Make Oakshell an armor enchant

[Gladiator 968]

2 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

you can tell archaed doesn't get a say on developing new features because if he did there'd be an auto no target when you walk away from a mob

Here's the sad thing, he does, remember Epic armor balances? They were held off by your beloved archaed alone for  6 months xD

Edited December 29, 2018 by Gladiator

[Rocky 299]

3 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

It's an art 

Is it an AFK art?

[Angelklaine 4,266]

5 hours ago, Retrograde said:

I'm up to something like 22 deaths since death tabs. It's an art 

Retro dual wields his face when fighting mobs.

 

Also there is this rumor that he killed a Wild Cat once...

[Roccandil 959]

7 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

What the hell... You were doing so well Roccandil... I was beggining to be so proud of you. Then you go and suggest this monstrosity of a thread.

 

Why dont suggeest we swap the DR from Scale to Cloth and call it a day? And while at it, lets make it so all Iron weapons get a 25% DR bonus plus short swords get a 50% damage increase? 

 

I can't even...

 

I'm seeing few, if any, reasonable objections to my suggestion. A lot of bluster, but little reason.

 

Note that the essence of my suggestion is narrowing the gap between scale and the other armors, without directly nerfing scale. Under those parameters, it's logical that the other armors would become more like scale (not as effective as scale, but closer than they are now).

 

8 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

being weak to a huge axe won't do much if they cant keep up with you going faster than scale and dodging/glancing every hit and functioning as normal armor when you actually do win that rng and get a hit in 

 

Cloth is 40% base DR. Presumably it's not OP now, or everyone would be using it and/or clamouring for nerfing it. Would 45% max DR be OP? 50%? 55%?

 

What if Oakshell caused the armor to slow down a bit?

 

To everyone, the fundamental problem with scale is not its speed, but the game mechanic of ghosting through enemies to defeat them in detail, one by one. Eliminate that, and the speed of scale becomes less useful: not useless, by any means, but not critical to winning fights.

 

In that case, massed players in plate would be able to tactically own tiles (think phalanx), and players in scale wouldn't be able to rely on their speed to defeat them.

 

Failing that, however, I'll make suggestions like these.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Roccandil

[Angelklaine 4,266]

The only way you can "close the gap" with scale is by making it as fast as plate tbh. The DR of scale vs Plate is not significant enough. 

 

Given that, if you make cloth closer to scale, you are basicly making a 2s version of a 250 euros armor with a better glancing rate. Thats OP. Added to that is the fact you cant dispell armor enchants, thus rendering the only defense against that spell useless.

 

I dont think you have enough real pvp experience to understand how op that would be. Being able to enchant armor to increase DR is broken in and of itself because of how lopsided it would be.

 

This is why you have found very little support for your suggestion. It would break pvp.

[Oblivionnreaver 5,174]

DR and misses stack exponentially, On paper it doesn't sound like much, but glance+miss+blocks+dodges ends up for a lot of theoretical tankiness, and the counter is that it's RNG in the fact that 2 good hits will take you out of the fight, taking away the low DR is a gigantic buff.

[Roccandil 959]

5 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

The only way you can "close the gap" with scale is by making it as fast as plate tbh. The DR of scale vs Plate is not significant enough. 

 

Given that, if you make cloth closer to scale, you are basicly making a 2s version of a 250 euros armor with a better glancing rate. Thats OP. Added to that is the fact you cant dispell armor enchants, thus rendering the only defense against that spell useless.

 

I dont think you have enough real pvp experience to understand how op that would be. Being able to enchant armor to increase DR is broken in and of itself because of how lopsided it would be.

 

This is why you have found very little support for your suggestion. It would break pvp.

 

Better glancing rate? Granted, the wiki may be wrong, but it looks like scale has far better glance rates.

 

And even if my suggestion indeed made enchanted cloth "scale light", that would benefit newer players tremendously. It's only the people invested in the OPness of scale who would lose.

 

After all, there would be no new functional OPness, cloth would simply be able to do the OPness that scale does now.

