Sign in to follow this  
Retrograde

Tower chaining system

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Keenan said:

The back-and-forth is why things usually go poorly with PvP feedback. If you guys can't be civil on a feedback thread, then don't comment. And yes, I'm directing that at you directly @JakeRivers - my opinion is that your comments served no purpose here and brought nothing to the table.

 

That said, having an external map is a form of meta. Hell, any tools or utilities outside of the game itself is technically meta. So I'm not happy with the solution being "go meta". So maybe there's more to look at here, @Darklords


Maybe add tower icons on the in game map for all players to use without 3rd party tools?

But, besides the point. I like the changes listed, are they getting Tested on server currently? I'd like to bash a tower to 90 dmg and see how many gaurds spawn and see how it all works in that regard. 
i think if we can't bash a tower whilst gaurds are up, it'll help. 

You could tie where the tower is with Locate tower using Info minister title, could be a new thing.

Edited by Mclavin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Retrograde said:

At 90 damage, the kingdom that owns the tower will get a message in the Deaths tab stating that the tower is under attack.When the tower is destroyed, there will be a global message to all kingdoms on the server that the tower has been destroyed

 

Love the system ideas, as others have stated 90 damage is a little too late for both the last wave and also the death tab alert, at 90 damage the tower would be destroyed by 2-3 people in under a minute most likely, due to the effective QL at 90 damage. So I would probably just kite the last wave of guards around while someone else finished off the bashing.

 

Perhaps last wave at 75 damage, or make the tower immune to damage until all the spawn of guards are death.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many posts have now been removed, keep this thread only for questions and comments about the feature.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I vote for having the in game map show the tower locations and influence.  Have a button for it you can toggle on the map.  Make it only viewable when on Chaos.  Have the tower map update every 12 hours or something.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, nicedreams said:

Make it only viewable when on Chaos.

 

Would be cool on Epic too... :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chained towers is such a nice feature, there is so much that could be added later on to this to give a great feeling of acctually having a medieval kingdom.

One idea that I would like to suggest would be that towers under attack have a "lit" area or light effect around it, making it shine stronger. Not as strong as a rift/blacklight/whitelight but like something in between that could be viewed on 100 tiles distance or perhaps more. Think of it like the chines wall lighting its beacon as the stealthy Mongols climbed the walls to enter the great empire of china.

Maybe the beacon starts at 75 dmg and then the kingdom message at 90 dmg, giving you some extra time to see if it you are close to that tower because of the beacon.

beacons.jpg


Not sure you want feedback of such sort here just felt like posting it, ty for reading if you did :)

All in all, these new chained towers is a really cool feature! Nicely done!

Edited by Nocturnes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, MrGARY said:

Would like to confirm since no one else has asked that I noticed, this affects only Chaos and Elevation yeah?  Since home servers are 100% influence always and there is no tower warfare there

 

Yes, and Sindusk said on Emoo's stream that it did not apply to Freedom Isles on Chaos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Nocturnes said:

One idea that I would like to suggest would be that towers under attack have a "lit" area or light effect around it, making it shine stronger. Not as strong as a rift/blacklight/whitelight but like something in between that could be viewed on 100 tiles distance or perhaps more. Think of it like the chines wall lighting its beacon as the stealthy Mongols climbed the walls to enter the great empire of china.

 

A column of flame from the tower? That sounds cool. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So will an enemy be able to drop a deed if a tower isn't linked? Again this was the main reason we wanted tower chaining. Can a dev confirm yes/no when it's good timing for them?

Edited by Mclavin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback. We're reading through the posts and have made a couple of changes in response to some of the concerns you have.

 

On 12/12/2018 at 4:12 AM, Mclavin said:

You need to prevent Tower bashing whilst the gaurds are up. This will extend timer and will also stop the meta:

Of me telling 10 people to go away at 89 damage: Bashing with 5. Getting gaurds to spawn, aggro to my team of 5 and get the 10 players to return to continue bashing.
If bashing is disabled whilst gaurd waves are up, this will make it so you have to focus fighting and not bashing.

