Retrograde

Priest overhaul testing

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6 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

people are just complaining to complain, unless you're fighting dragons in 50ql cloth while beating up pigs with lt weapons and two alts spamming heals on you you won't get enough resistance to matter

I can't write a full response to everything right now but as a quick comment: @Oblivionnreaverhit the nail on the head with this. Basically, players were capable of using livestock as a "healing source" during unique fights and similar. Instead of using actual healing spells through a Fo priest or similar, I've seen situations where a group of players would have the player tanking the unique target nearby horses, pigs, or whatever that were brought along. Each time the player was hit by the unique, they would heal up through a big hit on a low-armour target. Personal experience says that an LT longsword hit on a pig can heal the player for upwards of 10-15 damage on a wound. Given proper armour, shield, and skill, a tank could effectively hold a unique indefinitely due to LT never having healing resistance, with the life pool of the neutral creatures becoming an extension of the player's HP.

 

When I'm talking about abuse cases regarding LT, it's situations like that which I refer to. This is one example, but there's a few others that this change also shores up.

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36 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

Basically, players were capable of using livestock as a "healing source" during unique fights and similar.

 

Why is that a problem? Doesn't sound exploitable in PvP, and against a unique, it's not going to do you any good unless your team can out-DPS the unique's regen, in which case, I don't really care what kind of healing you use. (And, you -still- gotta gather and manage that herd you're going to burn through.)

 

From a player perspective, it feels like you're upsetting a solid, well-enjoyed mechanic to put the kibosh on a few corner cases, at least some of which regard unique fights, which are already pretty wonky gameplay. :)

 

That is, you're damaging a good mechanic to heal a scratch on a badly-wounded one. :(

 

BTW, any reason to not allow LT to target highest-damage wounds? Seems like everything else is. (Oh, and while I'm at it, would be great if we could right-click a player with cotton/salve/etc. and heal the highest-damage wound...)

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I do agree that healing all your wounds from attacking livestock is a bit silly.
Even in PvE situations where you're a new player fighting tough mobs for example. You could just run out and fully heal in a minute if you killed some horses or wolves.
LT being hooked up to the global resistance makes sense to me now.

Edited by Wiolo

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I still don't know why you need to keep some restrictions on mining/digging/woodcutting/farming. What happens when a new player starts a vyn priest, and can't mine for iron for tools? Or starts a fo priest, and needs some tree's cleared? Lore should never interfere with such basic quality of life things =(.

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22 minutes ago, Wiolo said:

I do agree that healing all your wounds from attacking livestock is a bit silly.
Even in PvE situations where you're a new player fighting tough mobs for example. You could just run out and fully heal in a minute if you killed some horses or wolves.
Now LT being hooked up to the same global resistance is starting to make sense to me.

 

If a new player has access to LT, they'll likely have access to much better gear overall anyhow (like my alts). Even at 1 fight, they never had a problem with mobs, but LT was only a part of that.

 

To be honest, if healing from livestock is silly, then the basic concept of LT is silly.

 

EDIT: Actually, I think the silliness issue is more the general prevalence of livestock. If I get badly wounded, I can easily look for something squishy to kill, because more than likely one will be right there. That doesn't feel right.

Edited by Roccandil

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29 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Why is that a problem? Doesn't sound exploitable in PvP,

you'd be able to get around heal resistance by targeting random mobs you found while in pvp, and for the unique with a LT small maul you can heal a full hit from the unique every 3 seconds, compared to heal light, which is a 10 second cast, heal all which is a 40 second cast, and light of fo which is a 10 second cast with 5 minutes resistance, it's much more powerful than having dedicated priests alts healing you, and they can join the fight instead of healing you, which leads to more dps. finding 4 passive mobs per person while on the way there isn't really that hard, and one person tanking by beating up small critters obviously isn't an intended mechanic so if it makes a difference or not is out of the picture

 

well enjoyed mechanic/good mechanic is a bit of a stretch, i don't think i've ever heard of how much they like sacrificing small animals in order to get hit more. i'm not really sure how LT having resistance after a while (even going from 10% hp to max didn't max out resistance) its not like it's going to effect anyone outside of people tanking endlessly

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

you'd be able to get around heal resistance by targeting random mobs you found while in pvp, and for the unique with a LT small maul you can heal a full hit from the unique every 3 seconds, compared to heal light, which is a 10 second cast, heal all which is a 40 second cast, and light of fo which is a 10 second cast with 5 minutes resistance, it's much more powerful than having dedicated priests alts healing you, and they can join the fight instead of healing you, which leads to more dps. finding 4 passive mobs per person while on the way there isn't really that hard, and one person tanking by beating up small critters obviously isn't an intended mechanic so if it makes a difference or not is out of the picture

 

Healing up on a random mob in PvP doesn't sound like a problem to me. Tanking with small critters? May not be intended, but hardly a reason to upset the apple cart.

