Sign in to follow this  
Roccandil

Make Oakshell an armor enchant

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, Roccandil said:

weakens your case. I ask again: at what point does cloth DR become OP: 41%? 45%? 50%? I haven't gotten a straight answer on that.

I wasn't going to post anymore, but okay, I'll bite. The fact that you disagree with the answers that were given to you doesn't mean they are 'generalizations' or that they arent valid. You pushing the agenda of DR shows your inexperience and lack of understanding in the topic at hand. The issue with scale is not DR in comparison with cloth or any other armor. The difference is speed. Being in scale allows you to escape combat at will and gives you the ability to repair/bandage/heal/regain stam/karma/etc. Anyone else not on scale and on foot simply cannot catch you. So the point of putting oakshell on sets of armor do not address the issue with scale, and only serve to make a completely inexpensive set of armor that has absolutely no penalties gain an advantage that can potentialy break balance.

 

It is for that reason I oppose your suggestion: It does not adress the suggested issue at hand and generates a new meta without just cause.

 

4 hours ago, Roccandil said:

This is all about PvP and ghosting through toons to focus on a single enemy. By that, I mean that since players do not collide, it's possible for X toons to unrealistically focus on a single enemy in a crowd, and thus destroy the enemy in detail.

 

As I understand it, scale has the mobility and DR to exploit that tactical advantage like nothing else can, so much so that a kingdom's power can be measured in scale sets owned. Furthermore, that power has a snowball effect: the more scale a kingdom has, the more likely they are to win scale from other kingdoms.

This is simply not true. Absolutely false, my brother. Cunning, skill and numbers play more of a factor on pvp than any sets of drake or scale could ever do. Look at MR. Look at late JKC. Look at Crusaders yesterday when they were sent packing, drake and scale and all. 

 

You are not equipped with the necesary experience to engage in this argument, my dude. You are eating up the rhetoric that Rome/TC was/is in power because of gear, when you dont even know how they got that gear in the first place. Gear is not absolute. Even Dadd wearing scale and mm weapons will pop like a pumpkin if hit hard enough by enough people. A bad leader or a bad call can do more damage than gear ever will.

 

Don't believe me? Ask Mith.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's use the code split then.  Oakshell on armor for PvE.

 

PvP code can be retrotweaked to before multi-story housing for all i care.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Mordraug said:

Let's use the code split then.  Oakshell on armor for PvE.

 

PvP code can be retrotweaked to before multi-story housing for all i care.

PVE has no need for it, absolutely none

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

That does literally nothing to balance armors on pvp servers, which is the issue being discussed. Not all suggestions are for pve servers only.

This notion will not see the light of day for PvP as it would break PvP balance (and the more cynical side of me says that those with monopolies netting them 250 euros a sale are going to want to keep them).

 

Sometimes people rate ideas as great for PvE, and want to avoid breaking the game for PvPers.

 

Simple solution : PvE only.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

I wasn't going to post anymore, but okay, I'll bite. The fact that you disagree with the answers that were given to you doesn't mean they are 'generalizations' or that they arent valid.

 

Neither does the fact that you agree with them mean that they are valid.

 

6 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

You pushing the agenda of DR shows your inexperience and lack of understanding in the topic at hand.

 

Oh my, not an -agenda-! :P

 

6 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

The issue with scale is not DR in comparison with cloth or any other armor. The difference is speed. Being in scale allows you to escape combat at will and gives you the ability to repair/bandage/heal/regain stam/karma/etc. Anyone else not on scale and on foot simply cannot catch you.

 

I don't mind scale allowing escaping from battle; that's a good thing. I do mind the offensive power it provides simply because players don't have colliders.

 

I note this was not the only thread I posted in this vein:

 

 

6 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

So the point of putting oakshell on sets of armor do not address the issue with scale, and only serve to make a completely inexpensive set of armor that has absolutely no penalties gain an advantage that can potentialy break balance.

