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Farewell to the greatest Dev

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10 minutes ago, Keenan said:

 

Oh, that's okay Wargasm. I know you meant well.

That editing of other people's posts to try and further your directive

Gotta love that censorship

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1 minute ago, Oscarius said:

Still waiting for Keenan to finish his awesome algorithm that will ban us all.... SoonTM

 

Meh, it was boring work. Retrograde also told me I wasn't allowed. He never lets me have any fun.

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@Keenan 

 

It's true that from the outsiders perspective, it's not easy to make an educated guess about who's committing new classes and methods in your code repository and who's adding the method comments. But if I could make a guess is that ever since Sindusk came, many new things got implemented. If said policies you mentioned have been in place for all that time, then clearly the positive changes that Sindusk's anti-policy attitude brought indicate that your team probably needs disruptors and not bureaucrats. I think the community's reaction is screaming that to your ears. You speak of policies as if it's something sacred and violating them is the crime of the century. Who put those policies in place ? People did. Ordinary people. Clearly not very successful ones cause if they were, we wouldn't wait for so many years to get a "Sindusk" but we'd get one every couple of months. Your argument reminds me of the middle ages where science said that earth is flat and whoever went against that policy would get severely punished.

 

So instead of judging people, maybe it's high time you gentlemen start judging policies.

 

An ode to Sindusk and to the crazy ones ... ;)

 

 

 

PS: change your location from your avatar, Location: (final String _locale). Only noobs add underscore on their variable names in java.

Edited by Lordbeerus

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On 1/24/2019 at 5:19 AM, Sindusk said:

The first part would be development communication to the players. Certain features and development goals are kept secret with poor reason. Major changes can be implemented with players reading about them during the patch notes while the server is down. Without going into detail, Tower Chaining was one such feature that was nearly mishandled in this regard. This type of secrecy in the development leads to anxiety for players.

 

What is the future fate of Epic? Should players continue playing there? If they place a new deed on Elevation, is there a possibility of the map being reset shortly after? How much heads up will be given?

 

All these questions stem from the fact that there is no official statement for plans on the future of Epic. Everything is being done behind closed doors and leads the community to speculate. The players don’t know if there’s a plan for Epic at all. Making sure that content is complete before announcing it is one thing. Leaving the community in a state of anxiety without giving them something to look forward to is a whole different beast.

 

       I experienced one of those changes myself, when i played for 2 years on epic , had the luck to dominate a dragon(that after another secret change to the difficulty to dominate them) and i fed it every day for 1 and half year and managed to get 2 dragons on serenity  and an egg which was ready to pop . I then decide to join JK on elevation and kill the dragons so we get drake for everyone in our village. To our surprise the drop rates were changed behind closed doors and all the work i've done was now worth 5-10% of what it should have been, that after killing the first dragon.

   I then ask the GM's what to do about it and they tell me not to do anything. then the next day the change is official in the patch notes and they say they will refund me some of the drake hide the said dragon should drop on avg, but when i ask about the other 2 dragons he say he can't refund for those as i didn't kill them before the patch note was official. so yeah i was mad for a while, sold the account i was playing on at the time (Gomeo) , quit for a while and tried to forget that it ever happened.

  I got back into the game a while ago, bought another account fully knowing that there will be another one of those changes in the future.

        I really hope they will get they'r stuff together and try not to hurt players with more unexpected changes .

  i think they should have a rule , where any game changing update /decision they make should be delayed for 1 month from announcing it till they execute it. and also provide enough details so we can understand exactly what will change into what.

  

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2 hours ago, Keenan said:

I know all too well how firmly minds become set and how the Internet lacks the level of interaction needed to sway those set minds. I felt this needed to be said, however.

Anyone heard of Paul Harvey's The Rest Of The Story? Here it is by someone who has actually experienced it in this situation. I realize that the pvp champions who have elevated Sindusk to Heroic Champion status will not like to hear it and attempt to discredit it with further hyperbolic statements as have been the theme of this thread.

 

I think Sindusk discovered something about himself here, or had it once again brought to his attention if he already knew it, he is not a team player. Not that I see a great virtue of being one myself but if you are on a team then you must conform to their objectives. If you reread Sindusk's post you will clearly see that he was not willing to do so and left because of this. Yes, it was the right decision but it was not a fault in the team that he was a part of. Now with Keenan's post it becomes more clear to what extent he was unwilling to follow their team policies.

