Retrograde

Priest overhaul testing

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32 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Cool! Does this mean Venom will no longer glance against creatures, including uniques?

 

Venom will no longer glance against any creatures except uniques, which will have their normal 50% glance chance. That chance is static and processed after all other calculations. There may be room to change how that works in the future (as well as the way that creature glance rates works because right now I feel it's less than ideal), but it's outside the scope of this update and therefore will not be changed as part of the priest rework.

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9 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

 

Venom will no longer glance against any creatures except uniques, which will have their normal 50% glance chance. That chance is static and processed after all other calculations. There may be room to change how that works in the future (as well as the way that creature glance rates works because right now I feel it's less than ideal), but it's outside the scope of this update and therefore will not be changed as part of the priest rework.

 

Roger that. So Venom will be useless against uniques (which is fine, I just wanted to know :) ).

 

Thanks!

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1 hour ago, Sindusk said:

 

Venom will no longer glance against any creatures except uniques, which will have their normal 50% glance chance. That chance is static and processed after all other calculations. There may be room to change how that works in the future (as well as the way that creature glance rates works because right now I feel it's less than ideal), but it's outside the scope of this update and therefore will not be changed as part of the priest rework.

 

Do we know if "Spell Immunity" still works on the new spells before we put them in the game? 

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3 hours ago, Nocturnes said:

Do we know if "Spell Immunity" still works on the new spells before we put them in the game? 

I've been wanting to test this meditation ability out myself, but have caught no GM's online since you asked me to do that.

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@Nocturnes Hi! tested path of hate spell immunity passive today thanks to Sumbody, it says you resist the inferno or something like that, and it dealt zero damage to me, Path of Power's Elemental immunity also made me completely immune to salved weapons of acid fire and frost, no damage immunity from poison, didn't manage to test Elemental immunity with spells, but will do that tomorrow!

ALSO! Venom finally never glances.

Edited by Wiolo
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Been hearing about this BT nerf again, I'll just repost what I said about it in discord. 10k takes some work, so instead of nerfing it to the ground you should increase other weapon damages so they're on par or very slighly below BT (and I mean less than 1% difference) so BT should be the meta even if its barley a meta because you spent time working towards a endgoal. It's simple.


Nerfing it, just pisses people off and honestly personally, makes my collection of weapons worthless now. I just think this is a silly obsession with finding "balance" that let's face it isn't going to happen in a super old game like this. If weapon enchants were a brand new system something like this wouldn't be such a issue.

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6 hours ago, Wiolo said:

@Nocturnes Hi! tested path of hate spell immunity passive today thanks to Sumbody, it says you resist the inferno or something like that, and it dealt zero damage to me, Path of Power's Elemental immunity also made me completely immune to salved weapons of acid fire and frost, no damage immunity from poison, didn't manage to test Elemental immunity with spells, but will do that tomorrow!

ALSO! Venom finally never glances.

 

 

Thank you, you're a cliff Wiolo (ya its a weird complement)! :D 

If working as intended then the aoe spells should still do dmg on you with the hate passive but most if not all other spells should do 0 dmg?

 

P.S great new pic

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8 hours ago, Niki said:

Been hearing about this BT nerf again, I'll just repost what I said about it in discord. 10k takes some work, so instead of nerfing it to the ground you should increase other weapon damages so they're on par or very slighly below BT (and I mean less than 1% difference) so BT should be the meta even if its barley a meta because you spent time working towards a endgoal. It's simple.


Nerfing it, just pisses people off and honestly personally, makes my collection of weapons worthless now. I just think this is a silly obsession with finding "balance" that let's face it isn't going to happen in a super old game like this. If weapon enchants were a brand new system something like this wouldn't be such a issue.

 

I agree: balance by nerf should be a last resort. Balance by improving other things around the thing to be nerfed is a better option. (Granted, that's not always possible, but in this case, I think it is.)

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9 hours ago, Niki said:

Been hearing about this BT nerf again, I'll just repost what I said about it in discord. 10k takes some work, so instead of nerfing it to the ground you should increase other weapon damages so they're on par or very slighly below BT (and I mean less than 1% difference) so BT should be the meta even if its barley a meta because you spent time working towards a endgoal. It's simple.


Nerfing it, just pisses people off and honestly personally, makes my collection of weapons worthless now. I just think this is a silly obsession with finding "balance" that let's face it isn't going to happen in a super old game like this. If weapon enchants were a brand new system something like this wouldn't be such a issue.