 

5 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

DR and misses stack exponentially, On paper it doesn't sound like much, but glance+miss+blocks+dodges ends up for a lot of theoretical tankiness, and the counter is that it's RNG in the fact that 2 good hits will take you out of the fight, taking away the low DR is a gigantic buff. 

 

To answer both you and Angel, what I'm hearing is that -any- increase to the 40% DR, even a small jump to 41%, would be massive, and cloth would be so OP that Wurm would disintegrate in a fiery cataclysm.

 

I need more than simple assertion to buy that cloth is already teetering on the brink of scale-like OPness.

 

And even if it were, a slowness penalty could be added to an Oakshell enchant. (Gotta protect those scale users!)

[nicedreams 1,035]

Just to help with some PvP balance it would be nice if they would slow scale down to at least what drake is.  Drake is fast, but not like 88MPH fast as scale is.  Make the speed change only reduce you while on Chaos.  If they do change this it needs to be applied if only 1 piece of scale is worn so it can't be manipulated to where you can wear half scale and half chain (or something else) to get around the speed slowdown somehow.  Crafty people will find away around it.

[Roccandil 959]

51 minutes ago, nicedreams said:

Just to help with some PvP balance it would be nice if they would slow scale down to at least what drake is.  Drake is fast, but not like 88MPH fast as scale is.  Make the speed change only reduce you while on Chaos.  If they do change this it needs to be applied if only 1 piece of scale is worn so it can't be manipulated to where you can wear half scale and half chain (or something else) to get around the speed slowdown somehow.  Crafty people will find away around it.

 

I was going to ask about that. I was trying to avoid nerfing scale directly by making everything else at least a little better, but it seems like everyone is saying "you can't do that!"

 

Assuming that's true, do you all really want to nerf scale hard?

[Mordraug 2,542]

10 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

mordraug's been owning pvp noobtards with epic statements and whataboutisms for so long i feel like he's managed to turn it into a paying job, guy's probably the dad on the sidelines that yells commands out to the 10 yr olds playing football and punches on with the ref after a few drinks

 

It's not about "owning pvp", it's about a lot of good suggestions constantly being shouted down with thread derail after derail ..... and "omg roon peeveeps" is usually a loud cry in those.  So yeah, I derive some amusement out of balancing the loudness on both sides for sure.

 

And why would I wanna watch kids play sports?   Got plenty of kids trying to stagnate a game to yell at anyways =P 

[Angelklaine 4,266]

1 hour ago, Roccandil said:

To answer both you and Angel, what I'm hearing is that -any- increase to the 40% DR, even a small jump to 41%, would be massive, and cloth would be so OP that Wurm would disintegrate in a fiery cataclysm.

What? No one here has said that but you. Wtf.

 

Besides, you make it sound like its a done deal. A great idea that is going to be implemented. We don't have to convince you of anything. We simply sit back and laugh at the ridiculousness of it. People have shared valid reasons why its not viable already, which you simply invalidate with a declaration of it "not being enough". Lol

 

1 minute ago, Mordraug said:

And why would I wanna watch kids play sports?   Got plenty of kids trying to stagnate a game to yell at anyways =P

Sometimes is all you can do.

[nicedreams 1,035]

10 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Assuming that's true, do you all really want to nerf scale hard?

 

I don't see adjusting the speed of scale to be more competitive for PvP an issue or a hard nerf.

 

[Roccandil 959]

21 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

What? No one here has said that but you. Wtf.

 

LOL. I take it my humor is lost on you.

 

More precisely, I was illustrating your hyperbole by using hyperbole.

 

21 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

Besides, you make it sound like its a done deal. A great idea that is going to be implemented. We don't have to convince you of anything. We simply sit back and laugh at the ridiculousness of it. People have shared valid reasons why its not viable already, which you simply invalidate with a declaration of it "not being enough". Lol

 

Interesting point of view. You really get stuck on the superficial.

 

Again, I'd like to see the gap between scale and the other armors narrowed. Are you against that?

[Alyeska 2,621]

4 hours ago, Roccandil said:

 

I'm seeing few, if any, reasonable objections to my suggestion. A lot of bluster, but little reason.

 

 

Just because you don't like them, doesn't make them unreasonable objections.

