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Priest overhaul testing

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Can we just be productive in this thread instead of dancing around this resistance that has like little to no effect at all for you?
For fox sake let it go, this is a testing thread not a place to complain, well it partially is but still! lol it has little to no effect! just try using a FB weapon it's fun and you never take enough damage in PvE that makes it so you can't out-heal it.
And generally LT is already kind of un-reliable at rifts.

Edited by Wiolo

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5 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

the abuse cases you were talking about just a minute ago.

 

Is "keeping people from healing off cattle while tanking a unique" important enough to upset a significant portion of the player base? If so, why?

Edited by Roccandil

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one of the many reasons why it's changed, and i don't think i can discuss the other ways of abusing it on the forums without the risk of a mute.

the kind of person to get upset about a change that does literally nothing impactful to them is going to be upset anyway so what does it matter

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On the subject of priest restrictions, I'd just like to point out that while it may be desirable in pvp to be special/unique and compare yourself to others, I think most pve folks really don't care much about what their neighbor/guy-across-the-server can or can't do.   As I've said before, WU has really opened my eyes about a lot of things in Wurm.  It has completely changed my perspective. 

 

For pve I have found that it really doesn't matter if most people also have priestly abilities.  What matters is "Am I having fun playing my character?"   On servers where you don't get all spells, you still have to choose a deity based on their spells and passives, etc.  And not everyone wants to grind channeling and faith so the percentage of high skill priests is no higher than with any other skill class.  So even if I cared what Joe Blow is doing on the other side of the server, everyone still wouldn't be exactly the same.  No more so than with any of the other skills.

 

So, yeah, I know WO will never remove all priest restrictions.  But I sure do think it would be better for the game, as a whole, if they did.   And if it's that important on pvp to be different or special, then I think they could always leave it as-is on pvp.

 

Just my 2 coppers on that.   Never gonna happen, but what the hell.  I feel like talking.    :)

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4 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

one of the many reasons why it's changed, and i don't think i can discuss the other ways of abusing it on the forums without the risk of a mute.

the kind of person to get upset about a change that does literally nothing impactful to them is going to be upset anyway so what does it matter 

 

I guess if your customers don't matter to you, then hey! :P

 

In this case, even if the change won't affect me at all, I've long thought that LT needs a buff to help make Path of Love a PvP-viable choice over SotG, but this is going in the opposite direction, which sucks. :(

 

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12 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

I guess if your customers don't matter to you, then hey! :P

there is a total of 2 people talking about life transfer's nerfs in this entire thread, and one other person suggesting that it should target highest wound like other healing spells, compared to the 2160 current premium accounts. you're acting as if it's A. a huge nerf and B. It's disliked by everyone and they're being ignored when in reality it's a slap on the wrist and one other person doesn't like it enough to be vocal about it in the entire game.

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13 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

there is a total of 2 people talking about life transfer's nerfs in this entire thread, and one other person suggesting that it should target highest wound like other healing spells, compared to the 2160 current premium accounts. you're acting as if it's A. a huge nerf and B. It's disliked by everyone and they're being ignored when in reality it's a slap on the wrist and one other person doesn't like it enough to be vocal about it in the entire game.

 

How many real people do those accounts represent, and how many of those people ever post? Do you really think those who have expressed concern about the LT nerf in this thread are the -only- customers who might possibly care?


Besides, this is a statement of general principle:
 

Quote

the kind of person to get upset about a change that does literally nothing impactful to them is going to be upset anyway so what does it matter 

 

 

To that kind of thinking, the number of upset customers is irrelevant.

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literally no-one i've talked to about the priest updates cares about the lt change, so take that as you will.

 

4 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

To that kind of thinking, the number of upset customers is irrelevant.

if you don't change something because 1 or 2 people might get upset you're pretty much stopping updates entirely, because someone will always be upset, take a look at the threads about iron plate if you want an example, lots of people crying about nothing, lots of platesmiths saying it ruins the value of their grind, ruins their buisness etc. what happened in the end? nothing at all because nobody wears iron plate outside of people that craft it for themselves and everyone grinded PAS with a scale glove anyway.