 

It is for that reason I oppose your suggestion: It does not adress the suggested issue at hand and generates a new meta without just cause.


How much cloth base DR generates this new meta? 41%? 45% 50%?

 

6 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

This is simply not true. Absolutely false, my brother. Cunning, skill and numbers play more of a factor on pvp than any sets of drake or scale could ever do. Look at MR. Look at late JKC. Look at Crusaders yesterday when they were sent packing, drake and scale and all.

 

You are not equipped with the necesary experience to engage in this argument, my dude. You are eating up the rhetoric that Rome/TC was/is in power because of gear, when you dont even know how they got that gear in the first place. Gear is not absolute. Even Dadd wearing scale and mm weapons will pop like a pumpkin if hit hard enough by enough people. A bad leader or a bad call can do more damage than gear ever will.

 

Don't believe me? Ask Mith.

 

Why are you so all or nothing? :) Scale is a variable, not everything. To use your logic, I would then counter by saying that if armor is so completely irrelevant to PvP outcomes, why argue against a minor armor change?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if u think players passing through each other is a problem u crearly didnt pvp at all

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Roccandil said:

 

Neither does the fact that you agree with them mean that they are valid.

 

 

Oh my, not an -agenda-! :P

 

 

I don't mind scale allowing escaping from battle; that's a good thing. I do mind the offensive power it provides simply because players don't have colliders.

 

I note this was not the only thread I posted in this vein:

 

 


How much cloth base DR generates this new meta? 41%? 45% 50%?

 

 

Why are you so all or nothing? :) Scale is a variable, not everything. To use your logic, I would then counter by saying that if armor is so completely irrelevant to PvP outcomes, why argue against a minor armor change?

It is not just me saying its a bad idea. Its a bunch of experienced pvpers telling an inexperienced person who takes its facts from the wiki that its a bad idea. 

 

As for how much DR, it doesnt matter as the DR bonus granted by armors is perfectly fine as it is atm. It needs no change.

2 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

This notion will not see the light of day for PvP as it would break PvP balance (and the more cynical side of me says that those with monopolies netting them 250 euros a sale are going to want to keep them).

 

Sometimes people rate ideas as great for PvE, and want to avoid breaking the game for PvPers.

 

Simple solution : PvE only.

Eh, not quite. Its not monopolies thats the issue. Armors are fine DR wise so Oakshell on armors is a moot point. 

 

As for Okashell on armor in PVE, why? You can do the entire pve content wearing a 85ql unenchanted leather armor. Whats the point of throwing Oakshell on it? And yes, its doable as I have done Rifts and dragon slayings on my leather wearing priest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

It is not just me saying its a bad idea. Its a bunch of experienced pvpers telling an inexperienced person who takes its facts from the wiki that its a bad idea.  

 

I see a bunch of people making unsupported assertions, and attempting to rely on argument by authority.

 

24 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

As for how much DR, it doesnt matter as the DR bonus granted by armors is perfectly fine as it is atm. It needs no change.

 

Demonstrating how to dodge? :P And still no straight answer. Ah well.

 

I'll add that the explanation given of cloth armor's role being about RNG sucks. If it were my game, I'd rebalance cloth to not be "RNG armor".

 

I also note that Venom now bypasses glancing, which makes it a natural counter to cloth.

 

3 hours ago, Gladiator said:

if u think players passing through each other is a problem u crearly didnt pvp at all

 

You'd be wrong. :) Again, you're making an extreme statement, and thus falling into inaccuracy.

 

Anyhow, you're saying that the ability for a squad to easily target the same toon in an enemy squad isn't an issue? If so, why not?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Anyhow, you're saying that the ability for a squad to easily target the same toon in an enemy squad isn't an issue? If so, why not?

