Roccandil

What a misery :(

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Decided to try making a couple new experimental weapons with different sets of enchants, based on the priest update, but I always dread the imping/enchanting experience, and sure enough, no exception this time. :(

 

Failure after imping failure at lower QLs, and then failure after enchanting failure (and I'm only shooting for 80). I've got great skill, Epic curve, lots of buffs, and it doesn't matter. All I'm doing is throwing away time and effort into this fracking one-armed bandit that is Wurm.

 

Why? Why am I putting myself through this? Why am doing something that's so maddening? It can't be good for me. :(

 

And you devs, why the frack are you putting customers in this situation? Why do you persist in telling me my time doesn't matter, that I should be doing something else than playing your game? Because that's really my only recourse: to leave your game, and stop spending money on it.

 

All these updates and gifts are great, but this is the -core- of your game, it's utterly rotten, and you refuse to fix it. :( I'm tired of dreading imping and enchanting, I'm tired of the people who defend it, and I'm ready to ditch Wurm for the next pretty face that comes along.

 

Devs, I'm loyal to games that treat me well, but you're squandering that; good job. :(

 

Yeah, I'm complaining, but when I feel this way, I usually sit on it and cool off. Not this time. You need to know what you're putting your customers, your guests, through.

 

Sigh. :(

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4 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

All I'm doing is throwing away time and effort into this fracking one-armed bandit that is Wurm.

 

Holy ###### you discovered what the point of any game is!

 

I'm guessing you are trying to enchant with a character that has more than 50 channelling and 100 (or -100) alignment within altar influence with no armor equipped? If so you may just need to chill, bill - it is after all just a game and you are not forced to play it in your free time :)

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Give us details. For imping tell me what your skill is, what the curve skill is, what ql your tools are and what ql item are you trying to imp.

 

For enchats, what is your channeling, whats your alignment, whats your gear and where the item you are trying to enchant is placed at.

 

All this matters. Personally I have no issues with my enchants, and I always aim for 90+. Perhaps you are doing something wrong and sharing this info can help us perhaps to spot that.

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I have pretty much left Wurm Online and instead have decided to focus on Wurm Unlimited (Mythmoor) so I can actually learn the deeper game mechanics and enjoy the deeper game content some time in THIS DECADE.  Even with 7x skill and 5x timer, the grind is real but at least bearable.  Maybe that is what you need, to play in a less-stressful, more productive Wurm rule-set.

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Posted (edited)

i mean thats kind of what i like about wurm. tho im doing a challenge to make wurm harder because ive found the life of wurm rather easy and boring atm

Edited by Nioras

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remove shatter and fix dispel. imping should be more interactive like fishing. serious post.

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I like enchanting how it is. Sometimes I hit a 90 power cast sooner, sometimes it takes a while. Would be very bad for the game if you get a 104 Power cast after 5 times trying.

 

So maybe you doing something wrong, or playing as a priest is noting for you.

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Posted (edited)

A massive part of this game is that it is hard and time consuming. It feels like a real achievement to do certain things and when I see someone else's work It feels amazing to know how much effort and time was put into it.

If anything the game should be harder and more complex, not easier.

Edited by kronic

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16 hours ago, Firecat said:

 

Holy ###### you discovered what the point of any game is!

 

What, gambling? I hope not! :)

 

Actually, I've played a significant number of games that weren't gambling-oriented, and I do tend to enjoy those more.

 

16 hours ago, Firecat said:

I'm guessing you are trying to enchant with a character that has more than 50 channelling and 100 (or -100) alignment within altar influence with no armor equipped? If so you may just need to chill, bill - it is after all just a game and you are not forced to play it in your free time :)

 

You're right, I'm not forced to play it. If I were a developer, though, I'd want to avoid my players thinking that way! :)

 

16 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

Give us details. For imping tell me what your skill is, what the curve skill is, what ql your tools are and what ql item are you trying to imp.

 

I have 72 base weapon-smithing (so 92 effective), 90+ QL hammer (including imbue), near 100 QL pelt/whetstone, and the weapon wasn't 80QL yet before I started hitting strings of failures. Imp sizes are still big at that point (and remain so for me until about 86 QL).

 

Of course, tempering uses the item QL as QL, and I was using lump QL close to the item QL.

