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Seriphina

Useless rare solution

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There's a lot of rares that we end up with that have no real purpose or benefit. Just today I got another rare rounded stone. They end up being sacrificial fodder. What if they had a better purpose? What if we could have a good reason for not having to hang our heads in sadness over yet another useless rare?


My proposal is that we gather 100 rare items to sacrifice at a time, each with less than 20.00 damage, and place them into one of the blessed metal altars (not wood or stone). This would be any rare from those rounded stones, to meals, to sprouts and coins. By sacrificing 100 rare items in one go, the gods would reward us with a rare bone.

 

200px-Strange_bone.jpg

 

Where is the balance? You have to collect and store 100 rare items to prepare for this, and they each have to have less than 20.00 damage. If you end up with 3 rare lemons from your harvest, you need to prevent their decay if you want to use them as a part of your sacrifice.

 

Alternately, this sacrifice could guarantee that your next improve/create action would result in a rare result if the concern is the value of the bones on the market.  If your next action is to tend a field, then so be it. But adding a plank to a cart, improving armor, finally finishing that guard tower, whatever action you choose, would give a rare final result.

Edited by Seriphina
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23 minutes ago, armyskin said:

Cool so I can make a rare bone each day from digging. +1

You get 100 rares a day from digging?  That's impressive.

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wts supreme grapes

 

 

I like the, "next action you do will be a rare roll" - just be careful not to pray after saccing :)

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Honestly, I feel like this would just promote churning out cheap rares for the explicit purpose of sacrificing for rare bones, and I'm not sure I"d like that.

 

I'd rather see those useless rares become more useful somehow, personally. Would be nice to have a use for those rare slate bricks I've got.

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Interesting idea, and could make collecting rare items much more exciting.

 

It certainly would shake up the small rare finds market, but would it devalue rare bones? :) Time would tell.

 

It does hold my attention though. Thanks for the thread Seriphina. :)  

Edited by Muse

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A nice idea Seriphina. I think 100 rares to create 1 rare bone when sacrificed seems reasonable as it will take quite a long time to amass that amount and it will finally reward those with something more useful who save them for this purpose. I don't see the need for a metal altar to be used though as any type should be good enough. It will take up a lot of alt storage though, heh.

 

=Ayes=

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8 minutes ago, Ayes said:

A nice idea Seriphina. I think 100 rares to create 1 rare bone when sacrificed seems reasonable as it will take quite a long time to amass that amount and it will finally reward those with something more useful who save them for this purpose. I don't see the need for a metal altar to be used though as any type should be good enough. It will take up a lot of alt storage though, heh.

 

=Ayes=

@AyesThe metal altars need priests to bless them, so they get a little love from demand for creating the altars.  Figured that adds another little hoop to jump through, at least in the beginning.

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While I like idea of refining rare essence from rares to be used for something else I don't really like the idea of implementation... 100 rare sacables is 10s or less at today's market? Makes rare bones pretty much overpriced and those are harder to get than 100 rare junk (alts that spam 24/7 for rares would go nuts for those fortunate to have strong enough machines that can support several clients running). I personally would like ability to refine rare essence tied to alchemy for example, extracting rare essence from items using some ingridients, source crystal to hold it maybe, would be cool if we could butcher bones of some large animals and apply enough source crystals holding rare essence untill it becomes rare (100-150 maybe, same story for supreme, fantastic) something like that would make more sense to me than sacing 100 rares at ones for bone but maybe that's just me

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I like the idea of making useless rares useful, one way or another.

 

Probably the simplest way would be to give a skill tick for saccing a rare, and bump up supreme/fantastic a bit, though I wouldn't be opposed to more elaborate ideas.

 

I still want to be able to put rares in BSBs/FSBs, so there's that. :P

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so 3 personal merchants or 2 alts mass make items for a few days here is a rare bone and here and here and suddenly rare bone price is even lower then 15s and even harder to sell
id love the idea as it would make me have a high amount of rare bones coming in vs me digging for them but for the sake of the game im giving it a -1
if 5 accounts made bricks for 10 hours you will have around 15-20 rares atleast if not more if it is at 100 that means atleast 1 rare bone per week just from spamming bricks to sell

what kochinac explains would be better but maybe up the numbers a bit more not just 100 maybe 150-200 for rare bone

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It has always bothered me how useless some of the rare items are. I saw people making mods on Unlimited that would grant bones through sacrificing, give skill gain, or even provide other benefits separate from rarity entirely. However, there's already rules in place that rarity follows, it's just not implemented very well. When you consume a rare item while improving, there's a small chance that it transfers rarity (1/100). When you use a rare material to continue an item, it would provide a chance of transferring rarity as well (1 in however many materials are required). Following that mindset, I thought it would make more sense if rare materials just "worked" properly, and thus made the following changes to my WU server:

 

  • Rarity Improvements
    • Rarity windows now operate on bad luck protection similar to recently introduced treasure map finding.
    • Rare materials now have a 5% chance to transfer rarity during improvement and creation actions scaled based on weight used.
    • This applies to any combinable resource used to create an item or improve an item. For example, using a rare lump will have a 5% total chance to transfer its rarity over the 1kg it has.
    • The chance is modified based on the amount used to improve or create with. For example, if you use 0.1kg of supreme lump while improving your pickaxe, that improvement action (if successful) will have a 0.5% chance of turning the pickaxe supreme.
    • This makes it so that combining rare materials is no longer detrimental to obtaining rares. When you combine up a 40kg rare iron lump, consuming it to improve would net on average 2 rares via improvement.
    • Furthermore, creating items using rare components such as handles, blades, nails, planks, etc. are now much better as well.
      • The following system only applies to items which are created in their entirety from two consumable resources. For example, using a rare handle and a rare sword blade to create a sword would use this system. Using a rare anvil and a rare lump will not use this system, since the anvil is not consumed in the process. Metallurgy does work. Using rare charcoal with rare iron will produce rare steel, for example.
      • When the item is created, it will roll randomly between the two rarities of the resources used to create it, distributed equally.
      • For example, using a rare handle with a supreme blade will give a 50% chance at a rare, and 50% chance at a supreme.
      • Using a normal handle on that same supreme blade would yield a 33% chance at normal, 33% chance at rare, and 33% chance at supreme.
      • Using a fantastic handle on the supreme blade would offer a 50% chance at supreme, 50% chance on fantastic.
      • If both items are the same rarity, it completely guarantees that the resulting item will be the same rarity. A fantastic handle and a fantstic blade will always create a fantastic sword.

 

I find solutions like this to be far more eloquent in design than the ones than simple conversion of the rares into something else. If you're making arrow shafts, and get a rare arrow shaft... you should have a strong chance to make a rare arrow from it. It shouldn't just be spamming rare arrow shafts so you can eventually sacrifice a lot of them to get something else. That type of mindset generally encourages "gaming" the system to obtain as many rares as possible to achieve the final reward as many times as you can for maximum profit.

 

That said, it's not like what I did was that much better. People ended up spamming shafts and handles so they could have good chances to create a rare tool. But at least they were creating a component of the rare they were aiming for, allowing them to do what's called "deterministic farming" towards their objective. Making a bunch of shafts and handles doesn't end with them being able to rare their dragonscale.

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3 hours ago, Sindusk said:

It has always bothered me how useless some of the rare items are. I saw people making mods on Unlimited that would grant bones through sacrificing, give skill gain, or even provide other benefits separate from rarity entirely. However, there's already rules in place that rarity follows, it's just not implemented very well. When you consume a rare item while improving, there's a small chance that it transfers rarity (1/100). When you use a rare material to continue an item, it would provide a chance of transferring rarity as well (1 in however many materials are required). Following that mindset, I thought it would make more sense if rare materials just "worked" properly, and thus made the following changes to my WU server:

 

  • Rarity Improvements
    • Rarity windows now operate on bad luck protection similar to recently introduced treasure map finding.
    • Rare materials now have a 5% chance to transfer rarity during improvement and creation actions scaled based on weight used.
    • This applies to any combinable resource used to create an item or improve an item. For example, using a rare lump will have a 5% total chance to transfer its rarity over the 1kg it has.
    • The chance is modified based on the amount used to improve or create with. For example, if you use 0.1kg of supreme lump while improving your pickaxe, that improvement action (if successful) will have a 0.5% chance of turning the pickaxe supreme.
    • This makes it so that combining rare materials is no longer detrimental to obtaining rares. When you combine up a 40kg rare iron lump, consuming it to improve would net on average 2 rares via improvement.
    • Furthermore, creating items using rare components such as handles, blades, nails, planks, etc. are now much better as well.
      • The following system only applies to items which are created in their entirety from two consumable resources. For example, using a rare handle and a rare sword blade to create a sword would use this system. Using a rare anvil and a rare lump will not use this system, since the anvil is not consumed in the process. Metallurgy does work. Using rare charcoal with rare iron will produce rare steel, for example.
      • When the item is created, it will roll randomly between the two rarities of the resources used to create it, distributed equally.
      • For example, using a rare handle with a supreme blade will give a 50% chance at a rare, and 50% chance at a supreme.
      • Using a normal handle on that same supreme blade would yield a 33% chance at normal, 33% chance at rare, and 33% chance at supreme.
      • Using a fantastic handle on the supreme blade would offer a 50% chance at supreme, 50% chance on fantastic.
      • If both items are the same rarity, it completely guarantees that the resulting item will be the same rarity. A fantastic handle and a fantstic blade will always create a fantastic sword.