 

Yes, I'd hate to see the DR gap between scale and cloth narrowed. One is made from pieces of cotton, the other from scales of a dragon. I don't want every armour to be just as good or a copy of the next one. Cloths purpose is to be cheap, disposable, light and good for priests while still providing glance rate, scale is great for damage reduction, but hard to create, and not good for priests. If you want good damage reduction that is easier to make, you sacrifice speed and go for plate. If you look at videos of people fighting you see a variety of armour being used, drake, scale, chain, plate, studded leather and as mentioned, even some in cloth. It's pretty well balanced without trying to bring them closer together - that just unbalances it again.

[Roccandil 959]

37 minutes ago, Alyeska said:

 

Just because you don't like them, doesn't make them unreasonable objections.

 

Nor does liking them make them reasonable.

 

37 minutes ago, Alyeska said:

Yes, I'd hate to see the DR gap between scale and cloth narrowed. One is made from pieces of cotton, the other from scales of a dragon. I don't want every armour to be just as good or a copy of the next one. Cloths purpose is to be cheap, disposable, light and good for priests while still providing glance rate, scale is great for damage reduction, but hard to create, and not good for priests. If you want good damage reduction that is easier to make, you sacrifice speed and go for plate. If you look at videos of people fighting you see a variety of armour being used, drake, scale, chain, plate, studded leather and as mentioned, even some in cloth. It's pretty well balanced without trying to bring them closer together - that just unbalances it again.

 

Hmm. Scale seems utterly OP in PvP. (Actually, it reminds of Shardplate in Stormlight Archives (totally awesome stories, btw!), in which kingdom power can be measured in set ownership.)

 

At any rate, if you don't agree that scale is OP, then yes, the entire suggestion is useless.

 

To spell it out, my reasoning goes like this:

 

1) Scale is OP (silly, crazy, fantastically OP!).

2) If scale is too powerful, it should be balanced.

3) Balancing options are direct nerfs to scale parameters, or indirect nerfs by changing its environment (other armor, game mechanics, etc.).

4) If at all possible, I'd like to see scale nerfed indirectly.

5) If the ghosting movement mechanics that allow scale to be so OP in PvP can't reasonably be fixed in the current code, the only other indirect nerf I see is improving the other armors.

 

That's it, really. If you disagree with any of the first statements, then the following statement(s) become irrelevant.

 

I don't mind people disagreeing, but I don't want to see a kerfuffle over implementation details obscure the fundamental question(s).

[Angelklaine 4,266]

3 hours ago, Roccandil said:

LOL. I take it my humor is lost on you.

 

More precisely, I was illustrating your hyperbole by using hyperbole.

 

5 hours ago, Roccandil said:

I'm seeing few, if any, reasonable objections to my suggestion. A lot of bluster, but little reason.

 

 

Doesn't seem like to me. But even if any of your statements are a attempt at humor, it doesn't change the fact that your suggestion would greatly imbalance the current state of pvp on the game. If you made all armors equal ("close the gap") you ruin the complete point of having armor. Mind as well turn armors into a cosmetic item and apply DR based on stats... oh wait but then that would not help newer players now, would it?

 

The whole reasoning couldn't be more perfectly explained by what Alyeska said here:

 

1 hour ago, Alyeska said:

One is made from pieces of cotton, the other from scales of a dragon. I don't want every armour to be just as good or a copy of the next one. Cloths purpose is to be cheap, disposable, light and good for priests while still providing glance rate, scale is great for damage reduction, but hard to create, and not good for priests. If you want good damage reduction that is easier to make, you sacrifice speed and go for plate. If you look at videos of people fighting you see a variety of armour being used, drake, scale, chain, plate, studded leather and as mentioned, even some in cloth. It's pretty well balanced without trying to bring them closer together - that just unbalances it again.

 

Which leads us to...

 

13 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

At any rate, if you don't agree that scale is OP, then yes, the entire suggestion is useless.

 

Indeed. Which is why every pvper here is telling you that this idea will not work. Closing the gap between armor DR is a bad idea.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Angelklaine

[Roccandil 959]

You really don't think scale is OP? The gap between drake/scale and everything else is huge, and would appear to contribute heavily to PvP snowballing. I suppose you don't think that's a bad thing, either?