Edited by Oblivionnreaver

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1 hour ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

if you don't change something because 1 or 2 people might get upset you're pretty much stopping updates entirely, because someone will always be upset, take a look at the threads about iron plate if you want an example, lots of people crying about nothing, lots of platesmiths saying it ruins the value of their grind, ruins their buisness etc. what happened in the end? nothing at all because nobody wears iron plate outside of people that craft it for themselves and everyone grinded PAS with a scale glove anyway.

 

Caring about one's customers doesn't mean never making changes; it simply means one's attitude is different.

 

More precisely, it means looking at potential changes from a customer's point of view. In the case of LT, it's being unambiguously nerfed, for no apparently good reason. That's an easy way to upset customers, no matter how minor the actual nerf.

 

Conversely, while the healing spells are facing the same healing resistance nerf, they're also being buffed to always apply to the highest damage wounds. That makes the overall change to healing spells interesting, and not an unambiguous nerf.

 

If you've got to nerf LT for shadowy reasons of abuse, why not do it the same way? Allow LT to always target highest damage wounds first. I know I'd find that interesting!

 

One thing I'm not capable of, however, is looking forward to seeing something work unequivocally worse than it did before, no matter how minor. Things breaking down is too real, to be honest. :P

Edited by Roccandil

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All the changes there looking at doing , does anyone actually play at what stats they have ingame ?

Or is everyone going on test and cranking up to the max ?

 

If its to the max then anything you get for results are very limited to many but  a few players ..

As you seem to be stuck on LT at the moment , my char on test is set at between 35 to 50 for stats what I have ingame .

Same goes for fighting skills and other skills , armor is studded 70 - 80 QL .   with 70 aosp on pieces.

 

Weapon has LT 88 give or take and nimb  with coc   , fighting a fierce troll I still need to back off at times to use cotton .

LT does not always click and wen it does its not always that much .

 

Play with different stats ones you have in game not the ones you wish you had ..

Then decide what skills or enchants need a little nerf or adding to it .

 

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Still reading through all the comments, but not enough time to write up a full response to everything. However, the back-and-forth over the LT change has spiraled out of control. While I appreciate the concern, the LT change was one that was hotly debated internally when the change was made. Many of the arguments stated here have been discussed among the dev team already months ago when we were first working through this change. I ended up making the decision to push the change, then requested testing of the change to determine whether or not it would stay. In the end, after testing, it was determined to have insignificant enough effect on normal play that we opted to continue along that development path. We even had questioned whether the resistance was being calculated correctly because the resistance time was so low after each hit.

 

5 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

one of the many reasons why it's changed, and i don't think i can discuss the other ways of abusing it on the forums without the risk of a mute.

This is also an important note. The examples I presented are very weak examples of abuse cases for the current state of LT and that's on me for not making it clear. While I understand players seeking more logic behind the change than what's been given, doing so would simply be stating existing exploits that are present in the game that players could currently use on the live servers.

 

All that said, if the change turns out to be impacting player's gameplay negatively, we can make changes such as increasing LT's healing done, reducing the healing resistance applied specifically by LT, or any number of other changes to make it better. However, those changes would be done in response to testing results. If you're concerned, then go give it a shot on the public test server and share your findings. That's what this thread is here for, after all!

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I've tested LT myself, it really doesn't do anything... the resistance increases by ~ 1 and a half of a minute from a fight where I healed in every hit. (I was at ~50% health at the start of the fight) And that is like a 6% reduction in healing. Which is Unnoticeable. It also gives players who use LT a reason to armour up instead of just always healing faster than the damage they take, it adds depth. If you take a lot of damage in a small period of time, your healing resistance will slowly catch up to you if you decide to fight in cloth or sumthin' funky.

Edited by Wiolo

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And by the way... here's a question @SinduskHow do you plan to make Venom function as "chaos damage"? does it ignore armour damage reduction modifiers? like plate base DR being 65% for example being reduced by 65% by venom, or scale being 70%
And chain 62.5% etc. I'm just kinda curios in how you plan to make it function, cause this is an enchant I'm interested in, cause I hate glancing. Heh

Edited by Wiolo

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On ‎10‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 6:58 AM, Rocklobstar said:

I still don't know why you need to keep some restrictions on mining/digging/woodcutting/farming. What happens when a new player starts a vyn priest, and can't mine for iron for tools? Or starts a fo priest, and needs some tree's cleared? Lore should never interfere with such basic quality of life things =(.