 

Sindusk may have been a good developer/programmer but he is a lone wolf one, not suitable to be part of the Wurm developers. This is why with his WU servers he was able to proceed in the directions that he wanted to go as there was no need to adapt to anyone else's input, much less to be in a lower starting position within a team environment. Perhaps be could even lead a WU server that is a team of a few individuals but I suspect that it would ultimately be a his way or the highway type of situation.

 

As for listening to player input and ideas that is fine but that is not what is expressed within this thread in complaint. What is wanted is for players to run the game and center it around what they feel is important (mainly pvp); thus since a lot Sindusk's focus was upon that aspect they try to exaggerate the effects of his departure as the thread title foolishly proclaims. If you have been around the game for more than a few years you will realize that his short tenure here is far from making a claim to that title, although I respect the fact that Sindusk was wise enough not to make it himself.

 

Developers come and go. Some are more of a loss than others, just depends upon your point of view and in this instance it differs quite a bit. I doubt it will matter much one way or the other.

 

=Ayes=

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3 hours ago, Keenan said:

I know all too well how firmly minds become set and how the Internet lacks the level of interaction needed to sway those set minds. I felt this needed to be said, however.

 

Sindusk added a lot to the game during his tenure, aided by being a volunteer with free reign to work on his vision of what should be. What made Sindusk a great developer here was most certainly his drive, however it was the rest of the team coming together to make up for his inexperience that brought his visions and projects home. Ausimus, DarkLords, Jberg, and Budda helped with bugs and carrying things across the finish line. Alectrys and Retrograde helped test and organize testing to find those bugs. We are a team, and Sindusk was a part of that team. I looked forward to his experience growing and was even hoping to groom him and vouch for him in a contracted position.

 

My only complaint when it came to Sindusk was that he barely tried to be a part of that team. When he disagreed with a standing policy, he simply broke it instead of discussing it. You may think that was wise of him, but those polices stand for a reason. Does anyone remember Sparta? I wasn't there, but boy do I remember the fallout from it. We try very hard to not do anything unilaterally and to ensure our communication channels with players are public and open to ensure another Sparta doesn't happen.

Sindusk had thrown his fellow team members under the bus numerous times without any supporting evidence. When he was spoken to about it, he was apologetic, but that only lasted so long. Even his exit was another thumbed nose at the team that helped him along the way, by not giving us any chance to make a news post. Within minutes of notifying Budda, we were getting PMs about it from players.

 

So while I agree that he did some amazing things for the game and I did enjoy his views on things, I have to adamantly disagree with his method in leaving and his methods of communication during his time. Keep in mind he only communicated with a small segment of the player base regularly. For someone who criticized us about communication, I find this hypocritical.

 

I would also like to thank him and the players who have been actively discussing communication. It's really brought into the light much of the suggestions Retrograde has been making for months now, and I think this event gives him more credit for that.

 

Between Tich and Sindusk, I feel the rest of us have quite a lot of empty space to try and fill. This is not the end of Wurm though, unless you want it to be by continuing to doom-say the game. This is but a ripple. We will continue with updates, with content, and with moving forward.

 

Wurm isn't going anywhere, no matter how many numbers you throw at these forums.

This makes me mad to be honest. I mean, I understand that being a developer makes you biased towards your team since you can see the hard work put up by everyone in it. The issue is no one is saying the team doesn't work hard or that Sindusk was the only one doing good things, but that he was the only one that had the right idea about how the community should be treated

 

No one here cares about developer internal rules. And no one should. Thats your issue for you to deal with. You know very well those rules are what lead you and us to this current mess. Developers not properly hyping the community, GMs handing out bans without reason and a proper investigation... Its been a royal mess.

 

We all love the work you all put in. Wether paid or not, we are love it. Its why we are here. And we all show how much we love it by throwing money at the game. Devs dont get to expect anything from us except paying our subs. Thats the definition of a service. You do the work, and I pay for it.

 

As for you specifically, you are one of those devs that judges the community harshly. You have a lot of expectations and pretend like we owe something to the dev team. Take a step back and look at the events of the last week or so and think to yourself if staff has been doing things right along. Hint: it took your best remaining dev in the team leaving to realize things need to change. 

 

I'm glad you guys are finally seeing that. It only took the best part of you to die off to do it, but you finally got it.