 

Closing the gap in no way means "making all armors equal": that's a strawman, dude. It simply means making scale's advantage smaller, and a smaller advantage is -still- an advantage.

[Angelklaine 4,266]

1 hour ago, Roccandil said:

You really don't think scale is OP? The gap between drake/scale and everything else is huge, and would appear to contribute heavily to PvP snowballing. I suppose you don't think that's a bad thing, either?

 

Closing the gap in no way means "making all armors equal": that's a strawman, dude. It simply means making scale's advantage smaller, and a smaller advantage is -still- an advantage.

Your suggestion is not to modify or reduce the power of scale, its to allow to cast Oakshell on all armors with diminishing returns as to make them all more even. If you ask me if Scale should be adjusted, I believe it should. Not to the point that cloth is at par with it, no, but yes. However that's not what you are suggesting here.

 

What I am opposed to is your suggestion, not the fact that scale should be modified. However, my opinion of how it should be modified has nothing to do with DR, and more to do with speed. All other armors are fine as they are. But that's for another suggestion thread.

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

19 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

if you make cloth closer to scale, you are basicly making a 2s version of a 250 euros armor with a better glancing rate. 

There we go.

 

Simple solution, make the enchant work for PvE world's only.

[Roccandil 959]

9 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

Your suggestion is not to modify or reduce the power of scale, its to allow to cast Oakshell on all armors with diminishing returns as to make them all more even. If you ask me if Scale should be adjusted, I believe it should. Not to the point that cloth is at par with it, no, but yes. However that's not what you are suggesting here.

 

What I am opposed to is your suggestion, not the fact that scale should be modified. However, my opinion of how it should be modified has nothing to do with DR, and more to do with speed. All other armors are fine as they are. But that's for another suggestion thread.

 

I'm looking to reduce the relative power of scale, without directly changing scale. I did create another suggestion thread for speed: allow Wind of Ages to be an armor enchant, and improve speed on a curve. (That one wouldn't affect cloth at all.)

 

Still, I doubt that increasing cloth's base DR from 40% to, say, 45% would somehow put it on par with scale with its whopping 70% base DR and higher glance rates, but hey. Oh, and cloth with Oakshell couldn't have Web Armor, either. That seems a significant disadvantage.

[Angelklaine 4,266]

18 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

I'm looking to reduce the relative power of scale, without directly changing scale. I did create another suggestion thread for speed: allow Wind of Ages to be an armor enchant, and improve speed on a curve. (That one wouldn't affect cloth at all.)

 

Still, I doubt that increasing cloth's base DR from 40% to, say, 45% would somehow put it on par with scale with its whopping 70% base DR and higher glance rates, but hey. Oh, and cloth with Oakshell couldn't have Web Armor, either. That seems a significant disadvantage.

Thats not what your suggestion said tho. Did you went back and ninja changed it like you are fond of doing it? Lol.

 

3 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

There we go.

 

Simple solution, make the enchant work for PvE world's only.

That does literally nothing to balance armors on pvp servers, which is the issue being discussed. Not all suggestions are for pve servers only.

[Roccandil 959]

10 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

Thats not what your suggestion said tho. Did you went back and ninja changed it like you are fond of doing it? Lol.

 

It's -why- I made the suggestion in the first place. Nothing has changed there. I'm just interested in precise articulation, and reasonable conversation.

 

Seems like you're trying to make this some kind of forum combat. Why?

[Gladiator 968]

12 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

It's -why- I made the suggestion in the first place. Nothing has changed there. I'm just interested in precise articulation, and reasonable conversation.

 

Seems like you're trying to make this some kind of forum combat. Why?

The only one i find getting mad over this "combat" is you though. You're extremely predictable in how your posts go. You are not experienced, yet you come up with PVP ideas, that's not a bad thing in and of itself, but, not only do you post them, but you get very defensive if somebody disagrees with your suggestions, to the point where you will disregard any and all reason that set person comes up with even though everyone else on the thread agrees with that person. And this happens to your threads very often , when will you learn that maybe the problem ain't the 10 dudes disagrees with you, but you yourself.