I have a happy Nahjo priest who fills his days with casting mend and strongwall and skilled in woodcutting and mining (lvl 99+).

So after the update I have to lose or my mend and go Magranon (and keep woodcutting) or lose my woodcutting and keep to Nahjo.

So same question : why keep different restrictions on mining/digging/woodcutting/farming for each priest ?

For the rest happy with the upcomming update: Mend is improved and a new spell to 'beam over' people.

 

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1 hour ago, Faldor said:

I have a happy Nahjo priest who fills his days with casting mend and strongwall and skilled in woodcutting and mining (lvl 99+).

So after the update I have to lose or my mend and go Magranon (and keep woodcutting) or lose my woodcutting and keep to Nahjo.

So same question : why keep different restrictions on mining/digging/woodcutting/farming for each priest ?

 

 

I wonder this as well. Looking at it from the perspective of a Vynora priest I find the restrictions really weird. Vynora seems to be all about roads, you get bonuses on pavement, etc. With the changes Vynora priests can now dig and thus make some roads, but not all. It seems for some reason Vynora can't mine, even though you can have pavement in mines these days. Vynora also can't strongwall, so a Vynora priest currently can't protect such roads. For a priest who's theme has a lot of road/pavement stuff in it, that's rather weird.

T he only way for a vynora priest to be able to make roads/pavement everywhere would require the ability to dig, woodcut (in order to remove trees which are in the way) and to mine. So I'm really wondering why these restrictions are being kept in place now that they are even going against the theme of a god.

 

The above is why I feel Vynora should have the ability to mine, and the strongwall spell. It makes a lot of sense with the pavement theme. Though I guess a vynora priest can create support beams now, if I'm not mistaken? If so then the case for strongwall isn't nearly as strong as for mining.

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12 hours ago, Wiolo said:

And by the way... here's a question @SinduskHow do you plan to make Venom function as chaos damage? does it ignore armour damage reduction modifiers? like plate base DR being 65% for example being reduced by 65% by venom, or scale being 70%
And chain 62.5% etc. I'm just kinda curios in how you plan to make it function, cause this is an enchant I'm interested in cause I hate glancing. Heh

 

However it's done, I'm hoping Venom will be a viable choice, because that would be an indirect nerf to Smoke from Sol and a buff to the Red Cherry.

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20 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

However it's done, I'm hoping Venom will be a viable choice, because that would be an indirect nerf to Smoke from Sol and a buff to the Red Cherry.

That is a good point! Actually totally negating ignoring all the tome passives that are tweaking any physical damage, if I understand correctly. That way it may even be too OP if works that way...

Edited by Jaz

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15 hours ago, Sindusk said:

All that said, if the change turns out to be impacting player's gameplay negatively, we can make changes such as increasing LT's healing done, reducing the healing resistance applied specifically by LT, or any number of other changes to make it better. However, those changes would be done in response to testing results. If you're concerned, then go give it a shot on the public test server and share your findings. That's what this thread is here for, after all!

 

All right: I'll bite on this one. :P Again, from a customer perspective:

 

- Function X is working for most customers

- Business nerfs function X for secret reasons

- Customers are like, "hey, what?"

- Business says, "the nerf shouldn't affect you, please test to confirm"

- Customers are like, "wait, you want us to test to see if something that -was- working fine is -still- working fine, after a change we didn't want or request?"

- Business says, "yep!"

- Customers: "!!!!"

 

That's my perspective anyhow. :P

 

(And yes, I do know how much work we could all get done if it weren't for those pesky customers.)

Edited by Roccandil

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1 hour ago, Roccandil said:

 

All right: I'll bite on this one. :P Again, from a customer perspective:

 

- Function X is working for most customers

- Business nerfs function X for secret reasons

- Customers are like, "hey, what?"

