Quicktor

Farewell to the greatest Dev

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Thank you Sindusk for all your hard work and contributions to the game. Best of luck to you in your future endeavours. All the best.

 

:)

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Thanks for your efforts to better the game we hold so dear Sir Sindusk, may you find success in your future endeavors.

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Folks, please keep KvK posting to Theatre.  This is not the place for attacks, PvP banter, etc.

 

Thank you.

  Pandalet (Assistant Lead Forum Moderator)

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16 hours ago, Budda said:

 

The policy is specifically to do with pvp players talking to developers in back channel PMs or messages. There has been a long history of accusations of one kingdom or another having the ear of a dev and getting their requests implemented into the game because it benefits them over another kingdom. These accusations still happen to this day. Limiting those communications stop that sort of thing from happening. The forums exist for a reason, the suggestions forum and bug forum exist for a reason. If everything is discussed openly in these sections then the accusations of bias towards one kingdom or another are baseless.

 

Still waiting for a response on why this policy was so heavily enforced upon Sindusk but not even mentioned to virtually ANY other staff in the game.

Clearly you understand the consequences for allowing such things to occur, and clearly you deem it as a bad thing or you'd not claim to try and limit these things.

Why is it that you don't like it when Sindusk communicates with the PvP community as a whole, when Devs like Darklords and Ausimus for example are allowed not just to talk to them but actually play there, and have any number of unrestricted conversations they like?

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1 hour ago, Quicktor said:

thats not even the biggest problem with the handling of recent events, there were other groups exploiting their way out of mines and such a few weeks prior, and it unfortunately seems like just because they wore a different tabard they got away with it...

 

I saw that develop, and this has been my general impression:

 

Scenario #1) Top-end toons use an exploit to escape almost certain death, thus saving high-end gear from being looted;

Scenario #2) Someone used an exploit to loot high-end gear.

 

The practical outcome of both scenarios is, as far as I can see, identical: tampering with the transfer of loot. Yet, the rules enforcement so far appears to be this:

 

1) No one was banned.

2) Everyone in local was banned.

 

As an outsider, the enforcement appears, at best, wildly inconsistent. The fact that the enforcement decisions benefited the same kingdom on each occasion is suspicious, and the beginning of a pattern in my own mind (independent of any other history I may have heard).

 

I note that while this may seem somewhat oblique to the OP, Retro has already commented on banning in this thread, Sindusk seems to have left at least in part due to this general issue, and the developers/GMs have not provided an official thread for these discussions.

 

If they do, I'd be happy to transfer this conversation there.

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Playing with PvPers is fine, talking with PvPers is fine. 

 

Using pm's to implement ideas and suggestions bypassing the public discussion system are not. 

 

It's fine for players to share ideas with devs, but the response will be "that sounds cool, post about it on the forums" 

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1 minute ago, Retrograde said:

Playing with PvPers is fine, talking with PvPers is fine. 

 

Using pm's to implement ideas and suggestions bypassing the public discussion system are not. 

 

It's fine for players to share ideas with devs, but the response will be "that sounds cool, post about it on the forums" 

 

Uh-huh. Well there's certainly still some fairly large holes in that ideology. What stops me from pointing a dev to a thread that I've made in PM? If I "have their ear" as Budda puts it then, it still hit the public board first. Plausible deniability, right?

I personally fail to see how Sindusk bypassed the public discussion system at all. In fact, as far as I am aware, he utilized every single channel you all even have to exchange discussion with your players, far more than any other developer ever has.

It seems like a "rule" that can be twisted to suit the moment, to me personally.

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That's perfectly fine, that's still going via public discussion, pointing a dev to a thread you made, they have every right to read through it and discuss it as they see fit. But if an update comes in with it and players are upset, there's a trail of "here it was suggested and discussed" 

 

Just to be clear, he was only warned against bringing up suggestions in dev chat that did not go through public channels, this was not disallowing him from speaking with players. 

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The problem then I think lies with the fact that you do not have someone retroactively checking those discussions and monitoring them to see who was actually involved.

This is where the perception of bias in staff I believe stems from.