He's saying that being able to ghost through characters or not is not a factor when targetting somebody. At worse, it would be like chasing someone through trees. If you glance a tree, it will push you over to the side so that you dont get stuck on it. If players had a hitbox, it would be the same, so it would be pretty much irrelevant during combat other than perhaps blocking mine hops or doors or something similar, which given the fact you cant attack through certain openings, it could be exploited.

 

As for bypassing someone to attack someone else on the rear, its pretty pointless given how dynamic pvp is. People don't just stand in the same spot and trade blows, then move to a better target. Combat is dynamic, where both groups move back and forth from a safe location towards a safe location (On open field those caught run towards the nearest deed while the others chase, for example) or during a boat fight, boats move towards/away deeds in similar fashion. Its constant movement which would require an entire group to coordinate in a pretty ridiculous way in order to make any kind of barrier.

 

Combat is not this organized military operation. When you are leading a fight, its more akin to herding cats.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldn't add hitboxes; I'd simply add/adjust tile crowding mechanics to not allow targeting a toon that has X number of friendlies nearby and Y number of enemies already targeting it.

 

By the way, are you saying that if your squad is faster than the enemy, you can't exploit that to all jump on the same enemy toon at the same time? That's not a thing, even for one blow each?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

 

As for Okashell on armor in PVE, why? You can do the entire pve content wearing a 85ql unenchanted leather armor. Whats the point of throwing Oakshell on it? And yes, its doable as I have done Rifts and dragon slayings on my leather wearing priest.

Try that with lower body stats ;)

 

But more seriously, oakshell sees little to no use on PvE servers; this would be a nice feature to make it a bit less of a waste of a slot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Roccandil said:

I wouldn't add hitboxes; I'd simply add/adjust tile crowding mechanics to not allow targeting a toon that has X number of friendlies nearby and Y number of enemies already targeting it.

 

By the way, are you saying that if your squad is faster than the enemy, you can't exploit that to all jump on the same enemy toon at the same time? That's not a thing, even for one blow each?

There is already a limit to how many people can attack a single player at the same time. Of course, you'd know that if you actually pvp'd on a regular basis. 

 

You can't just pile 20 dudes on a single guy.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

You can't just pile 20 dudes on a single guy.

 

Sure, but does the number of potential targeters decrease as the number of friendlies nearby increases? Like I've said elsewhere, I'd like to see phalanx-like mechanics, where if I've got X friendlies with me, I can only be targeted by one enemy at a time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Roccandil said:

 

Sure, but does the number of potential targeters decrease as the number of friendlies nearby increases? Like I've said elsewhere, I'd like to see phalanx-like mechanics, where if I've got X friendlies with me, I can only be targeted by one enemy at a time.

Actually, best tactic is to gank their weakest armoured toon.  Thus reducing DPS...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

Actually, best tactic is to gank their weakest armoured toon.  Thus reducing DPS...

This is exactly what people do. During large fights, both sides look for soft targets (less armored, weaker accounts, inexperieced players known to panic) and target them first. This is very significant, as a huge axe to the head is a huge axe to the head, and taking one attacker out early greatly increases your chances of survival.

 

By the time a couple people have died, most groups are already in retreat mode, unless they are expecting reinforcements.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Roccandil, honestly, you should just have some actual PVP experience before questioning everyone's view on it. These people that keep telling you that your ideas are flawed have been fighting for years, dozens of battles. get even a fraction of that experience before jumping in to question it. PVP has a lot of problems, and i mean a LOT dude i swear to god, but not the problems you think it does, but entirely different ones, which even if i told them to you, i know for a fact you wouln't listen because that's what you do, thats your gimmick, so if u don't trust me, or angel, or anyone else for that matter, trust yourself after 10 or 20 battles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

This is exactly what people do. During large fights, both sides look for soft targets (less armored, weaker accounts, inexperieced players known to panic) and target them first. This is very significant, as a huge axe to the head is a huge axe to the head, and taking one attacker out early greatly increases your chances of survival.