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12 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

No one here cares about developer internal rules. And no one should.

You may be right, but everyone here is very quick to jump to assumptions, and Keenan was just providing some insight into how a team should work as a team, it's not everyone with their own projects for themselves.

Myself I found out about Sindusk quitting from this forum thread, so that speaks for itself. Are you a part of a team if players know about you quitting before the rest of that team does?

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No different than your enemy kingdom knowing you are banned before you do?

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24 minutes ago, Samool said:

You may be right, but everyone here is very quick to jump to assumptions, and Keenan was just providing some insight into how a team should work as a team, it's not everyone with their own projects for themselves.

Myself I found out about Sindusk quitting from this forum thread, so that speaks for itself. Are you a part of a team if players know about you quitting before the rest of that team does?

Well, he did quit, so he wasnt part of the team anymore! ;)

 

No but in all seriousness, I am going to flip it on you: Do you think its fair other players find out you've been banned before you do? We all know communication has been a big issue and thats why all the changes being made are being made. A lot of us still have a bitter taste from this situation. I for one used to be very supportive of the team, and since this happened I have been making rather critical messages. Communication has and still is an issue and players like I want to see real change before it is all done and spoken for.

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I don't think it's fair, the changes to fix that are ongoing. It is, however, unfair to compare staff-staff and staff-community communication - both are very important but they are very different, and I just wanted to mention how he failed at the former one.

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45 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

This makes me mad to be honest.

Not really sure how Keenan's post you quoted made you honestly mad. I think though that there is a lot more to your being mad at him than that post and you are just using it in some undecipherable attempt to enforce your exaggerated statements made further on such as:

48 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

but that he (Sindusk) was the only one that had the right idea about how the community should be treated

 

51 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

it took your best remaining dev in the team leaving to realize things need to change

 

51 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

It only took the best part of you to die off to do it, but you finally got it

I mean do you really believe what you are stating here? You don't seem delusional to me so I can only conclude that you are just making use of Sindusk's departure to express other grievances in an indirect manner. And then you state that they finally got your points made here. I don't see any agreements by the Developers that they "got" anything of the sort, nor that the rest of the development team doesn't have these attributes that you want to attempt to apply to Sindusk exclusively. Unfortunately that's what this thread has devolved into. Maybe there was some sincerity in it initially but it was quickly used as a front for other purposes. A presumptuous falsehood of sand attempted to be expanded upon with absurd claims such as you have made only diminishes what positive contributions Sindusk may have made. Simply put, you speak a lot of nonsense.

 

=Ayes=

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8 minutes ago, Samool said:

I don't think it's fair, the changes to fix that are ongoing.

 

So, you're going to disallow staff to play the PvP game?

 

9 minutes ago, Samool said:

It is, however, unfair to compare staff-staff and staff-community communication - both are very important but they are very different, and I just wanted to mention how he failed at the former one.

 

I fail to see how it is unfair in the slightest way in that context. Let me help you understand it, by putting them in the correct order of events;
 

Your team banned many players, and other players (Specifically the ENEMY kingdom of the one banned) knew before those players themselves did. - This suggests not only that some GM or multiple GMs revealed information pertaining to internal "staff interactions" to normal everyday players, but also that you don't care enough to inform those players. Clearly this leak of information happened through private channel, since the information is known only to a few players, and is not available publicly.

 

Sindusk left staff, and other players knew before you did. - This seems to me, knowing the context behind it, to be a sort of backlash where you are allowed to taste your own medicine. Spiteful, and maybe unnecessary, but it's not harmful to anyone. This doesn't genuinely set any one person back, doesn't potentially risk virtual assets or mean that anyone could be killed/raided. The collateral from him doing something like this is extremely negligible but it was probably meant to serve as a token of your own incompetence and hypocritical ideology pertaining to the above situation.

 

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23 minutes ago, Ayes said:

Not really sure how Keenan's post you quoted made you honestly mad. I think though that there is a lot more to your being mad at him than that post and you are just using it in some undecipherable attempt to enforce your exaggerated statements made further on such as:

 

 

I mean do you really believe what you are stating here? You don't seem delusional to me so I can only conclude that you are just making use of Sindusk's departure to express other grievances in an indirect manner. And then you state that they finally got your points made here. I don't see any agreements by the Developers that they "got" anything of the sort, nor that the rest of the development team doesn't have these attributes that you want to attempt to apply to Sindusk exclusively. Unfortunately that's what this thread has devolved into. Maybe there was some sincerity in it initially but it was quickly used as a front for other purposes. A presumptuous falsehood of sand attempted to be expanded upon with absurd claims such as you have made only diminishes what positive contributions Sindusk may have made. Simply put, you speak a lot of nonsense.

