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Eldurian

Make Scythes A Better Weapon

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Posted (edited)

https://gyazo.com/8f7ad1fc02f684e7142ef1feafcd612b

So this picture is a direct side by side comparison of Scythes and Halberds. Of course the Halberd bonus against charging opponents isn't even shown, and even without it's a significantly better weapon. No skill penalty, better parry, longer reach, the only downside is a slightly lower crit chance.

However the latest round of updates has given the ability to make a very flavorful buff to Scythes. 

For those who remember the days before statuettes Scythes were the channeling object of Libila in the days of old, and are still prominently featured in most depictions of her. With the new spell "Essence Drain" there is now a spell available to her priests that drains health.

I suggest giving scythes a benefit that when they have Essence Drain cast on they have a bonus to the quantity of health stolen. Pure RP flavor, but come on, it would be awesome, and it wouldn't make them OP in any way unless you way overdid the bonus. Just less trash. 

Edited by Eldurian

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Do they not have really high crit chance?

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According the chance Halberd has 1.20% crit chance and scythes 1.60%.

So Scythes have a 0.40% crit chance advantage.

VS. 2 Skill penalty, 1 shorter reach, no bonus against charging enemies and 20% parry chance vs. 100% (I'm assuming that's a % of normal parry rate).

The downsides seem to far outweigh that one upside.

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remove the CR nerf on all weapons while you do this.

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2 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

isnt a scythe a tool

does it have to be? 51bbfc08fd300b0b9dd00ac48079071a.png

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The Scythe is a tool but so is the sickle which is commonly used as a weapon. It takes weaponsmithing to improve like the sickle so it's a tool/weapon.

Given it's strong association with Libila and the numerous depictions of her wielding one (her colossus, tapestry of evening, her statuette etc.) I would love to wield one as a priest of Libila. But it's far too underpowered to justify wasting time training in it.

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id like to see this but a separate crafting item classed as a weapon that is two handed. not sure if the current one is but i think it would be neat for it to be its own crafting recipe and model meant more for battle.

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6 hours ago, Nioras said:

id like to see this but a separate crafting item classed as a weapon that is two handed. not sure if the current one is but i think it would be neat for it to be its own crafting recipe and model meant more for battle.

+1 for war scythe

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Posted (edited)

Farming tool is not a weapon just because you can use it as one. A brick is a weapon too then and should bash harder than mauls since they weigh more.

Edited by armyskin

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4 hours ago, armyskin said:

Farming tool is not a weapon just because you can use it as one. A brick is a weapon too then and should bash harder than mauls since they weigh more.

 

But it is a weapon. When you improve a Scythe the skill required and raised is weaponsmithing. Unlike say a shovel, saw, pickaxe, hatchet etc. which are raised by usage of blacksmithing.

That makes it more comparable to the sickle, which while it can be used to gather sprouts flowers etc. is also one of the heaviest damage 1h weapons.

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The only reason you use weapon smithing for it is because of the blade. i mean carving knives are weps too but i would like to see an all metal scythe as a weapon.

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Posted (edited)

Carving/Butcher's knife are weapons like the scythe, just very underpowered ones as well. If the blade were the defining factor a leatherworking knife would also be a weapon. Which it is not, it improves with blacksmithing.

Carving/Butcher's knives on the other hand used to have special moves specific to them back when special moves were determined by categories like sword and maul rather than blunt and slash, and even their own weapon category (knives).


I imagine the reason they are so underpowered is they were meant to have application in dual wielding, and then dual wielding got nerfed into oblivion.

But scythe, carving knife, and butcher's knives are really all just just underloved weapon/tools that were meant to be viable but forgotten. The sickle is the example of what they all could and should be.

Edited by Eldurian

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19 hours ago, Eldurian said:

The Scythe is a tool but so is the sickle which is commonly used as a weapon. It takes weaponsmithing to improve like the sickle so it's a tool/weapon.

 

Sickles have a CR penalty the same as scythes. The reason people use sickles in spite of that penalty is that their DPS is absolutely bonkers high.

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Posted (edited)

All you really need to understand the difference between weapons and tools is this:

The hatchet.

The hatchet did not used to exist in game. When I started Wurm it was a small axe. It functioned as both a weapon and had every function that hatchet currently has. You actually got a small axe as a part of your newbie toolkit, not a hatchet.

Later on they were separated into two items. The hatchet and small axe.