 

16 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

For enchats, what is your channeling, whats your alignment, whats your gear and where the item you are trying to enchant is placed at.

 

Base 83 channeling (so 97 effective, I think), 100 alignment, 30% bonus listed (in leather, is the buff bar lying?), item is in inventory. Also have decent faith domain (60+) and a deed enchant bonus of 10%+.

 

Another question: if deed enchant bonus is higher than 10%, does any of the extra count? The wiki makes it sound like the max bonus is 10%.

 

16 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

All this matters. Personally I have no issues with my enchants, and I always aim for 90+. Perhaps you are doing something wrong and sharing this info can help us perhaps to spot that.

 

I was only aiming for 80+. :( Ironically, on the five enchants I was trying to complete, four never hit 80: they went straight from 70+ to 90+. (Yeah, I kept enchanting until I hit my goal, despite the frustration.)

 

6 hours ago, kronic said:

A massive part of this game is that it is hard and time consuming. It feels like a real achievement to do certain things and when I see someone else's work It feels amazing to know how much effort and time was put into it.

If anything the game should be harder and more complex, not easier.

 

I agree. To me, though, gambling mechanics go the opposite direction: they make the process stupid simple (as well as aggravating): do exactly the same thing over and over again until it works. That's "hard", in a sense, but it involves no thought; it's a kind of illusion of hard.

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@Roccandilwell it looks to me you are just having bad luck. I cast on freedom with no curve and a 89 channeling priest. Sometimes I try a single cast for a very long time, others I am done with a full weapon in 15m. 

 

 

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I've designed (and released) slot machine games more reliable than wurm's enchanting system XD

 

Seriously, the randomness is more than a little crazy.  I know magic, by lore, is bound by hidden rules, but relying on gaming the rng is a bit extreme...

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12 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

I've designed (and released) slot machine games more reliable than wurm's enchanting system XD

 

Seriously, the randomness is more than a little crazy.  I know magic, by lore, is bound by hidden rules, but relying on gaming the rng is a bit extreme...

 

I think it works well to not make you tread the same path over and over again. It would be boringly predictable if you had something like castpower = skill * <some factor>

They could definitely tone down the variance though, especially for higher skills. (Like surface mining becoming more reliable with skill)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Flubb said:

 

I think it works well to not make you tread the same path over and over again. It would be boringly predictable if you had something like castpower = skill * <some factor>

They could definitely tone down the variance though, especially for higher skills. (Like surface mining becoming more reliable with skill)

 

The process is already boringly predictable: throw veggies at the problem until you get the cast you want.

 

I'd rather casts were hard-tied to your skill: 80 channeling = 80 power casts. That would give an obvious reason to grind the skill as far as possible.

 

Ideally, however, I'd consider things like "safe-casting" versus "wild-casting". If you wanted to safe-cast, you'd get a result near your skill, and never shatter. If you wanted to overcharge/wild-cast, you'd get a wild result, maybe spend more favor in the process (or even select how much extra), and possibly shatter, but also get a chance for a top cast, beyond your skill.

 

Could also have an "efficient cast", where you spend less favor, and get a lower cast (and never shatter).

 

That's only an example (I wouldn't mind an enchant imping system, either), but anything like that sounds more interesting to me than the current slot machine. :)

Edited by Roccandil

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4 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Ideally, however, I'd consider things like "safe-casting" versus "wild-casting". If you wanted to safe-cast, you'd get a result near your skill, and never shatter. If you wanted to overcharge/wild-cast, you'd get a wild result, maybe spend more favor in the process (or even select how much extra), and possibly shatter, but also get a chance for a top cast, beyond your skill.

 

Since we're clearly never gonna be rid of the forced shatter mechanic, one good idea from this is that forced shatter chance never occurs if the current cast is below your skill.  Once you get it above your skill, you get that risked chance.  A bit sad that it would mean even 90 channeling priests can't try to imp over 90 casts without risk of shatter.... but it's better than always having forced shatter (they would have to dispel once it gets over 90, but then they'd be making better use of the pre-existing cast bonus by starting over)

