Roccandil

What a misery :(

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1 hour ago, Roccandil said:

I point to digging: no RNG, it works, and is fun for me.

 

There is rng based on skill in digging.  Low ql tar means more failures and longer timers adding to a boat.  Low ql clay means more failures and longer timers making mortar and you can't use it to imp clay items.  Low ql sand means low ql mortar which again affects anything that is created with mortar as well as lowering the ql of walls, which can mean decaying faster off deed or destroying faster in pvp.

 

You need to look at the big picture more often.  Another issue with digging vs surface mining is you can dig 100 slope then put that dirt right back instantly but if you mine 100 slope you cannot you can only put back 40 (on pve, pvp is even lower) but that depends on the surrounding slopes too.  Making surface mining instant like digging creates an imbalance which the only fix is to allow concrete to work like dirt.  But then that creates the next issue of people using concrete to make rock walls and rock fortresses.  You can't just look at one tiny thing and act like changing it would have no significant impact to game balance or anything but your own gameplay.  I am totally in favor of instant surface mining, I've done countless hours of it over the years at many deeds, I'm just aware that it's not as simple as making threads that say the devs are hurting me and I should stop paying because the game isn't fit to my own vision of what it should be

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2 hours ago, Keenan said:

 

But other people do. And I can purchase bulk goods and enchanted items from those people. This is what the point of Wurm Online is. Not to be a single-player self-sufficient crafting machine, though plenty of people do manage to become this. It's meant to be a game where you find your niche and you become skilled at it.

 

We're always willing to look at mechanics, but the fact is that I'd be hard-pressed to radically change a mechanic without considering the whole picture - which includes the silent group of people who are not represented in this thread. Perhaps one of them being the kindly gentleman I've been purchasing my bulk goods from. :) I'm sure he'd be displeased with some sort of easier/automated way of crafting the goods he sells. Same with people who have spent a lot of time, effort, and obviously money to bring their priests and crafters up to where they can easily and quickly craft high-enchant, high-quality tools and weapons. I'm sure they'd feel like we're throwing their time away by making the system easier and less time-consuming than it's currently intended to be.

 

Like I said though, we are always willing to look. Whether the idea fits with Wurm or we have the resources to implement is another question entirely, but I recommend posting suggestions in the Suggestions forum or up-voting existing ones that jive with what you're feeling.

I don't actually understand why the devs are so against automation/production type of things. So many suggestions and endgame ideas have been flooded over the years in the suggestions. Look how long it took to get chicken coops. We currently have very little of these. Coal piles, chicken coops and beehives. I'm not saying it should take away from the original methods. If someone wants to make planks for hours and hours they should still be able to profit from it.

 

Let's go back to the sawmill, you put logs in it and wait let's say 24 hours real time. You might have 100 planks. Another one could be a windmill or watermill, you put raw crop in it and eventually get flour. Also I think production type generators should be limited to 1 per deed and be very hard to craft. Factional fight once talked about a village level system, I think something like that could also be incorporated.

 

I'm just spit baling, I do realize this isn't a suggestion thread. However I do think Wurm has and always been slightly too difficult, I really hope it improves. This is like the only game I play that really never innovates the skilling system, I personally agree with OP and a lot of others in this thread. Looking at WoW, FFXIV and Runescape they add new systems for catchup for new players all the time.

 

Food for thought thanks.

 

 

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Also @Keenan i woul like to point out that point of my suggestion is in no way to destroy bulk makers buisness, if such thing is too be implemented i first would seek that it be balanced so that manual making by skilled player have more benefits over it. Like @Nikisaid we already have bits of such systems ingame with distilling, bee hives and chicken coops and they are extremly fun because brings totaly new aspect to wurm where you set up and plan instead of click all the time which i find very refreshing. Seriously i can't stress enough how much those are fun for me :) Distiling alchohols takes relativly small time to setup, yet you can't fill whole cellar with moonshine so easy you would need a lot of stills and fuel not to mention materials for making undistilled base. You have to space bee hives so they optimaly generate honey, coops require refilling with food and water. Proposed mills would be end game alternatives that are dificult to make, requre a lot of resources and skills but in the long run would pay of(something like rabbit and turtle race compared to manual making), am also for on deed restrictions, 1 per minimal deed maybe, would need to be build next to water or if powered by wind would depend on current weather, maybe require courier cast so the spirit operate it. 

Sorry it's not in suggestion as thread i might formulate it there one day if i'm not feeling lazy but i think it would bring a lot of immersion in game. In my opinion it's always good to have alternatives for different playstyles for the same outcome.

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1 hour ago, MrGARY said:

 

There is rng based on skill in digging.  Low ql tar means more failures and longer timers adding to a boat.  Low ql clay means more failures and longer timers making mortar and you can't use it to imp clay items.  Low ql sand means low ql mortar which again affects anything that is created with mortar as well as lowering the ql of walls, which can mean decaying faster off deed or destroying faster in pvp.