With gaurds spawning disabling the bash - The 90 Damage spawn of gaurds AND a death tab is ok. That gives players time to get ready.

 

bricks should be used to repair towers to stop alts running up to do repairs.

On 12/12/2018 at 9:23 AM, CIRAY said:

The tower chaining itself is a good change. However, there will definitely be issues with the change to alerts when towers are being bashed. Let’s break this down: 

 

For the past couple weeks I’ve held the kingdom title that allows me to see when towers are being bashed. With this title I’ve been alerted, almost immediately, of several towers under attack, and every time it was a struggle to find out which tower was being bashed, where it was located, and how we were going to contest it. Then there’s the issue of kingdom members being spread out across our lands, so they have to group up before you can even think about contesting. This all takes time, especially when you aren’t confined to a local or two of space on a server as large as Chaos.

 

We’re talking a good 5-10 minutes of figuring out which tower is being bashed, where it’s located, and what we’re going to do to contest it. Tack on another 10-15 minutes travel time, at least, just to get everyone grouped up at one deed, and we’re up to almost 30 minutes and we haven’t even gotten to the tower site yet! And with 10-15 bashers that tower (~80ql) is likely 70+ dmg by now, with the current system mind you. 

 

So now take the new system under the same scenario. You get the alert when the tower is at 90 damage, and the bashers get a wave of guards attacking them. By the time you figure out what tower is being bashed, where it’s located, how you’re going to contest it, and have your players grouped at the nearest deed, the tower AND it’s defenders will be long gone. Those 10 or so guards that spawned (I’m assuming 10) are just a nuisance with 10-15 bashers, and won’t take long to kill at all. 

 

I like the effort that was put into this, but can you see now how this new alert system isn’t going to work well? The reason we PvPers wanted capping removed is because it was way too quick for anyone to even bother trying to contest. With tower bashing as it is currently, if you have someone online with the proper title you are given just enough warning to do something about it, IF you have enough players online. With this new system you’re just bringing it in line with capping, which defeats the whole purpose. 

 

I suggest keeping the alerts as is, and simply adding the server wide message when the tower is destroyed. However, if you’re dead set on introducing this new alert system at least start the alerts at the first wave of guards (30dmg) to give ample time for contesting. 

You're absolutely right with this. We've made a change that allows guards to prevent bashing towers. Our goal is going to be to keep it at the 90 damage mark, as we feel it might make for some really memorable moments. If a kingdom is alerted at 30/60, then gets rallied together and out to the tower with 70 damage being inflicted, it's very easy for the opposing kingdom to back off and determine it's not worth it. By putting the marker at 90, we're attempting to put the attacking kingdom into a "commitment" to take the tower. Leaving a tower at 95-98 damage because the defenders came into local is going to be a really tough call. We want this to happen. It could end up with moments where a kingdom sacrifices part of their force to take down the tower.

 

Of course, it's possible that this doesn't turn out this way, and we end up with the opposing kingdom simply taking the tower and leaving. If this becomes commonplace, we can always revisit the mechanic and make tweaks to when the alert goes out. It's very hard to get these mechanics right without doing live testing on them first. Just know that we're not putting our foot down and saying "this is how it is and always will be" - we're open to adjusting the numbers in the future to improve the system. It's hard to know whether to overtune or undertune this system for release. On one hand, if you make the alert too early, players will just simply avoid bashing towers as it's not worth it, expecting the opposing kingdom to outmatch them. On the other hand, if we place it too late, players are going to be attacking towers rapidly across the map because the system is in a place that's very good for that. We're going with the latter, as we'd prefer to make players aggressively use this system to start. If it gets too crazy, we'll dial it back. Furthermore, we also believe that this opens up the opportunity for smaller kingdoms to make a play on larger kingdoms without having to fight their full force.