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The thing that got me hating wurm most lately over the years is making bulk like bricks and planks for example. Realisticly you need those in tousands if you wanna do anything fun and serious. Now i don't mind that it takes 2 hours or more to chip 1k bricks but i do mind a lot that during that time i have to midlesly click every couple minutes, it's boring as hell and extremely punishing to players. Since introduction of stills my eyes have oppened in another direction wurm could be going. What if we could build  extremely comlicated and resource demanding sawmills powered by water or wind where you could load logs and after significant time pick up planks, what if we could have labourers contracts, and we could employee npcs to chip bricks, make nails (they would have respected skills at 1 and progress while they are producing so the older contract would be it would gain on value and would be fairly expensive like traders), farmers that would farm deeded farms and harvest them when times come and resaw, we would have to equip them with tools and regulary repair those tools (they would stop when tool dmg is close to 100 though, dont want them to blow it to air). I have toggeled over the idea for quite sometime it could bring quite new flavour to wurm and people would still have option to do it themselves more efficient.

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On 1/2/2019 at 11:40 AM, kronic said:

A massive part of this game is that it is hard and time consuming. It feels like a real achievement to do certain things and when I see someone else's work It feels amazing to know how much effort and time was put into it.

If anything the game should be harder and more complex, not easier.

 

I agree the game should be harder and more complex, and in order to make it more complex I feel that crafting would probably need a lot more depth, for example look at what Kingdom Come Deliverance did with Alchemy. I think its that kind of depth that Wurm needs. For example, instead of right clicking a lump on some tool and turning it into an item with one click, what if you had to use tools like a hammer to beat the lump into the form you want. Not by right clicking the lump and selecting that form, but by actually hitting the lump the right amount of times in the right spots. Do it wrong and you end up with another item which you didn't want. Or if you made a mistake then you have to put the lump back into the forge and reheat it in order to reset it to it's starting state. Then you've got gameplay, with proper failure states, that requires to the player to think about what he's doing (it's really just a recipe system, with steps needing to be done in the correct order in order to get your desired end result). And this example only used a hammer, add some other tools into the mix and you can get a lot more complexity and depth. Imping could possibly be adressed in a similar way, no more right clicking a menu option, but actually using the tool in a certain way on an item in order to get the desired result. Do it wrong and the item takes damage, do it right and you improve the item. Some tools are better suited for this then others, for example you probably can't do much to improve tempering an item, but for hammering you could add more depth (hit the right location, etc), for whetstones perhaps something like having to sharpen the item the correct amount of time, etc.

 

55 minutes ago, kochinac said:

The thing that got me hating wurm most lately over the years is making bulk like bricks and planks for example. Realisticly you need those in tousands if you wanna do anything fun and serious. Now i don't mind that it takes 2 hours or more to chip 1k bricks but i do mind a lot that during that time i have to midlesly click every couple minutes, it's boring as hell and extremely punishing to players. Since introduction of stills my eyes have oppened in another direction wurm could be going. What if we could build  extremely comlicated and resource demanding sawmills powered by water or wind where you could load logs and after significant time pick up planks, what if we could have labourers contracts, and we could employee npcs to chip bricks, make nails (they would have respected skills at 1 and progress while they are producing so the older contract would be it would gain on value and would be fairly expensive like traders), farmers that would farm deeded farms and harvest them when times come and resaw, we would have to equip them with tools and regulary repair those tools (they would stop when tool dmg is close to 100 though, dont want them to blow it to air). I have toggeled over the idea for quite sometime it could bring quite new flavour to wurm and people would still have option to do it themselves more efficient.

 

I completely agree. We need ways to make items in bulk, perhaps by requiring the construction of complex machines like sawmills and whatever other machines we can imagine. The ability to hire npcs (or creatures which can be summoned by priests) to do mundane things for you would also open new interesting gameplay options. Over the last few years many other games have successfully demonstrated such system. It allows the player to spend time doing what he enjoys doing, because he no longer has to do the things he doesn't like doing after investing a lot of time and effort into making that possible. It gives a sense of progression and adds more depth to the game. I think it would be especially interesting if such systems (especially the npc ones) use upkeep other than money, as that gives the option for an entire economy to develop around the required upkeep items. That would also help to compensate for it completely tanking the bulk materials market.