 

Getting decent QL resources via digging seems easy on Epic. My digging skill is now 99+ actual, but I don't ever remember it being a frustration.

 

1 hour ago, MrGARY said:

You need to look at the big picture more often.  Another issue with digging vs surface mining is you can dig 100 slope then put that dirt right back instantly but if you mine 100 slope you cannot you can only put back 40 (on pve, pvp is even lower) but that depends on the surrounding slopes too.  Making surface mining instant like digging creates an imbalance which the only fix is to allow concrete to work like dirt.

 

I don't think you understand, and perhaps that's because I'm not articulating well. Either way, this has nothing to do with speed.

 

I just want my actions to work. I don't care if the surface mining timer becomes fifteen seconds per shard removal, as long as it works every time.

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I didn't say anything about speed...  I'm pointing out the near-impossibilities created by allowing instant surface mine actions.  If you go dig out a chunk of the ground, you can put the dirt back.  If you go mine out a chunk of a mountain, you cannot put that rock back unless you had thousands or millions of concrete to readd rock at 40 slope intervals until you rebuilt the rock then mine away the excess.  Yes someone determined can already run into this or use it to grief but making surface mining instant brings these issues to light much more frequently.   Changing one mechanic can lead to an endless impossible hole of trying to fix what that upset, which is the point of looking at a bigger picture instead of stomping feet saying work

 

edit:  Just making the timers longer for instant action doesn't really fix this issue.  Its just like new fishing vs old, old one is more available because it's no effort and no attention required.  It's easy to do something when all you have to do is hit a keybind x times and look away

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8 minutes ago, MrGARY said:

I didn't say anything about speed...  I'm pointing out the near-impossibilities created by allowing instant surface mine actions.  If you go dig out a chunk of the ground, you can put the dirt back.  If you go mine out a chunk of a mountain, you cannot put that rock back unless you had thousands or millions of concrete to readd rock at 40 slope intervals until you rebuilt the rock then mine away the excess.  Yes someone determined can already run into this or use it to grief but making surface mining instant brings these issues to light much more frequently.   Changing one mechanic can lead to an endless impossible hole of trying to fix what that upset, which is the point of looking at a bigger picture instead of stomping feet saying work

 

 You really don't understand my point? All right, I'll try to spell it out. :)

 

Right now I have 99+ effective mining, which according to the wiki means my chance of surface mining is close to 50%. My surface mining timers are very fast on Epic: less than 3 seconds, as I recall.

 

So, given a 50% chance to succeed every 3 seconds, I'd prefer the timers to be 6 seconds and always work. Over time, actual surface mining speed should be the same. In the big picture, nothing will change.

 

But, I know I'll have a lot more fun. :)

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3 hours ago, MrGARY said:

 

There is rng based on skill in digging.  Low ql tar means more failures and longer timers adding to a boat.  Low ql clay means more failures and longer timers making mortar and you can't use it to imp clay items.  Low ql sand means low ql mortar which again affects anything that is created with mortar as well as lowering the ql of walls, which can mean decaying faster off deed or destroying faster in pvp.

 

You need to look at the big picture more often.  Another issue with digging vs surface mining is you can dig 100 slope then put that dirt right back instantly but if you mine 100 slope you cannot you can only put back 40 (on pve, pvp is even lower) but that depends on the surrounding slopes too.  Making surface mining instant like digging creates an imbalance which the only fix is to allow concrete to work like dirt.  But then that creates the next issue of people using concrete to make rock walls and rock fortresses.  You can't just look at one tiny thing and act like changing it would have no significant impact to game balance or anything but your own gameplay.  I am totally in favor of instant surface mining, I've done countless hours of it over the years at many deeds, I'm just aware that it's not as simple as making threads that say the devs are hurting me and I should stop paying because the game isn't fit to my own vision of what it should be

 I can't believe I'm saying this.. but...

 

Agree 100% with this. 

 

You can thank me later Gary ;)
 

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2 hours ago, Roccandil said:

 

 You really don't understand my point? All right, I'll try to spell it out. :)

 

Right now I have 99+ effective mining, which according to the wiki means my chance of surface mining is close to 50%. My surface mining timers are very fast on Epic: less than 3 seconds, as I recall.

 

So, given a 50% chance to succeed every 3 seconds, I'd prefer the timers to be 6 seconds and always work. Over time, actual surface mining speed should be the same. In the big picture, nothing will change.

 

But, I know I'll have a lot more fun. :)

What Gary means is that the reason surface mining doesnt always work is because thats intended: They want you to look at that rock layer and think about the misery it will cause you and go: "eff that!" The idea is that people dont mess with the rock layer lightly.