 

Let me propose some hypothetical for you with the following predication;

Kingdom A and Kingdom B exist on a PvP server somewhere.

Kingdom A has a developer member (Whom we will name Developer C), Kingdom B does not.

Kingdom B is smaller in size than Kingdom A. (lets say, half the size, for simplicity)

 

Members from Kingdom A post a suggestion thread to alter a mechanic in a way that would obviously benefit them.

Kingdom A members discuss, all giving positive upvotes. Meanwhile the smaller Kingdom B has less members, almost all of whom oppose the suggestion openly.

Kingdom A members then link Developer C to this thread, where the "majority" of posts are in the positive.

Because Kingdom B lacks sufficient population and resources to create the necessary pushback against the suggestion to be deemed the majority, the suggestion is then implemented.

 

This creates, at the very least, a facade of some form of bias to an outside onlooker.

 

Better strategies could be developed by your team then, to address this as an issue, and it really isnt a hard one to solve.

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You're assuming that it's implemented based on positive or negative support and that we don't lack the knowledge to identify when a suggestion is being "pushed" 

 

When a (particularly PvP) based suggestion is posted, it's quite easy to know who is in what kingdom and the comments often reflect that, it isnt a numbers game as you suggest, and it doesn't matter if there's 100 +1's if it's a bad suggestion. 

 

Players are free to input their side, we don't look at is as "well 10 people like it, but one person points out it's got the potential of allowing absolute destruction, but hey, majority rules!" All input is weighed and considered, and we strongly suggest giving more than just +1 or -1 "I'm commander shephard and I endorse this suggestion" doesnt really help us determine why you feel about that, a sentence explaining why you like it, or what you dislike or how you fear it's effects go a lot further. Devolving into "typical x kingdom bias" doesn't help us either, so avoid that too. Keeping it constructive and clear helps us identify the pros and cons of a suggestion from players perspective. 

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1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

You're assuming that it's implemented based on positive or negative support and that we don't lack the knowledge to identify when a suggestion is being "pushed"

 

I'm suggesting that from what myself and quite a few others have voiced here, there seems to be concern about the judgement involved. It's not a very transparent process in itself, you know? Occasionally we'll get a random dev to post in a thread "It'll be in next tuesday" or something akin, but we're rarely told why or how you came to those conclusions. This doesn't seem to be limited to the development aspect of the game, but a recurring theme throughout the handlings of various matters. As an example there is currently an ongoing "phantom ban-wave" that we've still not heard a wink about unless I've missed something official somewhere.

 

EDIT: I grant that the time frame you gave still gives you about 10 hours, but it already seems there are some players that know much more about the situation than even you provided in your statement. You can't toss the salad and eat it too, I understand things happen one at a time, but providing documentation or something that can be referenced for actions taken isn't hard to do.

Edited by whereami

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13 hours ago, Retrograde said:

It's hard to give a statement about epic because our focus is on other areas to improve the general retention and population, such as UI, journal, tutorial, and many other aspects. As you can see we've nailed a few down but the next few will be more backend, including overhauling certain existing code to improve desync and such.

 

As for epic, it's there and we have zero plans to remove it. HotA rework should still be happening and have dev support, just like ongoing priest tweaks. 

 

We know epic is quiet, but we also know there is a playerbase on it that are invested and continue to be so, if we make any decisions regarding its removal or any changes we will let you all know well in advance. 

 

 

I'll double emphasize a statement here. "It's hard to give a statement about epic because our focus is on other areas to improve the general retention and population" . 

 

I can understand that in the long run. But it's not hard to give a statement on epic. The mass exodus of the last 100 players left on epic when freedom transfers kicked in says it all. I have been paying upkeep for my deed on epic for a year since then and i have no villagers that play there. I've seen 3-4 people left on epic that have one goal, and that is to raid and disband the rest of the remaining deeds on epic for a few coppers .That's the state on Epic. No one plays there. Do you know why? Bad mechanics aside, is because All those 100 players that left, including myself had the same "gut feeling" and that is : Because you have ignored epic, so shall we.  Because no news about Epic being closed down or not have been given to us, no road map, we all naturally assumed the worst due to "silence".