 

My philosophy aligns with increasing the power of other objects instead of "nerfing" existing content. It does create a bit of power creep, but so long as it's controlled and met with increasing challenges, it's really not that big of an issue. That said, the Bloodthirst change was absolutely necessary. This is because it was broken by concept and not through value. The old Bloodthirst functioned by adding flat damage on every attack. The new Bloodthirst increases damage using a multiplier. Some hypothetical examples:

  • Old Bloodthirst at 10k would give +10,000 damage per hit.
  • A 90QL huge axe hits for 25,000 damage per swing, once per 5 seconds. DPS is 5,000.
  • A 90QL short sword hits for 12,000 damage per swing, once per 3 seconds. DPS is 4,000.
  • If the huge axe has 10k BT, it would've had 35,000 damage per swing, once per 5 seconds. DPS is 7,000.
  • If the short sword has 10k BT, it would've had 22,000 damage per swing, once per 3 seconds. DPS is 7,333.

Obviously Bloodthirst was incredibly valuable on fast-attacking weapons. In fact, it turned out that some fast-attacking weapons would straight up outperform their 2h counterparts with identical power Bloodthirst. Take longswords and 2 handed swords for example. In the previous system, given the proper arguments, 2h swords with 10k BT would actually do less damage than a 10k BT longsword. That's just simply not right. We can extend the example above to the new system:

  • If the huge axe has 10k new BT, it will have 33,250 damage per swing, once per 5 seconds. DPS is 6,650.
  • If the short sword has 10k new BT, it will have 16,000 damage per swing, once per 3 seconds. DPS is 5,320.

Using a global multiplier instead of an overloaded flat damage increase creates a balanced atmosphere. Now let's imagine that there are plans to remove the minimum swing timer of 3 seconds from the combat system in the future, and a fast-attacking knife with a 1 second attack is planned.

  • The knife does 3,000 damage per swing, once per second. DPS is 3,000.
  • If the knife has 10k old BT, it would do 13,000 damage per swing, once per second. DPS is 13,000, nearly double that of a huge axe with BT and almost triple without.
  • If the knife has 10k new BT, it would do 4,000 damage per swing, once per second. DPS is 4,000. This is reasonable.

While there's a time and place that flat damage increases can be implemented, Bloodthirst was in a state where it fundamentally undermined the balance of the weapons in the game. Yes, it's being changed to be a net decrease in damage on most weaponry that currently exists right now. Again, there are other changes that are planned that I'll be working on in the near future (it just takes a bit of time to implement). It will help this situation. However, I'd also argue that even without any further changes, Bloodthirst still has it's own value:

  • Damage is added directly to the hit, allowing it to be calculated as physical damage. This is the only enchant that would not be mitigated by Soul Strength.
  • Since the damage is all physical, it cannot be avoided through the likes of Elemental Immunity in meditation, nor reduced by the new jewelry enchants.
  • Elemental enchants do not modify the base hit, and therefore do not apply secondary effects from material such as lead weaponry. Lead weaponry will apply larger poison wounds if Bloodthirst is applied.

I personally believe that the argument for Bloodthirst being dead in the water is heavily overblown, especially considering there are upcoming changes intended for it. I've done my best to explain why it was changed, and I'm aware of the aftermath. We're working to amend the issues brought up by the adjustment, and still feel it was fully necessary both for the existing game balance and making the system more easy to work with in the future.

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9 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

Damage is added directly to the hit, allowing it to be calculated as physical damage. This is the only enchant that would not be mitigated by Soul Strength.

 

Interesting, I didn't know Soul Strength was used to calculate defense against elemental weapon enchants, not just spells.

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14 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

 

My philosophy aligns with increasing the power of other objects instead of "nerfing" existing content. It does create a bit of power creep, but so long as it's controlled and met with increasing challenges, it's really not that big of an issue. That said, the Bloodthirst change was absolutely necessary. This is because it was broken by concept and not through value. The old Bloodthirst functioned by adding flat damage on every attack. The new Bloodthirst increases damage using a multiplier. Some hypothetical examples:

  • Old Bloodthirst at 10k would give +10,000 damage per hit.
  • A 90QL huge axe hits for 25,000 damage per swing, once per 5 seconds. DPS is 5,000.
  • A 90QL short sword hits for 12,000 damage per swing, once per 3 seconds. DPS is 4,000.
  • If the huge axe has 10k BT, it would've had 35,000 damage per swing, once per 5 seconds. DPS is 7,000.
  • If the short sword has 10k BT, it would've had 22,000 damage per swing, once per 3 seconds. DPS is 7,333.

