Sign in to follow this  
Roccandil

Make Oakshell an armor enchant

Recommended Posts

12 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

That just sounds like pay to win with extra steps.

Why? No one of the currently active kingdoms on Chaos needs to wear bought scale or drake or moon metals. In fact, I think maybe two people do atm (maybe. I know at least one lost his personal set a while ago) and they are TC. How does killing dragons and collecting scale to make sets makes it pay to win? Please elaborate.

 

49 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

How does this suggestion remove all advantage to wearing more expensive armor? One, the DR buff would be applied on a curve, so the overall armor DR configuration would tighten, but the steps between the armor would remain, and the magnitude of the tightening would be adjustable for balance.

 

Two, since the top tier armor wouldn't need the negligible DR buff, they could use other armor enchants. That's been ignored here, but I think that's significant: any armor set using a DR enchant wouldn't have Web Armor or AoSP. Consider a group of players without WA facing a group of players with WA: that in itself seems like a significant disadvantage.

 

So, top tier armor would still have the advantage, it might just be a bit smaller.

Because in order to have anyone use oakshell over WA, the bonus has to be significant (more than lets say 5%) otherwise oakshell would be completely pointless. If you make it significant, then low tier armors would be unbalanced and would significatively affect pvp.

 

Why does it have to be significant? Because web armor is essential. If you dont have WA, you arent killing dudes in drake and scale because they can run laps around you. WA is what helps you secure a kill when the other guy is low on health and decides to run away.

 

Oakshell on armor without WA is a copletely defensive concept which would be useless with current pvp mechanics 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Angelklaine said:

Because in order to have anyone use oakshell over WA, the bonus has to be significant (more than lets say 5%) otherwise oakshell would be completely pointless. If you make it significant, then low tier armors would be unbalanced and would significatively affect pvp.

 

When you say unbalanced, what do you mean? Speed only? If cloth were exempted, would leather be unbalanced?

 

For the sake of an easy example, let's say a 100 cast of Oakshell added 10% DR, no curve:

 

Cloth - 50%

Leather - 70%

Studded - 72.5%

Chain - 72.5%

Plate - 75%

Drake - 75%

Scale - 80%

 

The DR "steps" between armor remain the same, so I'm not seeing a change to the DR balance. The downside is no Web Armor (which is big).

 

How many armors are now unbalanced, and why?

 

I'll add that I don't like that Web Armor is the only choice for PvP. That's not good balance. I'm now thinking AoSP should be buffed. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

When you say unbalanced, what do you mean? Speed only? If cloth were exempted, would leather be unbalanced?

 

For the sake of an easy example, let's say a 100 cast of Oakshell added 10% DR, no curve:

 

Cloth - 50%

Leather - 70%

Studded - 72.5%

Chain - 72.5%

Plate - 75%

Drake - 75%

Scale - 80%

 

The DR "steps" between armor remain the same, so I'm not seeing a change to the DR balance. The downside is no Web Armor (which is big).

 

How many armors are now unbalanced, and why?

 

I'll add that I don't like that Web Armor is the only choice for PvP. That's not good balance. I'm now thinking AoSP should be buffed. :)

Look at the gap between leather and drake.

 

Now look at the gap between cloth and drake.

 

Cloth and leather have significant advantages over other armors such as speed, no cast penalties and glancing rates. With this proposed change you take away the dr 'penalty' cloth has by a significant amount, thus making casters much more resilient. But thats not what concerns me here. Its the gap between leather and scale. Look at it! Why would you use scale or drake when leather would give you basically the same speed and DR and no cast/archery penalty? Everyone would simply use leather.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

Look at the gap between leather and drake.

 

Now look at the gap between cloth and drake.

 

Cloth and leather have significant advantages over other armors such as speed, no cast penalties and glancing rates. With this proposed change you take away the dr 'penalty' cloth has by a significant amount, thus making casters much more resilient. But thats not what concerns me here. Its the gap between leather and scale. Look at it! Why would you use scale or drake when leather would give you basically the same speed and DR and no cast/archery penalty? Everyone would simply use leather.

 

Hmm. I thought I left the gaps exactly the same as they are now (since the big update everyone wanted); all I did was increase base DR by 10% across the board. Is everyone using leather?