 

As a final point, we're not intent on making bricks used to repair the towers right now. We can look into it for a future update, but right now we're happy with simply preventing players from repairing towers while there are enemies in local. If you want to repair a tower, you'll need to push them off the objective and out of your local to re-establish control to repair.

 

On 12/12/2018 at 4:15 AM, Gladiator said:

I highly doubt these 4 things are particularly bad. Honestly, i wouldn't even notice . Templars don't do anythnig they're useless either way, the fact that you will bash 3 times faster is still an extremely hard bash considering that on a steel mine door you deal 1 damage (Literally just one damage per bash) , like, wow you deal 3 damage instead... great.. still going to take hours to get anywhere. I think there needs to be worse restrictions for a deed outside your tower chain than this, this is a joke

Opinions might vary on this, really. While individually none of these penalties seems very severe, when combined and put into practice, they may make a significant difference. Inflicting decay on a longhouse through cutting it's chain can be very punishing, and requires a ton of maintenance. It's easier to say "just repair the walls with brick every few days" than to actually do it. In time, we'll see how this plays out. It's important to note that the goal wasn't to cripple non-chained deeds, simply provide penalties that give incentive for enemies to raid it more easily. If players are able to use these mechanics to wipe deeds off the map rapidly, then the goals of the system have failed. If players are using these mechanics to strengthen their position before committing to a raid, the goals of the system have succeeded.

 

On 12/12/2018 at 1:35 PM, MrGARY said:

Would like to confirm since no one else has asked that I noticed, this affects only Chaos and Elevation yeah?  Since home servers are 100% influence always and there is no tower warfare there

Correct. This system is limited to Chaos and Elevation. It's also tied to a feature that can be toggled on and off, server-specific, at any time. If any unforseen circumstances occur on any server after the implementation of this feature, it can be disabled without a restart until a fix can be deployed.

 

On 12/12/2018 at 1:50 PM, Kabill said:

When the influence chain gets broken, are the towers/deeds affected immediately? If so you should probably consider a "grace period." Maybe something around 12-24 hours. 

Yes, they will begin to be affected immediately. We're not launching with a grace period, but it can be implemented afterwards if necessary.

 

4 hours ago, Mclavin said:

So will an enemy be able to drop a deed if a tower isn't linked? Again this was the main reason we wanted tower chaining. Can a dev confirm yes/no when it's good timing for them?

Correct. The new tower chaining feature also requires that deeds be founded with the token within 50 tiles of a chained tower, instead of 50 tiles of kingdom influence. This means a chained tower is absolutely required and the token cannot be placed outside of existing tower influence.

 

Any deeds that already exist outside of tower influence are grandfathered in to the system and wont be penalized, assuming there is a valid tower nearby within chaining distance (120 tiles).

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is excellent, thanks for feed back. 90 damage mark with guards preventing the bashing will create Very tense moments. I know for a fact I've stayed in local of a charging enemy whilst capping a tower because we had 1 minute left...So yes you're right.

Towers being needed to deed is really great too and was the core reason for this for many players. 

The penalties will be enough inventive to chain up. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bad idea - Wurm goes more and more worst ?

 

Deeds far away have no chance more - give me back Wurm 2009 please!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know if I missed something but was wondering about new pmk's - as I understand it they would put up a tower - no guards would spawn until they get a deed up and make it the capital?  Or would they have to deed first then tower? Cos that would leave a new pmk very vulnerable for a while to attack while they built the tower which can take a while.

 

Edit: Don't worry this has been answered - make as freedom then convert duh me ?

Edited by Rhianna

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, khatanka said:

Bad idea - Wurm goes more and more worst ?

 

Deeds far away have no chance more - give me back Wurm 2009 please!

 

Back in 2009 you couldn't deed without chaining towers, this is essentially undoing the "deed anywhere, cap any tower" mechanic.  Minus being penalized this time for not being linked, this is giving you Wurm 2009 back

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can I ask, how will making a PMK word? Would you have to Chain freedom towers to your spot then deed? then drop a PMK?