Obviously Bloodthirst was incredibly valuable on fast-attacking weapons. In fact, it turned out that some fast-attacking weapons would straight up outperform their 2h counterparts with identical power Bloodthirst. Take longswords and 2 handed swords for example. In the previous system, given the proper arguments, 2h swords with 10k BT would actually do less damage than a 10k BT longsword. That's just simply not right. We can extend the example above to the new system:

  • If the huge axe has 10k new BT, it will have 33,250 damage per swing, once per 5 seconds. DPS is 6,650.
  • If the short sword has 10k new BT, it will have 16,000 damage per swing, once per 3 seconds. DPS is 5,320.

Using a global multiplier instead of an overloaded flat damage increase creates a balanced atmosphere. Now let's imagine that there are plans to remove the minimum swing timer of 3 seconds from the combat system in the future, and a fast-attacking knife with a 1 second attack is planned.

  • The knife does 3,000 damage per swing, once per second. DPS is 3,000.
  • If the knife has 10k old BT, it would do 13,000 damage per swing, once per second. DPS is 13,000, nearly double that of a huge axe with BT and almost triple without.
  • If the knife has 10k new BT, it would do 4,000 damage per swing, once per second. DPS is 4,000. This is reasonable.

While there's a time and place that flat damage increases can be implemented, Bloodthirst was in a state where it fundamentally undermined the balance of the weapons in the game. Yes, it's being changed to be a net decrease in damage on most weaponry that currently exists right now. Again, there are other changes that are planned that I'll be working on in the near future (it just takes a bit of time to implement). It will help this situation. However, I'd also argue that even without any further changes, Bloodthirst still has it's own value:

  • Damage is added directly to the hit, allowing it to be calculated as physical damage. This is the only enchant that would not be mitigated by Soul Strength.
  • Since the damage is all physical, it cannot be avoided through the likes of Elemental Immunity in meditation, nor reduced by the new jewelry enchants.
  • Elemental enchants do not modify the base hit, and therefore do not apply secondary effects from material such as lead weaponry. Lead weaponry will apply larger poison wounds if Bloodthirst is applied.

I personally believe that the argument for Bloodthirst being dead in the water is heavily overblown, especially considering there are upcoming changes intended for it. I've done my best to explain why it was changed, and I'm aware of the aftermath. We're working to amend the issues brought up by the adjustment, and still feel it was fully necessary both for the existing game balance and making the system more easy to work with in the future.
 

how is that justifying the grind to get to 10k compare to others?

Edited by Rakki

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2 minutes ago, Rakki said:

how is that justifying the grind to get to 10k compare to others?

 

It doesn't, and that's why further changes are planned.

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uhm, well

 

TL;DR is, BT is gonna be a dead spell

i dont care much about it, but might aswell remove it completely tbh

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28 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

If the huge axe has 10k BT, it would've had 35,000 damage per swing, once per 5 seconds. DPS is 7,000.

 

28 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

If the huge axe has 10k new BT, it will have 33,250 damage per swing, once per 5 seconds. DPS is 6,650.

 

3 minutes ago, Quicktor said:

TL;DR is, BT is gonna be a dead spell

 

All right: I feel like I'm missing something. How is a loss of 350 DPS making BT dead? Was everyone using BT shortswords/sickles, or was a top-notch FA enchant that close to BT in DPS already?

 

Plus, looks like it would be easy enough to adjust the modifier such that the huge axe DPS would be the same as before.

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BT is countered by WA so hard that if it isnt a massive dps increase 3s swings will suck

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Much like BT, WA is much more effective on faster weapons as it's a flat decrease in speed (5 seconds at 100, cleanses every 10 seconds iirc) so the weapons that BT is strong on get are more effected by it. a 5s swing would be taken to 10s, or 50% attack speed, where a 3 second would be taken to 8 seconds, or 37.5% attack speed. obviously you're not going to be webbed 24/7 so it's not nearly that much, but it's a pretty massive dps drop for a BT weapon, a BT short sword isn't going to out-dps a huge axe against anyone because everyone uses web armor.