 

Of course it is. :) While I may not have much PvP experience in Wurm, I have a great deal in other hitpoint-based games, and the concept of focus fire is not new to me.

 

That's why I'm pointing out how important it is that once an enemy target is selected (for whatever reason), a squad can ghost through other enemies to jump on that enemy, even if that enemy is in the middle of an enemy squad.

 

The speed of scale exacerbates that effect: top DR armor able to swoop in on a vulnerable toon at near-naked speed.

 

Ideally and realistically, however, those weaker toons that everyone's looking to kill should be able to stand together, buttressed by stronger toons, and not be such easy targets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Roccandil said:

 

Of course it is. :) While I may not have much PvP experience in Wurm, I have a great deal in other hitpoint-based games, and the concept of focus fire is not new to me.

 

That's why I'm pointing out how important it is that once an enemy target is selected (for whatever reason), a squad can ghost through other enemies to jump on that enemy, even if that enemy is in the middle of an enemy squad.

 

The speed of scale exacerbates that effect: top DR armor able to swoop in on a vulnerable toon at near-naked speed.

 

Ideally and realistically, however, those weaker toons that everyone's looking to kill should be able to stand together, buttressed by stronger toons, and not be such easy targets.

Yes. Thats why the issue is speed, not DR 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

Yes. Thats why the issue is speed, not DR 

 

 

I disagree. I wouldn't want to see scale (or cloth) slowed; I'd hold out for a phalanx mechanic.

 

Having looked at all the arguments, I stand by my original suggestion: I'd like to see Oakshell as a curved, DR enchant (along with Wind of Ages, as per my other suggestion).

 

If that's a problem on cloth, I'd lower cloth's glance rates. I hate the idea of RNG armor (and cloth glancing doesn't make much sense to me anyhow). Could also include a speed penalty with Oakshell (so the higher the Oakshell, the slower the armor).

 

Ultimately, armor enchants are kinda sad: only two. :( Weapons get lots of enchants; I'd like to see some more interesting enchant choices for armor, and if we can narrow the armor playing field in the process, hey, bonus. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Roccandil said:

I disagree. I wouldn't want to see scale (or cloth) slowed; I'd hold out for a phalanx mechanic.

Well then, you're pretty much the only one lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/31/2018 at 4:56 AM, Mordraug said:

Let's use the code split then.  Oakshell on armor for PvE.

 

PvP code can be retrotweaked to before multi-story housing for all i care.

 

But the OP said that this suggestion is not intended for PVE - its intended for PVP. You don't need scale on PVE, just leather, a horse, and an LT weapon - according to the OP, of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The suggestion was indeed made with PvP in mind, but I certainly don't see any harm in including a DR enchant in PvE.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/28/2018 at 3:40 PM, Roccandil said:

That's what I call people protecting their advantages. :P

You realize that some of the people commenting on this are the ones wearing chain and leather?

The kingdom I am in wears this kind of armor almost exclusively and I will still -1 this.

There should be an advantage to wearing more expensive armor.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, necroe said:

There should be an advantage to wearing more expensive armor.

 

That just sounds like pay to win with extra steps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, necroe said:

You realize that some of the people commenting on this are the ones wearing chain and leather?

The kingdom I am in wears this kind of armor almost exclusively and I will still -1 this.

There should be an advantage to wearing more expensive armor.

 

 

How does this suggestion remove all advantage to wearing more expensive armor? One, the DR buff would be applied on a curve, so the overall armor DR configuration would tighten, but the steps between the armor would remain, and the magnitude of the tightening would be adjustable for balance.

 

Two, since the top tier armor wouldn't need the negligible DR buff, they could use other armor enchants. That's been ignored here, but I think that's significant: any armor set using a DR enchant wouldn't have Web Armor or AoSP. Consider a group of players without WA facing a group of players with WA: that in itself seems like a significant disadvantage.

 

So, top tier armor would still have the advantage, it might just be a bit smaller.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this