Edited by Mclavin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Mclavin said:

Can I ask, how will making a PMK word? Would you have to Chain freedom towers to your spot then deed? then drop a PMK?

 

God that would be a nightmare - there are so few freedom towers as it is

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Sindusk said:

Yes, they will begin to be affected immediately. We're not launching with a grace period, but it can be implemented afterwards if necessary.

Good to know it could be considered after release! I'll expand on why I think it might be worth looking into.

 

With the 3x mine door bashing and slower guard re-spawns, breaking the chain is going to be mandatory pre-raid. Well maybe not raids intended to go straight to the token, drain, and leave. Now that's not inherently a bad thing, but consider one of Wurms major issues with PvP/raiding - time zones. It will make overnight raids far more destructive. Overnight meaning when the would be defenders are expected to be asleep, at work, or otherwise unable to log in. I'm fairly sure the majority of the player base would agree being raided while offline isn't fun, and it doesn't promote PvP for either side. Between sleeping, and potentially going to work in the morning, attackers might have half a day with no or very little resistance! It won't be fun to come home from work to have to fix a deed, and build a tower. Especially since all your mine doors will be broken into at that point, and you may not have any resources left to rebuild with.

 

Larger kingdoms will be able to bully out smaller kingdoms from deeds. TC could easily bash newly built towers, keeping deeds in a near perpetual state of decay. No one will stay long-term on a deed where they have to constantly repair everything. Yeah that's kinda the point of this update, but in my opinion destroying the same tower over and over to burn out the enemy isn't much of a conquest. Should take many towers in the chain, or long-term sieges to the deed to make defenders burn out and leave.

 

And last point I just thought of after seeing that you want cool fights, and players to potentially make risky decisions. If there were a grace period that defenders could use to fix the chain, the attacking kingdom would need players keeping an eye on the area so they could prevent the new tower from being built. As this would be occurring in enemy influence, it could be quite risky, especially if this was over the course of 12+ hours. Open PvP away from deeds is significantly more fun and exciting than gate/mine hopping! 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last time I checked, the distance between towers is calculated given the bigger of the two between the 'x' distance and the 'y' distance. If this is still the case, it means we need to build in square grids to get optimum spacing. If we use pythag to calculate the distance instead, it would allow different layouts of towers, while still keeping optimum spacing. Hexagon grids for example. And it would be easier to work around map features such as mountains or coastlines.

 

a910d5268c110399837788de8290cf69.png

Edited by Talor
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Will tower chaining happen on the new steam WO PvP server ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There isn't going to be a new PvP server.  This was announced like last year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

There isn't going to be a new PvP server.  This was announced like last year.

From what I understand there is a new pvp server coming to steam, sure it was retro that said as much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Wargasm said:

There isn't going to be a new PvP server.  This was announced like last year.

 Yes, there is a PvP and PvE one coming to steam 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't feel like digging for the post, but I'm 100% sure they said they were going to 'postpone' (which in Wurm Dev speak means cancel) the launch of the PvP server.  @Retrogradecan confirm.

 

And to answer your question.... if there was a pvp server... yes, they would likely include tower chaining because kingdom influence is far too easy to exploit without it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

I don't feel like digging for the post

 

I can confirm and know right where it was 

On 10/5/2019 at 3:07 PM, Samool said:

Instead we’ll be working on incorporating those ideas into a PvP server we intend to launch alongside the Steam PvE server.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Wargasm said:

I don't feel like digging for the post, but I'm 100% sure they said they were going to 'postpone' (which in Wurm Dev speak means cancel) the launch of the PvP server.  @Retrogradecan confirm.

 

And to answer your question.... if there was a pvp server... yes, they would likely include tower chaining because kingdom influence is far too easy to exploit without it.

This is stupid.

Why even post misinformation if you can't verify it beforehand and can't be bothered?

 

And just so you know, i have verified it with Retrogarde, in the WO discord and he has confirmed to me that... 

 

 

You are absolutely wrong.

Edited by atazs
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this