[Alyeska 2,621]

22 hours ago, Roccandil said:

 

Hmm. Scale seems utterly OP in PvP. (Actually, it reminds of Shardplate in Stormlight Archives (totally awesome stories, btw!), in which kingdom power can be measured in set ownership.)

 

At any rate, if you don't agree that scale is OP, then yes, the entire suggestion is useless.

 

 

 

I don't think scale is OP. It has balancing factors that offset its damage reduction which I explained. The difficulty of the obtaining of it is a reason to have it be worthwhile to use. Having to farm 6 cotton tiles and waiting a week cannot possibly be compared in terms of difficulty to having to find and slay multiple dragons and saying "well, this is fair".  At any rate, if you suck at combat, you'll die to a troll even when wearing scale armour. its not OP in that it makes you invincible. And if you're purely looking for an easy way to have powerful armour, you can get a set of plate and ride a horse around.

[Roccandil 959]

10 hours ago, Gladiator said:

The only one i find getting mad over this "combat" is you though. You're extremely predictable in how your posts go. You are not experienced, yet you come up with PVP ideas, that's not a bad thing in and of itself, but, not only do you post them, but you get very defensive if somebody disagrees with your suggestions, to the point where you will disregard any and all reason that set person comes up with even though everyone else on the thread agrees with that person. And this happens to your threads very often , when will you learn that maybe the problem ain't the 10 dudes disagrees with you, but you yourself.

 

Oh, I'm not mad. (Well, not angry: I do wonder if I'm mad to be attempting this conversation. )

 

I could care less, however, about the number of people who disagree with me. Reality remains reality, regardless of the number of people who say it isn't.

 

Nevertheless, I could point out at least one instance in which I proposed something PvP, Angel said "bad idea", and I realized he was right. I'm not interested in sticking to an idea just because I made it.

 

In this case, you've all argued in generalizations, which weakens your case. I ask again: at what point does cloth DR become OP: 41%? 45%? 50%? I haven't gotten a straight answer on that.

 

7 hours ago, Alyeska said:

I don't think scale is OP. It has balancing factors that offset its damage reduction which I explained. The difficulty of the obtaining of it is a reason to have it be worthwhile to use. Having to farm 6 cotton tiles and waiting a week cannot possibly be compared in terms of difficulty to having to find and slay multiple dragons and saying "well, this is fair".  At any rate, if you suck at combat, you'll die to a troll even when wearing scale armour. its not OP in that it makes you invincible. And if you're purely looking for an easy way to have powerful armour, you can get a set of plate and ride a horse around.

 

Horses and LT are "OP" for hunting. I can send a newbie toon out in leather on a horse with an LT weapon, and they'll be fine.

 

This is all about PvP and ghosting through toons to focus on a single enemy. By that, I mean that since players do not collide, it's possible for X toons to unrealistically focus on a single enemy in a crowd, and thus destroy the enemy in detail.

 

As I understand it, scale has the mobility and DR to exploit that tactical advantage like nothing else can, so much so that a kingdom's power can be measured in scale sets owned. Furthermore, that power has a snowball effect: the more scale a kingdom has, the more likely they are to win scale from other kingdoms.

 

That's really a bad thing for PvP overall. It doesn't matter what other balancing factors there may be. As far as I can see (despite my limited experience), that problem is real.

 

At the same time, I do agree that scale should be cool, especially given the difficulty required to obtain it. That's why I wasn't suggesting nerfing scale directly, but looking for ways to reduce its advantage somewhat in PvP by providing the possibility to strengthen other armors with enchants.

 

Remember that scale wouldn't need those enchants, and thus could have Web Armor or AoSP enchants, making it categorically better even if all other armors were made equal to it via a DR enchant (which is -not- what I'm suggesting).

 

EDIT: I might as well add that I have a scale set of my own, so it's not like I'm looking for a cheap replacement. To be honest, getting the scale set is what triggered this post; it was immediately and viscerally obvious why it's so OP in PvP.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Roccandil