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7 hours ago, Sindusk said:

 

My philosophy aligns with increasing the power of other objects instead of "nerfing" existing content. It does create a bit of power creep, but so long as it's controlled and met with increasing challenges, it's really not that big of an issue. That said, the Bloodthirst change was absolutely necessary. This is because it was broken by concept and not through value. The old Bloodthirst functioned by adding flat damage on every attack. The new Bloodthirst increases damage using a multiplier. .

<snip>

I personally believe that the argument for Bloodthirst being dead in the water is heavily overblown, especially considering there are upcoming changes intended for it. I've done my best to explain why it was changed, and I'm aware of the aftermath. We're working to amend the issues brought up by the adjustment, and still feel it was fully necessary both for the existing game balance and making the system more easy to work with in the future.

 

Last time I checked the new BT is 33% damage at 10k, Frostbrand gives 30% with a 100 cast power. 

 

Other peoples and my main complaint with this NERF are as follows. Small weapons with BT have been the meta for years and thus many people including myself have trained those skills exclusively. I personally use small maul / staff and have high skills in those, this change will make both of those weapons so much worse than med maul/huge axe, it makes no sense to use them at all, making those weapons pretty much worthless in both pve and pvp. I looked through your math and unless some base damages have changed recently to small weapons, the damage is a lot less for frost brand small weapons in real world testing than your math shows.

 

Right now with the existing BT an Addy Small Maul with BT is a fair bit (I would estimate 10-15% last time I did a spreadsheet on it) more damage than a glimmer med maul with frostbrand, however the investment\time required to replace a 10k BT weapon is significantly larger to offset it being better. I prefer balance and choice, with the current BT there is a choice, BT small maul v FB med maul is close enough for example that you can be successful with both, with the new BT there really isn't a choice, nobody in PVP is going to spend the hours it takes to level up a BT weapon, because even with its tiny damage increase its actually worse in pvp because a frostbrand weapon gives two wounds, To make BT worth using in Pvp it needs to be at least 10% more damage than frostbrand (ie 40% at 10k) to offset creating only one wound and the time investment required to get it.

 

Also how about a dps increase for small weapons to compensate for this nerf so they are not 100% useless?

 

 

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8 hours ago, Sindusk said:
 

how is that justifying the grind to get to 10k compare to others?

 

It doesn't, and that's why further changes are planned.

 

 

I posted the last reply before seeing this, if that's the case please don't change BT on live without those "Further changes", half done features are never well received and just annoy the player base.

Edited by Threap

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I dont think 1h weps and small weps should outshine 2h wep dmg though (ever), since they parry more and you have a shield aswell, ontop of that missing or getting a 2h hit parried is a way larger DPS drop then missing a shortsword hit.

 

BUT, we should not make small weps fall out of pvp entirely or "useless" not my words, is there a way to still have them useful and good with BT without competing with 2H weapon dps? or large 1H dps?

Edited by Nocturnes

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Minor update:

  • Priest Rework is now active on the Oracle test server. This is a PvE server and will more closely mimic functionality on Freedom.
  • Libila is now enabled on PvE servers. Some spells are disabled, notably Corrupt (previously Fungus), Zombie Infestation, Land of the Dead, and Rite of Death.
  • Converting a player to Libila on a PvE server should no longer move them into the Horde of the Summoned kingdom. This functionality remains on PvP servers, where converting to Libila will automatically transfer you to the Horde of the Summoned.
  • Dark Messenger can now be used by players in WL kingdoms (including Freedom).

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3 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

and Rite of Death.

Doesn't this put lib/player gods under lib on freedom at a disadvantage, as they don't get a global spell, or is it being modified to work on freedom at a later date?

Edited by Oblivionnreaver

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9 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

Doesn't this put lib/player gods under lib on freedom at a disadvantage, as they don't get a global spell, or is it being modified to work on freedom at a later date?

 

We'll be looking at ways to make Rite of Death functional on Freedom without being a griefing tool. With the new rite tech available, we have more options than before, and getting some good ideas for new benefits to Rite of Death would help along that process.

 

Now that Rites have an effect that lasts 24 hours after being cast, what type of benefit should Rite of Death grant the server when cast on Freedom?

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Curious how transition will be handled? If i have Lib priest that is follower of Vyn on freedom for example, do I need to have him on Chaos the moment of update or will he get priesthood on freedom automaticly after update if he is parked on freedom? or i need to move him to Chaos before update to keep priesthood? also lesser issue but still what with players that have dual religion that they are following, for example again Lib follower on Chaos and Vyn follower on Freedom? will he get stuck with religion of server he is parked on?

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