 

Current base DR (and yeah, leather looks pretty close to drake):

 

Armour type Base Damage Reduction Walking speed penalty Casting/archery buff Weight (kg)
Unarmoured N/A 0% +30% 0.00
Cloth 40% 0% +30% 1.80
Leather 60% 10.9% +30% 3.20
Studded leather 62.5% 14.5% +0% 4.90
Chain 62.5% 21.6% -15% 8.20
Plate armour 65% 27.0% -30% 20.5
Drake hide armour 65% 9.6% -30% 3.50
Dragon scale armour 70% 5.4% -30% 5.8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

Hmm. I thought I left the gaps exactly the same as they are now (since the big update everyone wanted); all I did was increase base DR by 10% across the board. Is everyone using leather?

 

Current base DR (and yeah, leather looks pretty close to drake):

 

Armour type Base Damage Reduction Walking speed penalty Casting/archery buff Weight (kg)
Unarmoured N/A 0% +30% 0.00
Cloth 40% 0% +30% 1.80
Leather 60% 10.9% +30% 3.20
Studded leather 62.5% 14.5% +0% 4.90
Chain 62.5% 21.6% -15% 8.20
Plate armour 65% 27.0% -30% 20.5
Drake hide armour 65% 9.6% -30% 3.50
Dragon scale armour 70% 5.4% -30% 5.8

No because web armor is a thing. But your suggestion was not 10% across the board but for it to scale with armor types as to even out. If leather got say an 8% and drake got a 5%, can you give me a reason as to why wear drake? Would you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Angelklaine said:

No because web armor is a thing. But your suggestion was not 10% across the board but for it to scale with armor types as to even out. If leather got say an 8% and drake got a 5%, can you give me a reason as to why wear drake? Would you?

 

47 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

For the sake of an easy example, let's say a 100 cast of Oakshell added 10% DR, no curve: 

 

I'm considering multiple angles. :) Even so, the reason to wear drake would be to get the DR -and- Web Armor (and a bit of speed increase).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, and to get the max DR buff, that leather set will need 100 enchants on everything. How easy is that to get and/or replace?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Oh, and to get the max DR buff, that leather set will need 100 enchants on everything. How easy is that to get and/or replace?

You have never been in a pvp kingdom eh?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

 

I'm considering multiple angles. :) Even so, the reason to wear drake would be to get the DR -and- Web Armor (and a bit of speed increase).

Do you think a neglible amount of speed and WA will offset the price tag/difficulty of obtaining when compared to throwaway leather?

 

4 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Oh, and to get the max DR buff, that leather set will need 100 enchants on everything. How easy is that to get and/or replace?

Given the baseline for pvp echants is 85+, the difference in DR would be what? 1%? Thats insignificant.

 

Have you ever tested this or are you just guessing using math and paper?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Angelklaine said:

Do you think a neglible amount of speed and WA will offset the price tag/difficulty of obtaining when compared to throwaway leather?

 

It's still an advantage. Some people pay a great deal for a razor-thin advantage.

 

1 minute ago, Angelklaine said:

Given the baseline for pvp echants is 85+, the difference in DR would be what? 1%? Thats insignificant.

 

The example gap you gave me was 5% versus 8%, and you seemed to think that was enough to stop wearing drake. 1% is a third of that gap, so it would seem significant, given your metric.

 

1 minute ago, Angelklaine said:

Have you ever tested this or are you just guessing using math and paper?

 

I wasn't aware that running a simulation was a requirement to post a suggestion. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

It's still an advantage. Some people pay a great deal for a razor-thin advantage.

 

 

The example gap you gave me was 5% versus 8%, and you seemed to think that was enough to stop wearing drake. 1% is a third of that gap, so it would seem significant, given your metric.

 

 

I wasn't aware that running a simulation was a requirement to post a suggestion. ;)

I can tell you have once again picked your hill to die on.

 

Godspeed with your suggestion. I see any further discussion will serve no purpose. If we can't find common ground, then there is no point. No further replies from me here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

roc please come up with more suggestions this has fueled my coffees for days ty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/28/2018 at 2:36 PM, Gladiator said:

The problem is not cloth. The problem is scale. In my opinion you shouldn't have the best DR in the game and run at the speed of almost naked. That's no balance, that's a sad excuse for balance

 

The cost is the offset that makes it balanced.

 

-1 to the oakshell idea, the way DR works is already broken, we dont need more DR to break it further on pvp, on pve you dont need more DR than you get from plate or chain for 99% of content.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this