 

It's our natural instinct as human beings when someone is silent towards us we must expect bad news. This Epic mass exodus to freedom was the said result of that instinct + a few other things, on a collective level. How long do I and the few remaining 3-4 players on Epic have to pay for deeds with no villagers? 

 

Can't you see that having a dead server actually does more harm than good? Because new players come to epic,. ask the same question over and over again "Is anyone there?" and when they are met with silence? They leave. Thus keeping the cycle full tilt. There is absolutely no motivation to play on epic whatsoever now.  There is nothing on Epic that makes it unique anymore save the fact is has 50% faster timers. That's it. Sorry guys, But for me and many of us Epic got the final nail in the coffin when transfers kicked in. Can we please bury this corpse now? Or shall we let it rot for years to come so more and more players play on epic for a day and quit the game.

 

Joining a server with no players tells a new player 1 thing and 1 thing only : This game has no players. 

 

That is not a good business decision..

 

 

Also, sorry to see you leave Sindusk, we never talked but the way people talk about you, wish we had been friends. Take care, fare winds to you.

Edited by elentari
grammar

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Losing Sindusk from the team was very unfortunate for us players. Truly a once in a decade fortune for games like wurm.  Due to their nature, games like wurm appeal to special individuals (us) that is a minority of the player base. As a result, games like wurm can't generate enough money to pay for dedicated long-lasting professional developers. Add to that the support the code requires due to the complexity of the game and you get a good recipe for disaster. We still have good developers, just not many enough to handle the requirements imposed by the needs of the code and the community. And that I believe won't change.

 

What I get form Sindusk's post is the feelings of someone willing to contribute but who always got obstacles in front of him from bad staff members. Bad staff members drive away capable staff and creative players by their actions and by their decisions. Over the years I tried to analyze this situation in wurm and I concluded in the formation of an axiom, I call the Enki Paradox. Enki's a great staff member. Never loses his temper and never breaks character whatever ###### we do in forums an in game. Clearly capable of leading the team. Taking as a fact that moderating this community comes without any payment though, and the fact that this community is a little bit special with it's drama and it's needs, one could see why no mentally stable individual would join this team. This forms the Enki Paradox:

 

The Enki Paradox: The reason why a capable leadership can't seem to be able to recruit capable staff, is because no capable and mentally stable person would bother moderating this type of community ... for free, for long. 

 

That's why so many staff members are here just for the authority the position gives them to impose their version of the world on others. So all in all bad staffers -> bad players -> even worse staffers -> worse players -> great staff members leave due to either one of those groups of people. 

 

In the words of commissioner Gordon from The Dark Knight,

Batman is the hero Gotham deserves but doesn't need right now.

 

Sindusk was the hero Wurm will never deserve, but will always needed. 

 

Edited by Lordbeerus

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5 hours ago, Retrograde said:

You're assuming that it's implemented based on positive or negative support and that we don't lack the knowledge to identify when a suggestion is being "pushed" 

 

When a (particularly PvP) based suggestion is posted, it's quite easy to know who is in what kingdom and the comments often reflect that, it isnt a numbers game as you suggest, and it doesn't matter if there's 100 +1's if it's a bad suggestion. 

 

Players are free to input their side, we don't look at is as "well 10 people like it, but one person points out it's got the potential of allowing absolute destruction, but hey, majority rules!" All input is weighed and considered, and we strongly suggest giving more than just +1 or -1 "I'm commander shephard and I endorse this suggestion" doesnt really help us determine why you feel about that, a sentence explaining why you like it, or what you dislike or how you fear it's effects go a lot further. Devolving into "typical x kingdom bias" doesn't help us either, so avoid that too. Keeping it constructive and clear helps us identify the pros and cons of a suggestion from players perspective. 

I think you need to resign, not Sindusk lmao.  like I've pvped with you on Epic and think you're a good dude. But you really don't understand the pvp aspect of this game at all man. You're killing PvP. Find players that have pvped, that no longer pvp. or I'm sure there are plenty of players that would be more than willing to make a sacrifice to quit pvp to save the pvp side of this game.   But your updates are doing nothing for the future of this game if you aren't fixing the real issues.