- Business says, "the nerf shouldn't affect you, please test to confirm"

- Customers are like, "wait, you want us to test to see if something that -was- working fine is -still- working fine, after a change we didn't want or request?"

- Business says, "yep!"

- Customers: "!!!!"

 

That's my perspective anyhow. :P

 

(And yes, I do know how much work we could all get done if it weren't for those pesky customers.)

As someone who works in the game industry, you're missing the step between step 1 and 2:

"Guy who has been reading the server logs: *Palm*, *Palm*, this is really broken, we need to fix this before someone finds it and we get in trouble"

Edited by Etherdrifter

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34 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

As someone who works in the game industry, you're missing the step between step 1 and 2:

"Guy who has been reading the server logs: *Palm*, *Palm*, this is really broken, we need to fix this before someone finds it and we get in trouble"

 

But the customer can't see that. Things will, of course, look different from the perspective of the business.

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There's an issue with healing in games that's kinda  difficult to balance, and it's the reason why LT just heals whatever wound is the newest rather than largest and can't spread the healing among other wounds.
Invincible, if the player heals a bunch of health every hit, than they just can't be killed... And that's what the devs really want to avoid, a champion player for example healing everytime she/he manages to hit and just unable loose health.
The thing is LT is either under powered in PvP or overpowered. A balance is difficult. It's already over powered in PvE because whatever thing you get hit for in PvE you can instantly heal it right after you're hit, especially with fast hitting weapons, like staffs.
 

Edited by Wiolo

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17 minutes ago, Wiolo said:

There's an issue with healing in games that's kinda  difficult to balance, and it's the reason why LT just heals whatever wound is the newest rather than largest and can't spread the healing among other wounds.
Invincible, if the player heals a bunch of health every hit, than they just can't be killed... And that's what the devs really want to avoid, a champion player for example healing everytime she/he manages to hit and just unable loose health.
The thing is LT is either under powered in PvP or overpowered. A balance is difficult. It's already over powered in PvE because whatever thing you get hit for in PvE you can instantly heal it right after you're hit, especially with fast hitting weapons, like staffs.
 

 

Balance may be difficult, but not impossible. "Leech resistance" is a thing, for instance, and it would be nice if LT were actually viable in PvP, if only with Path of Love (SotG needs some competition).

 

I'll add, though, that my disgruntlement is not so much technical as it is procedural. :P That is, I can accept that the nerf probably won't affect my gameplay in any noticeable way (though I still see no good reason for it).

 

Rather, the way the nerf was revealed left a bad taste in my mouth. To quote Sindusk:

 

18 hours ago, Sindusk said:

...the LT change was one that was hotly debated internally when the change was made. Many of the arguments stated here have been discussed among the dev team already months ago when we were first working through this change.

 

If that was the initial response of the -developers-, then that's an indication that certain, shall we say, unruly members of the customer base might have a similar reaction. ;)

 

Since the primary reason for the change has evidently not been revealed, this is a "trust us, we know what we're doing" situation, but the best way to engender that trust is to be up-front about the potential bad news, and that didn't happen.

 

I'm not interested is spreading blame around, mind you, but if something I care about is going to be nerfed, I'd much rather hear about it up front, if at all possible (and I know that's not always possible).

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I am sorry but the last couple of pages seems to have turned into an LT debate instead of constructive feedback about the overall priest overhaul. What doe people think would make the priests better without talk of LT for a while. Some people have come up with good suggestions. I thought that it may be a good time to go through the thread and see who came up with some good stuff and maybe give it a thumbs up so people could compare and maybe get more ideas that may help the Devs. 

 

ALSO I THINK THE LT HORSE IS DEAD PLEASE LET IT REST IN PEACE.

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Also, Tosiek should have Bloodthirst instead of Life Transfer, really. Libila should not be the only deity who has that... cause then it will be really annoying to get...
Also why is Tosiek the only deity who has no armour enchants? he is a deity who isn't really that focused on combat powers, he should get WA (I forgot about Fo) but still, and Fo should get AoSP too, goodness.
Also remove this crumpling cruddy feature, and just restrict it between kingdoms instead of WL/BL [22:16:29] Nathan would never help the infidel Billingsley.


 

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