cases, punishments and decisions, devs do not have access to that info.

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@Retrogradeyou do a good job with communicating changes and patches with what the dev team gives you from what I can see.

 

If anyone that plays thinks the GM team communicates their rulings regarding disciplinary actions and the process they use, get some professional help.  Played this game for 14-15 years.  People view their decisions as non uniform - more harsh, more lenient.  Don’t just fix the optics, fix the policies please. 

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2 hours ago, platinumteef said:

...the game needs to flush out 90% of its current (staff lol) volunteers and get real staff if it ever wants to be successful...

 

I cannot understand why GMs are even allowed to play in a pvp, factional environment? That is a whole box of issues, conflict of interest, bias, fairness etc. Even on pve world, player staff can cause similar issues. 

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Freedom GMs that haven’t been in a PvP environment and need to learn mechanics to understand support tickets are useless for Chaos. I don’t want to teach a GM what are supposed to be features or what doesn’t work right on Chaos.  Positive and Negatives to everything, just don’t have GROSSLY biased people on the GM team?

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Take care @Sinduskand good luck in the future!

 

Really good person :) 

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20 minutes ago, Mojo said:

Freedom GMs that haven’t been in a PvP environment and need to learn mechanics to understand support tickets are useless for Chaos. I don’t want to teach a GM what are supposed to be features or what doesn’t work right on Chaos.  Positive and Negatives to everything, just don’t have GROSSLY biased people on the GM team?

 

They don't have to participate in PvP to govern PvP if there were clear rules and features that both players and staff were aware of.

 

Here is a hypotheical:

 

You are a gm and you get a ticket from an enemy kingdom about someone being stuck in a mine entrance.  When you answer the ticket you can't help but notice most of that kingdom are stealthed in that mine.   Just so happens you were supposed to lead your kingdom as part of a planned raid in that direction when you get back on your player account, directly into that trap.  Your raid party is greatly outnumbered by the enemy kingdom and you know it.  They have more than 4 times the amount of players and they are in better gear.  What would you do to be completely unbiased and impartial?  Would you lead your raid to certain death and risk losing their gear and their faith in you?  Would you cancel the raid?

Edited by madnezz
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11 minutes ago, Mataleao said:

 

I cannot understand why GMs are even allowed to play in a pvp, factional environment? That is a whole box of issues, conflict of interest, bias, fairness etc. Even on pve world, player staff can cause similar issues. 

Most of the GMs in this game are volunteers. You can't expect a player to be forced to choose between being a staffer and a player and not get paid. Would you work for a gaming company you can't play for and not even get paid? Also, what Mojo says is true. I rather have someone like Capi or Gary answer my GM ticket on Chaos than some other GM that has never played there no matter how well intentioned they are.

 

You can't have a great PVP GM team that doesn't play on the PVP servers. Thats an oxymoron. The bias perception will always be there. The only way to tackle it is with transparency. 

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14 minutes ago, madnezz said:

 

They don't have to participate in PvP to govern PvP if there were clear rules and features that both players and staff were aware of.

 

Here is a hypotheical:

 

You are a gm and you get a ticket from an enemy kingdom about someone being stuck in a mine entrance.  When you answer the ticket you can't help but notice most of that kingdom are stealthed in that mine.   Just so happens you were supposed to lead your kingdom as part of a planned raid in that direction when you get back on your player account, directly into that trap.  Your raid party is greatly outnumbered by the enemy kingdom and you know it.  What would you do to be completely unbiased and impartial?

I would if i was in that position not share that info and go out in a blaze of glory with my group thats the point of it if you can not put a line between being a player and being a gm you should not be a gm

It really is that simple but clearly impossible for some people in wurm and thats the sad part but its how people are not a lot of us can draw straight clear lines and never cross them its really hard especially after a long time of doing it

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I would argue its not fair to everyone involved to put people in that position to have to make that decision.  Your kingdom is going to question your leadership once it becomes known that you knew about the trap, the enemy is going to mention that gm so and so was just here and let you die.  It's not fair to the enemy kingdom to have to wonder if you purposefully avoided the trap and they may even call off the trap now that they know you know.  Nothing good can come from this.  Every GM can see every ticket, so all it takes is one or two bad apples and the faith in the system erodes further.

 

Hiding GMs identities is not the answer either.  We should know who were are potentially pvping against and make educated decisions to participate in pvp.

Edited by madnezz
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Not sure if this helps any concerns but GMs aren't allowed to be involved in a situation they are involved in as a player, or have personal ties to.  I know this isn't a perfect world but that's how things are intended to go and usually is.

 

Sometimes it's unavoidable to appear biased or abusing internal information.  For example one time on elevation many years ago, BL killed MR poles in south ele in a boat fight, and their corpses were bugged invisible.  MR poles were already coming back to the fight with those of us from the capital deed including me who was a CM at the time, but halfway there BL submit support ticket about the invisible corpses.  This means I am able to see the tickets and know what is going on and that they are likely still in the water waiting for GM support.  Unfortunately I am already on the way back with the people that died and they want revenge.  I do not tell them about the ticket as that is leaking information, so my options are to either restrict my own gameplay and karma home avoiding telling why and giving my team a disadvantage when they could have found someone else to take my boat seat, or stay and act as if nothing occurred since it is what I was already doing.  Naturally this upset BL and certain people accused me of abusing info from tickets despite me being the only one on my side with the knowledge.  Except... for Brqqq who was on the boat next to me and actually a GM and yet no one said a word about him.

 

There was also a time pre-staff when I got a knarr stuck in a cave wall and needed a GM to help.  Just so happened the GM I got played on BLH and the knarr was for a bunch of us to go raid BLH.  Nothing odd happened.