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1 hour ago, Ecrir said:

 

I agree the game should be harder and more complex, and in order to make it more complex I feel that crafting would probably need a lot more depth, for example look at what Kingdom Come Deliverance did with Alchemy. I think its that kind of depth that Wurm needs. For example, instead of right clicking a lump on some tool and turning it into an item with one click, what if you had to use tools like a hammer to beat the lump into the form you want. Not by right clicking the lump and selecting that form, but by actually hitting the lump the right amount of times in the right spots. Do it wrong and you end up with another item which you didn't want. Or if you made a mistake then you have to put the lump back into the forge and reheat it in order to reset it to it's starting state. Then you've got gameplay, with proper failure states, that requires to the player to think about what he's doing (it's really just a recipe system, with steps needing to be done in the correct order in order to get your desired end result). And this example only used a hammer, add some other tools into the mix and you can get a lot more complexity and depth. Imping could possibly be adressed in a similar way, no more right clicking a menu option, but actually using the tool in a certain way on an item in order to get the desired result. Do it wrong and the item takes damage, do it right and you improve the item. Some tools are better suited for this then others, for example you probably can't do much to improve tempering an item, but for hammering you could add more depth (hit the right location, etc), for whetstones perhaps something like having to sharpen the item the correct amount of time, etc.

My thoughts too. Beside pondering about semi automated production i also pondered a lot about crafting and how to bring more immersive realism, basically any item is a recepie of actions that need to do. In specific order, you need to hammer lump couple times to get nails but need to hammer much more times and with much greater skill, after done shaping you need to quench in water, better in oil as it is less chance to break (no, not temper they got that wrong too), and after then tempering which is normalizing material by heating it again after hardening, then sharpen it, and sharpen it every time it gets dull again not randomly hammering, sharpenint, tempering several times, thats ridiculous. Also new fiahing rods bring out another interesting concept which are slots for reels etc which can be expanded to different handles for swords and tools for example which you could replace, complex tools and machinery. Introducing more realistic tools for other proffessions too like shaving horse for carpentry, potery wheel, sharpening wheel, water powered power hammer for faster making tools...

As for npc workers i was thinking that you need to provide them with food and water while they work atleast (the better food the better they work), you need to eqip them with tools and maintain their tools(again the better tools, the better they work), and even with best tools they chip slower then player to give room to players for competition, and ofc they would develop their skills higher making them efficient over time, not sure wether you should pay them some wage in ingame silvers like 10i per action or less as you payed your contract already quite a bit but it would definitely give more room for strategising and thinking instead of mindlesly clicking for sure. Would also open new section of market where players could trade npcs they skilled in certain skills (like with real players you cant skill them in all skills so you have to choose)

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2 hours ago, Ecrir said:

For example, instead of right clicking a lump on some tool and turning it into an item with one click, what if you had to use tools like a hammer to beat the lump into the form you want. Not by right clicking the lump and selecting that form, but by actually hitting the lump the right amount of times in the right spots.

 

Anything requiring twitch skill on the part of the player as well as an abstracted in-game "skill" is a kind of double-whammy. If I have to hit metal precisely in a kind of mini-game to get what I want, then I don't want an abstract "skill" to also matter.

 

I like the idea of removing repetition, but I'm mistrustful of twitchy mechanics (could simply be a new, more frustrating, lag-affected sort of repetition). :)

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30 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

Anything requiring twitch skill on the part of the player as well as an abstracted in-game "skill" is a kind of double-whammy. If I have to hit metal precisely in a kind of mini-game to get what I want, then I don't want an abstract "skill" to also matter.

 

I like the idea of removing repetition, but I'm mistrustful of twitchy mechanics (could simply be a new, more frustrating, lag-affected sort of repetition). :)

 

I dont think it has to be twitchy. For example you could divide the lump into a 3x3 grid at the start, depending on which of the 9 grid sections you click on different things would happen. The shape could change, removing and adding new grid sections as appropriate. Time wise there's no need for issues either, you could hammer it as long as it's hot enough and reheat it if it's no longer hot enough, or reset it with that item which turns metal stuff back in to lumps. From an abstract point of view it's simply a recipe, just like with cooking.

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This is Wurm. It's a grindy and often frustrating game. If you want guaranteed results there are many games out there that give them. if you want instant, guaranteed results Wurm isn't for you. If you enjoy slowly improving your skills, just like real life, then Wurm is for you.

 

(I hate this idea that instant gratification and guaranteed results is a good thing. It's ruined too many games..... and lives.  Slow down, enjoy the ride....)