The small axe retained weaponsmithing as it's governing skill. It kept it's combat stats and lost it's function as a tool. 

The hatchet, having been nerfed in all stats that made it a semi-viable weapon, became a blacksmithing item now improved by blacksmithing. Despite "having a blade" and essentially being identical to a small axe in every way except function.

Small Axe > Weapon = Weaponsmithing
Hatchet > Tool Only = Blacksmithing

If it is improved with weaponsmithing, one of its intended uses is to be used as a weapon.

If it is improved by blacksmithing it's purely a tool.

Edited by Eldurian

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6 minutes ago, Eldurian said:

If it is improved with weaponsmithing, one of its intended uses is to be used as a weapon.

 

Carving knives, butchering knives, sickles, scythes, and sacrificial knives all use Weapon Smithing as the crafting skill, but are intended to be used as tools and have a CR penalty when used as weapons.

 

I think those constitute enough counter-examples to disprove your assumption, although it would be nice if the skills were more uniform.

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Posted (edited)

Like I pointed out. Carving knives and butchering knives used to have special moves that required you to be wielding one. That's why the carver is called the carver. It used to be done with a carving knife.

I think THAT disproves your assumption they aren't meant to be used as weapons. You don't make special attacks for tools. On that grounds I would dismiss your evidence. 

 

Sacrificial knives are just butcher's knives, the even use the same skill.

All we have left is scythes and sickles.

Sickles are a viable weapon.

So my takeaway from that is CR penalty does not automatically mean it should never be used as a weapon. It seems more to be a measure to attempt to balance the fact you can skill dual purpose weapons by using them as tools (For instanced sickles are my 2nd highest weapon skill and I've never used one as a weapon). It's also worth pointing out the Butcher's and Sacrificial knives have a CR penalty of 1 and scythes, sickles, and carving knives a CR penalty of 2. High compared to pure weapons, low compared to most non-weapons.

 

Edited by Eldurian

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[18:58:26] You prepare to perform a High number on mature hell hound!       there is the special move you can do using a hammer. special moves dont make things weapons

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1 hour ago, Eldurian said:

Like I pointed out. Carving knives and butchering knives used to have special moves that required you to be wielding one. That's why the carver is called the carver. It used to be done with a carving knife.

I think THAT disproves your assumption they aren't meant to be used as weapons. You don't make special attacks for tools. On that grounds I would dismiss your evidence.

 

I really, honestly don't think that something like a carving knife is intended to be a viable weapon. It does less DPS than a belaying pin, for god's sake. I would interpret it having its own special attack as more of a novelty than anything.

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That's because special moves have been updated to work specifically for broad categories of items (Slashing, Blunt, Pierce)

Back in the day they worked for limited categories such as sword, axes, mauls... and knives.

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1 minute ago, Eldurian said:

That's because special moves have been updated to work specifically for broad categories of items (Slashing, Blunt, Pierce)

Back in the day they worked for limited categories such as sword, axes, mauls... and knives.

 

I think it's kind of disingenuous to use prior, removed features in order to make an argument for something.

 

There was also once a time when bulk storage didn't exist, but I wouldn't use that as evidence that we aren't intended to keep materials long-term without decay.

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

 

I really, honestly don't think that something like a carving knife is intended to be a viable weapon. It does less DPS than a belaying pin, for god's sake. I would interpret it having its own special attack as more of a novelty than anything.


We've been able to equip a weapon in our offhand slot for forever but it hasn't been viable in years. Knives had their own special attacks but have never been viable. 

I'm guessing the two are related. Seems like features that were added in preparation for coming updates that were put on the backburner (Much like the cape slot in your inventory right now). There is a lot of evidence they've been planning to do more with knives for a long time right down to the fact they have their own weapon category parent skill like polearms, axes, mauls and sword. It all hints to me at a major dual wielding update that Rolf just never got around to.

Edited by Eldurian

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Anyway, while it seems like we'll have to agree to disagree on whether or not all weaponsmithing items are intended to be used as weapons, the more important questions are:

1. Would scythes as a viable weapon be fun?
2. Would it be hard to implement?
3. Is there a good reason not to?


1. I think a lot of people, especially followers and priests of Libila would get a kick out of wielding a Scythe. 
2. The animations and skills already exist. It is simply a matter of adjusting stats and/or adding a bonus like I suggested. 
3. Other then the potential to make them overpowered I can't think of any. 

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