 

 

And for Sindusk, you'll definitely be missed man!

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Wimblonian said:

 

I think you need to resign, not Sindusk lmao.  like I've pvped with you on Epic and think you're a good dude. But you really don't understand the pvp aspect of this game at all man. You're killing PvP. Find players that have pvped, that no longer pvp. or I'm sure there are plenty of players that would be more than willing to make a sacrifice to quit pvp to save the pvp side of this game.   But your updates are doing nothing for the future of this game if you aren't fixing the real issues.

 

 

And for Sindusk, you'll definitely be missed man!

 

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Wimblonian said:

 

I think you need to resign, not Sindusk lmao.  like I've pvped with you on Epic and think you're a good dude. But you really don't understand the pvp aspect of this game at all man. You're killing PvP. Find players that have pvped, that no longer pvp. or I'm sure there are plenty of players that would be more than willing to make a sacrifice to quit pvp to save the pvp side of this game.   But your updates are doing nothing for the future of this game if you aren't fixing the real issues.

 

 

And for Sindusk, you'll definitely be missed man!

 

 

 

 

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 I have to say it's a shame to see sindusk go. Having spoke with him a few times, he did present a hope for the better and fresh blood behind the scenes is what WURMonline needs. All in all the dev department needs to be REFRESHED. This on ROLF for letting it go a stray for  as long as it has. Opinions are opinions though.           PEACEout Sindusk!!!!!!!

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rip Sindusk and thank you for your time.

 

@elentari Almost everything you said, except some the transfer stuff, couldn't be any farther from the truth. Desertion was abandoned long before the transfer. Just disband your deed and move on. Let epic be epic. I still have yet to see anyone continuously try to disband deeds through repeated and massive drain attempts. If its happening on desertion then it's because MR abandoned it. Step up and defend yourself instead of whining about it. Some of us just live with the Dev decisions even if we don't agree. People who don't play there should stop making suggestions for it.

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On 1/24/2019 at 3:54 AM, Wilczan said:

It's hard to speak about delays where there are no plans (like for Epic) or we just don't know them couse of lack of share of information.

Be patient. We only started asking for an update/clarification/proposed path forward more then a year ago.

 

It takes time to have a vision apparently.

 

"Actions speak louder then words" - Good words to measure the responses by.

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On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 4:43 PM, whereami said:

The problem then I think lies with the fact that you do not have someone retroactively checking those discussions and monitoring them to see who was actually involved.

This is where the perception of bias in staff I believe stems from.

 

Let me propose some hypothetical for you with the following predication;

Kingdom A and Kingdom B exist on a PvP server somewhere.

Kingdom A has a developer member (Whom we will name Developer C), Kingdom B does not.

Kingdom B is smaller in size than Kingdom A. (lets say, half the size, for simplicity)

 

Members from Kingdom A post a suggestion thread to alter a mechanic in a way that would obviously benefit them.

Kingdom A members discuss, all giving positive upvotes. Meanwhile the smaller Kingdom B has less members, almost all of whom oppose the suggestion openly.

Kingdom A members then link Developer C to this thread, where the "majority" of posts are in the positive.

Because Kingdom B lacks sufficient population and resources to create the necessary pushback against the suggestion to be deemed the majority, the suggestion is then implemented.

 

This creates, at the very least, a facade of some form of bias to an outside onlooker.

 

Better strategies could be developed by your team then, to address this as an issue, and it really isnt a hard one to solve.

 

This is like asking players to find exploits for the game and report them...

How many will do so , if they can find they can use it to there own benefit ?

Like all games there is no right or wrong as players see it ..

It's what they believe is right in there eyes ...

Devs should play the game , both sides , but its hard for them to stay one sided wen you know you area about to get you're as handed to you from another faction ..

How many could or would go ahead with there plans if you knew you were going to fail ...

This discussion will keep going around in circles till you are blue in the face , at what point will people decide what is right or wrong ?

 

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Fair you well Sindusk

Great to have known you during my short time playing

 

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