 

I find solutions like this to be far more eloquent in design than the ones than simple conversion of the rares into something else. If you're making arrow shafts, and get a rare arrow shaft... you should have a strong chance to make a rare arrow from it. It shouldn't just be spamming rare arrow shafts so you can eventually sacrifice a lot of them to get something else. That type of mindset generally encourages "gaming" the system to obtain as many rares as possible to achieve the final reward as many times as you can for maximum profit.

 

That said, it's not like what I did was that much better. People ended up spamming shafts and handles so they could have good chances to create a rare tool. But at least they were creating a component of the rare they were aiming for, allowing them to do what's called "deterministic farming" towards their objective. Making a bunch of shafts and handles doesn't end with them being able to rare their dragonscale.

@SinduskI would love to see rarity work properly.  Also, there are items in the game which are components that have a potential to become rare, but final result is impossible to be rare, especially the materials introduced as new wall and floor types.  So we can have the opportunity to show off their glowyness (which I actually personally don't like as it makes everything look plastic and flat) or keep those components in a separate container and hope we remember to use them on the project since they can't just be binned.  I've gotten rare maple sap. It was one tick of the harvest action, so the rest of the sap in the tree was wasted because they couldn't be combined.  Some examples I've gotten or know of:

Rounded Stone

Pottery Brick

Slate Shingle

Pottery Shingle

Stone Slab

Slate Brick

Gate Lock

Padlock

Door Lock

With many of these, when you're making them, you're making A LOT of them. So there's actually a pretty good chance of them turning rare.  It becomes almost like a failure result because you can't just toss it in the bin and ignore it either.  Then there's the rare results that people should be able to make a conscious decision that are a waste, such as produce. I've gotten rare maple sap. It was one tick of the harvest action, so the rest of the sap in the tree was wasted because they couldn't be combined. Rare Lemons that are more than likely going to be wasted.  We should have the option to put rare (and enchanted while we're at it) into BSBs, FSBs, and crates and destroy their uniqueness or whatever it is the notice pops up and says. Since there's and auto-message anyway about preserving the rarity or enchantment, can it be a pop-up instead so we can confirm we know the consequence of our action?

 

Edited by Seriphina

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While I agree that Sindusk doesn't cover items that has no chance to transfer rarity as they aren't components of any item or can't be used for imping I wouldn't not say that rare lemon is a waste and that it's worth more as a regular lemon in fsb rather than sac for 100 nutrition full bar. Sap on the other hand is total ######, you don't get the rest of the sap, you can't sac it I belive, cooking it to syrup removes rarity which is blah you still got 1kg of sap instead of 4kg you could but you can use it if you bother to cook seperatly.

I would love to see rare liquids be refilled with regular ones and still holding rarity so we have rare water for tempering (it's quenching and it's better done in oil but Rolf didn't know his blacksmithing back in the days so whatever), washing which would hold enchants longer, enchanted rare syrup that will make slightly better sandwiches, rare lye that could hold imbue longer for better leather making etc.

Despite Sindusk opinion I still like option for refining rare essence just  needs to be unlocked behind skill, other resources, high numbers so it's harder to get than rare bone.

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maybe instead of converting 'useless' rares to  more useful rares, they could instead be used as a resource to make something else?  Put it under alchemy;  maybe it could be an item that improves the quality of consumables like food and drink - only as an example;  other ideas in this vein elude me at the moment.

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On 12/4/2018 at 11:03 PM, Sindusk said:

That said, it's not like what I did was that much better. People ended up spamming shafts and handles so they could have good chances to create a rare tool. But at least they were creating a component of the rare they were aiming for, allowing them to do what's called "deterministic farming" towards their objective. Making a bunch of shafts and handles doesn't end with them being able to rare their dragonscale.

 

To be fair, this isn't much difference from spamming simple items in general to get rares, so it's hardly a new problem, if it is a problem.

 

I like what you posted in general, though, especially the improvements to, er, improving.

 

I still think a solution to "useless" rares would be good, like slate shingles and rounded stone. I have no idea what that would be, though.

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I really like what Sindusk described. It makes sense and also matches player expectations. When the rarity system was new, many players just assumed it worked like that. (Or at least similarly)

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Lets just say mining for a day can give you 10+ rare rocks... turning them to dust to sprinkle around or sac 100x of these to get a rare bone is just broken dumb

imo

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