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59 minutes ago, ChampagneDragon said:

This is Wurm. It's a grindy and often frustrating game. If you want guaranteed results there are many games out there that give them. if you want instant, guaranteed results Wurm isn't for you. If you enjoy slowly improving your skills, just like real life, then Wurm is for you.

 

(I hate this idea that instant gratification and guaranteed results is a good thing. It's ruined too many games..... and lives.  Slow down, enjoy the ride....)

 

I hate this idea that instant gratification and hatred of gambling are somehow the same thing. They're not even close.

 

And digging in Wurm is guaranteed results, of the sort I enjoy. Is digging ruining Wurm? (I have fun digging, but hate surface mining: because wild RNG. How many people would like to see digging work like surface mining?*)

 

Oh, and if I were all about instant gratification, I wouldn't have built this (yes, those are tarwalls):

 

Spoiler

CDIxBEV.jpg

 

* Let me guess, @armyskin will +1 that.

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Honest question: Have you ever considered that what you're choosing to do isn't what you enjoy doing in Wurm?

 

I personally don't enjoy the enchanting grind, though I do have a priest. I enjoy building, and I also don't enjoy the bulk goods creation either.

 

But other people do. And I can purchase bulk goods and enchanted items from those people. This is what the point of Wurm Online is. Not to be a single-player self-sufficient crafting machine, though plenty of people do manage to become this. It's meant to be a game where you find your niche and you become skilled at it.

 

We're always willing to look at mechanics, but the fact is that I'd be hard-pressed to radically change a mechanic without considering the whole picture - which includes the silent group of people who are not represented in this thread. Perhaps one of them being the kindly gentleman I've been purchasing my bulk goods from. :) I'm sure he'd be displeased with some sort of easier/automated way of crafting the goods he sells. Same with people who have spent a lot of time, effort, and obviously money to bring their priests and crafters up to where they can easily and quickly craft high-enchant, high-quality tools and weapons. I'm sure they'd feel like we're throwing their time away by making the system easier and less time-consuming than it's currently intended to be.

 

Like I said though, we are always willing to look. Whether the idea fits with Wurm or we have the resources to implement is another question entirely, but I recommend posting suggestions in the Suggestions forum or up-voting existing ones that jive with what you're feeling.

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9 minutes ago, Keenan said:

But other people do. And I can purchase bulk goods and enchanted items from those people. This is what the point of Wurm Online is.

 

I hear you, but that doesn't seem to exist on Epic. Either I do it, or it doesn't get done (which is why I have multiple priests: not because I enjoy it so much, but because I need the capabilities to do the other things I really want to do).

 

If we could buy Freedom items on Epic, that would make a difference.

 

Anyhow, thanks for jumping into the shark tank on this one. :)

 

Oh, and this:

 

14 minutes ago, Keenan said:

I'm sure they'd feel like we're throwing their time away by making the system easier and less time-consuming than it's currently intended to be.

 

In no way am I suggesting making the system less time-consuming. Again, I point to digging: no RNG, it works, and is fun for me.

 

Contrast that with surface mining, which is a very similar operation, but with significant RNG, and I find it maddening.

 

If, however, I got a shard every surface mining action, with longer timers to compensate (roughly 2x at 99 skill?), it would be just as fun.

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@Keenan

 

Personally I dont agree with Roccandil on the topic as I like the grind the way it is. But he is right in the sense that as an avid and loyal Epic player, he is forced to do things he doesn't like. With a single digits average population and kingdom trading restrictions, Epic is simply not a place where you can go to a fellow player and acquire what you need.

 

This is in a way a game flaw that the player is compensating for with something that diminishes the player enjoyment. A way to counter this with would be to allow the transfer of freedom goods to epic but not the other way around. This will allow Epic players to enter the freedom market as buyers and acquire those items they need, without being able to flood freedom markets with cheaply and easy to make goods. Maybe Roccandil wouldnt need to spend hours casting to get a 90+ enchant, so he may be willing to pay a premiun to have someone else do it.

 

How can this be done? One way freedom to Epic border. Ship, goods and players crossing it would make the epic transfer and become unable to return the same way.

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Would also be nice if Freedom priests could port to Epic as priests. Then we Epic players could hire some to enchant items we can't ship to Freedom. :)

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