 

Clicking a keybind 6  times and failing 3 out of 6 is VERY different from clicking it 6 times and it work 6 out of 6 with double timers. A person like me with multiple screens can put an alt on said rocklayer and take advantage of those long timers and have a much easier time to mess that rock layer. Surface mining sucks so people do less of it. 

 

I agree with Gary. It sucks, and its the way we want it.

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17 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

I agree with Gary. It sucks, and its the way we want it.

I doubt the majority feels the same way. I think if you have higher mining you should more likely get a shard than someone with lower skill. QoL isn't a bad thing.

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If you're not up for the work pass it on to someone who has no issue doing it simple as that. Wanting the game mechanics to change because YOU'RE having a shitty time lol... come on really.

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22 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

What Gary means is that the reason surface mining doesnt always work is because thats intended: They want you to look at that rock layer and think about the misery it will cause you and go: "eff that!" The idea is that people dont mess with the rock layer lightly.

 

Clicking a keybind 6  times and failing 3 out of 6 is VERY different from clicking it 6 times and it work 6 out of 6 with double timers. A person like me with multiple screens can put an alt on said rocklayer and take advantage of those long timers and have a much easier time to mess that rock layer. Surface mining sucks so people do less of it. 

 

I agree with Gary. It sucks, and its the way we want it.

 

I was wondering if anyone was actually going to make that argument. :P

 

Listen to yourselves: "let's make this mechanic possible, but so unfun no one will want to do it". Do you really believe that's good game design?

 

Much, much better is it to make every mechanic fun as possible: every one of them, and then design the game such that people have trouble choosing between which mechanic they want to play! :)

 

That's the principle of opportunity cost, and it works. You don't need surface mining to be frustrating; you just need it to have a high enough opportunity cost. And that cost can simply be time.

 

As it is, the way I surface mine to minimize frustration is to disengage from the game: to stop paying attention, and just mash the button, because that's all I need to do to make it work. And I've done thousands upon thousands of surface mining actions to build my deed, so the frustration barrier didn't stop me.

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3 minutes ago, Legios said:

If you're not up for the work pass it on to someone who has no issue doing it simple as that. Wanting the game mechanics to change because YOU'RE having a shitty time lol... come on really.

 

Yes, really. Let's just say it's obvious to me why Wurm's player base is so small. The game fundamentally disrespects its players (and like you, many players pass that on, so perhaps Wurm has a type).

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Just now, Roccandil said:

 

The game fundamentally disrespects its players (and like you, many players pass that on, so perhaps Wurm has a type).

As a player I'm afraid to say this in general but yes it really does at times. Polling is a great way to gauge interest, take a look at how successful OSRS is. They currently have more players than RS3. It's something to be said though, something perhaps the developers should use more often.

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you ever tried to remove stone irl? i wish i could move 20kg of rocks every 6 seconds or so

 

6 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Listen to yourselves: "let's make this mechanic possible, but so unfun no one will want to do it". Do you really believe that's good game design?

personally i love surface mining just as much as i love any form of terraforming, just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone thinks its unfun

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1 hour ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

you ever tried to remove stone irl? i wish i could move 20kg of rocks every 6 seconds or so

 

personally i love surface mining just as much as i love any form of terraforming, just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone thinks its unfun

 

Great, so Wurm has captured the tiny percentage of the gaming population that finds all its crazy systems fun.

 

What drives -me- crazy are the unnecessarily frustrating mechanics that push away a larger segment of the gaming population that would be willing to play Wurm. :(

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12 hours ago, MrGARY said:

Its just like new fishing vs old, old one is more available because it's no effort and no attention required.  It's easy to do something when all you have to do is hit a keybind x times and look away

 

Right now there's an average amount of time it takes to surface mine a tile. It's obviously more than 1 action worth of time and depends on your skill and tool ql as well, but it's there and can be calculated if you know the chance of success when surface mining. If you change that chance of success to 100% and at the same time increase the base timer then you can get the exact same average time per tile.

In both cases you can hit a keybind x times and look away, but this actually becomes worse with the longer timer because it drains more stamina. Thus pressing a keybind and looking away will result in surface mining taking way longer if the action can no longer fail. That's a pretty good tradeoff.

 

Personally I agree and I wouldn't put the percentage chance at 100% just like that. While it does remove the annoyance factor (which is a good thing to remove) it does also make surface mining less of a hurdle as you pointed out later. I'd propose a different system instead: Right now mining underground takes 50 actions per tile, what if we use something similar, but different. Say when you're surface mining a corner you need to get 100 effort in order to mine it down 1. A mining action can give X effort per action (max 100). Thus it might take 4 actions to mine down a corner by 1, or it might take 1 action. The 4 action case is just like failing 3 times and then succeeding. The difference here is that the player would be able to see his progress by examining the tile/corner. Thus you know that you're making progress, this removes the annoyance factor (previously caused by failing and not making any progress) while keeping the surface mining process the same otherwise.