 

=Ayes=

There are relevant facts related to this incident you are not privy to it seems, and thats where my message stems from. I am not delusional. I get upset when I see staff pretending like the house is not on fire.

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I feel like this thread is going off topic, however staff clearly need to fix some policies regarding bans, being more transparent and open to players. This is good, that were getting some transparency now. It's really annoying to see after all the damage was done them trying to fix and adhere to new policies and rules as fast as possible though. I realize it was mentioned that this was Retrograde's project, but that was never mentioned publicly until this thread. This is life I guess, I've seen it so many times in the past. History repeats itself.

 

#makewurmgreatagainaddhousecats2019

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5 minutes ago, Niki said:

This is good, that were getting some transparency now.

 

What transparency, exactly, did any GM provide the public eye that wasn't already leaked by another player? There are still players that know more about this ban than any GM will post information about publicly. (because it's kept private)

We still do not know who was banned, how long that ban will be for, or the reason an ENTIRE LOCAL LIST was blanket-banned (pretty much a first in wurm history).

They haven't done ####. They haven't changed a goddamned thing, that thread only came up, a whole DAY after there were essentially riots on this forum. That doesn't seem transparent to me. Seems more like interacting with a ####ing brick wall.

Edited by whereami

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1 minute ago, whereami said:

 

What transparency, exactly, did any GM provide the public eye that wasn't already leaked by another player?

We still do not know who was banned, how long that ban will be for, or the reason an ENTIRE LOCAL LIST was blanket-banned (pretty much a first in wurm history).

They haven't done ####. They haven't changed a goddamned thing, that thread only came up, a whole DAY after there were essentially riots on this forum. That doesn't seem transparent to me. Seems more like interacting with a ####ing brick wall.

I agree, they need to do more. Good post.

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3 minutes ago, whereami said:

 

What transparency, exactly, did any GM provide the public eye that wasn't already leaked by another player?

We still do not know who was banned, how long that ban will be for, or the reason an ENTIRE LOCAL LIST was blanket-banned (pretty much a first in wurm history).

They haven't done ####. They haven't changed a goddamned thing, that thread only came up, a whole DAY after there were essentially riots on this forum. That doesn't seem transparent to me. Seems more like interacting with a ####ing brick wall.

Calm you #### bro. Give them a moment to finish their investigation. As of yesterday Capi was still sorting things. Give them time to get their facts together, finish their investigation and post. This is what we as a community want. I rather them take their time and get things right before they release anything.

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1 minute ago, Angelklaine said:

Calm you #### bro. Give them a moment to finish their investigation. As of yesterday Capi was still sorting things. Give them time to get their facts together, finish their investigation and post. This is what we as a community want. I rather them take their time and get things right before they release anything.

 

I am quite calm, perhaps my manner of emphasis could lead you to think otherwise, but I assure you I have absolutely zero stake in the situation. I am not a member of either of the kingdoms heavily involved in this, nor would I ever be. I simply want to see this game move forward in a manner that is unbiased, especially when it comes to PvP. GM rulings on PvP servers have always been subject to unnecessary sketchiness and the scrutiny that follows suit.

 

Sure, they can take their time in the handling of the manner. But where is the report on what you have already done? Surely there has been a number of actions already taken by the team, which is the reason for the upset player voices in the first place. It cannot be that difficult, to list out the actions taken against what members of the playerbase as they happen - In my opinion this should be required.

 

Also, shouldn't we have finished an investigation before punishments are divvied out? Innocent until proven guilty in court, right?

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1 minute ago, whereami said:

 

I am quite calm, perhaps my manner of emphasis could lead you to think otherwise, but I assure you I have absolutely zero stake in the situation. I am not a member of either of the kingdoms heavily involved in this, nor would I ever be. I simply want to see this game move forward in a manner that is unbiased, especially when it comes to PvP. GM rulings on PvP servers have always been subject to unnecessary sketchiness and the scrutiny that follows suit.