There is also that other staff can tell when you as staff are on their server (which signifies raids on epic home servers), and I've been on both sides of this many times.  Nothing odd happened still.

 

Staff are trusted to keep staff and player separate, more so GMs.  Anyone that has played WU knows what GMs can do and see.  GM actions are logged and anyone abusing their power for gain in pvp would be removed for it.  Feel free to report legitimate concerns of staff abuse to Enki and it will be looked into, but as of currently don't expect a personal response since after your report it becomes an internal matter which doesn't mean it won't be taken seriously.

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After reading this post I would like to ask something. According to this forum post I would like to ask this. A few months ago my good friend joey aka unknownorganism got permanently banned ingame because of an inappropriate comment on discord while having no warning or any bans ingame. According to that shouldnt he be banned on discord and not ingame? Would anyone  please explain me that as I am really confused right now? thinking

Edited by Anabel

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1 hour ago, Samool said:

This is not true. Forum bans are completely separate from ingame bans and they can be carried over to the game only when the banned person actively evades their ban by creating new accounts. It's more often the case of certain people breaking both forum and game rules, not just one of those.

Thats the post I failed to quote the first tine lol :)

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3 hours ago, Sindusk said:

What is the future fate of Epic? Should players continue playing there? If they place a new deed on Elevation, is there a possibility of the map being reset shortly after? How much heads up will be given?

 

All these questions stem from the fact that there is no official statement for plans on the future of Epic. Everything is being done behind closed doors and leads the community to speculate. The players don’t know if there’s a plan for Epic at all. Making sure that content is complete before announcing it is one thing. Leaving the community in a state of anxiety without giving them something to look forward to is a whole different beast.

 

There doesn’t need to be a set date, there doesn’t need to be a specific timeline. If something gets delayed, there was a reason. State the reason and trust the community to support it. Everyone in this community just wants the game to get better, but get kept at arm’s length due to fear of having them bark up a storm when something doesn’t get done. If you communicate clearly, and speak to your players like you’re having a conversation with a human instead of calming an angry consumer, you’ll see a much better response.

Someone from the staff said not so long ago that they talk with Rolf on daily basis. What is his opinion about that? If this kind of behaviour is a team routine or Rolf idea?

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Who do you report Enki to that will take your claim seriously?  Why shouldn't we be updated as to the result of our complaint against staff, it shouldn't be a strictly internal matter, it should be very public so the community has faith in your actions.

 

What about when you report staff for hacking your forums and it wasn't taken seriously? 

 

How much longer should we fall for the "trust us and everything will be ok?"  Especially when we know its not true.

Edited by madnezz
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1 minute ago, Wilczan said:

Someone from the staff said not so long ago that they talk with Rolf on daily basis. What is his opinion about that? If this kind of behaviour is a team routine or Rolf idea?

Bridges are coming by Christmas 06. 

 

Delays happen, Unexpected things pop up either in testing, mechanics or just other projects, but we don't like to get ahead of ourselves and we like to be able to deliver upon as many promises, there's only so long you can explain why something was delayed before people start asking why was it shared so early. 

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19 minutes ago, madnezz said:

Who do you report Enki to that will take your claim seriously?

 

Budda/Rolf

 

19 minutes ago, madnezz said:

Why shouldn't we be updated as to the result of our complaint against staff, it shouldn't be a strictly internal matter, it should be very public so the community has faith in your actions.

 

If people make 50 complaints a month against GMs due to their own bias/fears/tin hattery, should those 50 complaints be posted on the forums so everyone knows there isn't an issue?  That's not up to me but I think that's a bit silly.  However as far as I can recall there have been situations where information when complaints were valid was made public in the official section of forums.

 

But.... if you are even asking where to report Enki, the guy in charge of GMs, what stops the next claim from just being "those results are biased and wrong! give us the truth!".  If you cannot take staff seriously now, I highly doubt you will take any results seriously either.

 

22 minutes ago, madnezz said:

What about when you report staff for hacking your forums and it wasn't taken seriously? 

 

I'm not sure what this is but I'm probably not the one to answer.

 

23 minutes ago, madnezz said:

Especially when we know its not true.

 

You should probably report whatever your concerns are to the proper places then, if they exist and it's not just the standard pvp mentality of "my enemy staff cheat because my friend said so" which I know first hand exists because I personally experienced this mentality over many years starting as just a player on wild.

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18 minutes ago, Anabel said:

After reading this post I would like to ask something. According to this forum post I would like to ask this. A few months ago my good friend joey aka unknownorganism got permanently banned ingame because of an inappropriate comment on discord while having no warning or any bans ingame. According to that shouldnt he be banned on discord and not ingame? Would anyone  please explain me that as I am really confused right now? thinking

I think I can answer this one.

 

Going by what I know for when I was staff, the reason why Joey was banned has more to do with years of "toxic player syndrome" and not for a specific rule violation he did. For what I heard he said something about a dev that recently passed away (or so I heard) which garnered him an immediate ban. What people say is that it was one drop too many, and staff simply didn't want him around anymore. I can testify to the amount of stuff this guy did in the forums, and the considerable amount of chances he was given.

 

That being said, the reason why his account was banned is Horse####. According to the rules (cited above by Samool) he should not have been banned. Recently the "Toxic player syndrome" excuse has been overused by staff to remove someone they don't like despite who the person is or how this person has contributed to the community (or lack thereof). Banning someone has long lasting effects not only for that person, but for those who interact with them, and even the whole community. When you ban someone, there's a cloud of undertainty that spreads, and if staff is not transparent about it, rumors will abound. I

 

The reason why Joey was banned was a completely subjective one. Joey was banned not because he broke a rule, but because he pissed off enough those who hold the hammer.

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