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I've spent a bit of time reading this and many of your other suggestions, and I do think your opinions are valid, but you are approaching the game from the wrong direction I feel. 

 

Wurm is about the journey, the progression, not the destination. Modern MMOS rush you to endgame because it's about the destination, it's what you do at endgame that the game focuses on. Wurm is about seeing imagination come to life, seeing projects come to life, it's not about being able to do everything instantly, it's about the slow grind and the sense of achievement at climbing that hill, not starting at the top and looking around saying "now this is where the fun begins" 

 

I know you feel that's where the appeal is, and that's why sped up skillgain appeals to you, I totally understand and think that you do have a valid view, the possibilities once you are fully skilled in the game are different to "I want to have my own castle so I need to start working on x y and z" but the slow progression IS part of the old school charm of wurm.

 

Slow down, enjoy the progression, skill comes and things come, it's not a race

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16 hours ago, Niki said:

Looking at WoW, FFXIV and Runescape they add new systems for catchup for new players all the time.

 

Food for thought thanks.

 

 

Funny you mention that, Runescape mining and smithing rework comes out in 2 days. 😛 Guess what they did? You can still mine the same, can still smith thousands of pieces if you want to max that way OR you can smith one piece and imp on it over and over again getting better skill. Guess what the player base is doing? We're stupid excited for it. They didn't take anything away they just expanded upon.

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44 minutes ago, Ruger said:

You can still mine the same, can still smith thousands of pieces if you want to max that way OR you can smith one piece and imp on it over and over again getting better skill. Guess what the player base is doing? We're stupid excited for it. They didn't take anything away they just expanded upon.

That's what we did years ago with the imping sweet spot, skill * .77 + 23, you can imp one item to high levels for better skill or you can create thousands of items for skill. 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Roccandil said:

 

Great, so Wurm has captured the tiny percentage of the gaming population that finds all its crazy systems fun.

 

 

"Lets make the game how I want it, and ignore those who like the current mechanics".

 

+1 for liking surface mining. All terraforming actually.

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12 hours ago, Roccandil said:

 

Great, so Wurm has captured the tiny percentage of the gaming population that finds all its crazy systems fun.

 

+1 its why I am here still after 6 years

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On 1/4/2019 at 4:22 PM, Niki said:

I don't actually understand why the devs are so against automation/production type of things.

Automation... ehh it really depends. Production though I have loved in other games. It was really nice going out to hunt and then placing the hide on drying racks to dry as I head to the mine, soaking the hide in tannin fluid stuff. The pottery planters and the coal piles are actually really good examples of it, and I heard there's a fishing net? I play WU so I'm not updated :3.

 

Also, please never remove shattering.

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4 hours ago, Yiraia said:

Automation... ehh it really depends. Production though I have loved in other games. It was really nice going out to hunt and then placing the hide on drying racks to dry as I head to the mine, soaking the hide in tannin fluid stuff. The pottery planters and the coal piles are actually really good examples of it, and I heard there's a fishing net? I play WU so I'm not updated :3.

 

Also, please never remove shattering.

 

Yeah, production with more depth like that would be really good for the game. The drying racks for hide and then tanning it is a great example.

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On 1/5/2019 at 5:51 AM, Retrograde said:

Wurm is about the journey, the progression, not the destination. Modern MMOS rush you to endgame because it's about the destination, it's what you do at endgame that the game focuses on. Wurm is about seeing imagination come to life, seeing projects come to life, it's not about being able to do everything instantly, it's about the slow grind and the sense of achievement at climbing that hill, not starting at the top and looking around saying "now this is where the fun begins" 

 

Hmm. If you've been following my posts on this subject, I must not be articulating well, because in no way am I interested in speeding up Wurm.

 

I simply want the process, the journey, to be more fun. A surface mining "journey" is a frustrating nightmare. An enchanting "journey" is a frustrating nightmare. An imping "journey" is a frustrating nightmare.

 

These processes are nightmares, not because they're slow, but because they're inherently insane: that is, they require doing the same thing over and over again, hoping to get different results.

 

You don't need to speed up those processes to remove the insanity. You could -slow- them and still remove the insanity. (And my awareness of the pettiness of the frustrations also increases my frustration. :P )

 

As I've also pointed out, Wurm does contain long journeys that do -not- require insanity to complete. And I enjoy those.

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On 1/5/2019 at 10:42 AM, ChampagneDragon said:

"Lets make the game how I want it, and ignore those who like the current mechanics".

 

+1 for liking surface mining. All terraforming actually.

 

Rather, let's make the game how many -more- people would like it, and not ignore those who would enjoy it if some of the needless frustrations were removed.

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