 

Sure, they can take their time in the handling of the manner. But where is the report on what you have already done? Surely there has been a number of actions already taken by the team, which is the reason for the upset player voices in the first place. It cannot be that difficult, to list out the actions taken against what members of the playerbase as they happen - In my opinion this should be required.

 

Also, shouldn't we have finished an investigation before punishments are divvied out? Innocent until proven guilty in court, right?

 

i think i even reported myself like an hour prior to the raid ban, because if targeting floors/ceilings in adjacent caves and strongwalling is all of a sudden considered an exploit based on who its used upon, i'll take the heat for it to avoid a blanket ban on people that weren't even logged in. Apparently admitting my fault wasn't enough for 20+ people to not be banned

 

 a week after i reported myself everyones banned because the investigation was "inconclusive and they didn't know who was at fault" but since so many people got banned for no reason they reopened lol

 

totally off topic from the main point of this thread, but there you go

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That was a known exploit that I attempted to report to Sindusk personally because I did not trust that it would be handled properly if a report was sent through other individuals. I feared it may not be fixed immediately and then potentially be used by someone down the road.

I am pretty sure I discussed that with him and yourself both present in the discord channel. To say that you didn't know it was an exploit is, I think, a bit of a stretch. But I admire your willingness to step up to the plate and accept blame for your actions.

 

Seeing as I now know the reason this bug did not get fixed, being mostly a reflection of poor policy in regards to handling game-breaking-bug reports from players, I don't blame Sindusk for its persisting presence in the game but rather those who attempted to stop him from fixing it.

Only question that really remains in my mind is, what happened to the plethora of other bugs that were discussed with him on that day? Is the same thing imminent with those bugs, but maybe a week or two down the road?

 

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1 minute ago, whereami said:

That was a known exploit that I attempted to report to Sindusk personally because I did not trust that it would be handled properly if a report was sent through other individuals. I feared it may not be fixed immediately and then potentially be used by someone down the road.

I am pretty sure I discussed that with him and yourself both present in the discord channel. To say that you didn't know it was an exploit is, I think, a bit of a stretch. But I admire your willingness to step up to the plate and accept blame for your actions.

 

Seeing as I now know the reason this bug did not get fixed, being mostly a reflection of poor policy in regards to handling game-breaking-bug reports from players, I don't blame Sindusk for its persisting presence in the game but rather those who attempted to stop him from fixing it.

Only question that really remains in my mind is, what happened to the plethora of other bugs that were discussed with him on that day? Is the same thing imminent with those bugs, but maybe a week or two down the road?

 

 

they get fixed as they get used and as players get banned

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Quite unfortunate, and reflects very badly on the game. But you're wholly correct in that statement.

Would love to see this remedied as it is one of the major pitfalls of PvP as the game stands.

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How about we stop trying to get each other banned tho? Its a common trend nowdays. Someone gets raided and the other teams runs to the devs trying to get everyone on the other side banned, leaving the staff trying to figure out whats what.

 

Then people wonder why pvp is so dead.

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38 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

How about we stop trying to get each other banned tho? Its a common trend nowdays. Someone gets raided and the other teams runs to the devs trying to get everyone on the other side banned, leaving the staff trying to figure out whats what.

 

Then people wonder why pvp is so dead.

That's never gonna happen Angel. Certain people would rather win than keep the game alive. It's in their scummy nature.

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59 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

How about we stop trying to get each other banned tho? Its a common trend nowdays. Someone gets raided and the other teams runs to the devs trying to get everyone on the other side banned, leaving the staff trying to figure out whats what.

 

Then people wonder why pvp is so dead.

 

20 minutes ago, Gladiator said:

That's never gonna happen Angel. Certain people would rather win than keep the game alive. It's in their scummy nature.

 

Look who is calling the kettle black, didn't WU actively try to get TC banned very recently for using freedom mechanics to get out of a cave network on deed? TC had nothing to do with WU bans recently either, I'm very honest about this also.

 

When it comes down to it is the lack of transparency that creates these aggressive notions between kingdoms. The staff should, and probably will mention why people have been banned from now on like right after bans are placed. It probably wont fix the hate (which is very stupid and immature to me) but if your above the age of 25 you probably wont be such a brat about it thinking the enemy is the root of all evil.

 

At the end of the day if Wurm is causing you stress I have to ask why even play it? You all sound really stressed over a game this isn't healthy.

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