 

I feel like we're dancing around the -actual- problem, which seems to be the minimum number of people required to kill a unique. Is that accurate?

 

I might add that making uniques harder to kill is a bad thing for new players on Epic...

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@Wiolo

Could you test something for me, I would be very grateful if anyone could tell me how the path of hate buff fowkrs against the new spells.

 

If working as inteded then all the new offensive spells except the new aoes shoueldnt work on the hate passive buff

This might also need your confirmation @Sindusk

 

Its best if we try to work this out before the update, eveh though it isnt anything about priests its directly linked to the new spells added.

 

"Spell Immunity

Gained at level 11

Spell Immunity - gives protection against offensive spells (details needed)

Does not protect from AoE effects (Confirmed by Rolf via IRC June 2013)"

Edited by Nocturnes

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22 hours ago, Sindusk said:

I'll bring up the Libila farming restriction and see what the team thinks.

This is one thing that should be universal throughout all priests as it currently is the way priests obtain their favor. Expecting someone to always buy their own favor from someone else goes against the intended purpose of making priests more self sufficient and be more friendly to be a main character, and good luck in making trade with a libila priest happen on the Freedom cluster as it stands now.

 

23 hours ago, Sindusk said:

You can always counter with "okay then just fix those spells too" - to which I would counter "what else is broken?" While I'd love to investigate that and potentially work towards this goal, the dev team has decided that it was outside the scope of what we want to accomplish with this specific update and that the option remains open for sometime in the future. Retrograde echos this statement in the video linked.

 

What about disabling these spells on Freedom? Would this solve the problem? This is often done with similar spells on different deities, no?

 

23 hours ago, Sindusk said:

We don't want players to sit there healing their wounds with cotton. And the healing resistance on LT, as stated a million times already, is not as severe as everyone is painting it right now. When actually in use, the effects are hardly felt. Life Transfer is just as good as it's always been outside of abuse cases.

What abuse cases? Not having to cotton while hunting? As it stands right now, LT usefulness is debatable in pvp. People rather use anything but LT as the healing potential during pvp is so minimal with sword and board that people often forsake its use for a damage dealing spell, and I have yet to see anyone using a 2h defensively (those usually just keel over in a couple hits). Whats wrong with the way it works now?

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A little bit more on what I mentioned about Libila spells, the reason why I am so insistent on this change is because currently (as much as I love it) Libila priests are the only priests that are allowed to continue crafting, imping, skilling, etc after priesting up. This is a huge loophole and an amazing advantage few people are aware of. All I have to do is sail to Freedom where I become a follower of another god (since libila is disabled) and I can go imp to my hearts content. This is something that should be addressed.

Edited by Angelklaine

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I'm confused by the damage bonus effect.

Edited by Wiolo

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1 hour ago, Angelklaine said:

A little bit more on what I mentioned about Libila spells, the reason why I am so insistent on this change is because currently (as much as I love it) Libila priests are the only priests that are allowed to continue crafting, imping, skilling, etc after priesting up. This is a huge loophole and an amazing advantage few people are aware of. All I have to do is sail to Freedom where I become a follower of another god (since libila is disabled) and I can go imp to my hearts content. This is something that should be addressed.

 

I wasn't aware of that: very interesting. Devs, pls add Epic no-priest island for goalz. :P

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Well, if the only problem scenario with LT is during rifts, why not just have active rifts prevent heal resistance on PvE servers?  Call it "rift interference", make it a buff obtained while walking in an active rift (5 min duration once out of rift).

 

It removes the problem while still keeping the balance (might also encourage some public rift slayings...)

 

Also; when it comes to making Fo more interesting: Morning Fog, Sixth Sense and Ward stick out as spells with no real PvE use.  Improving morning fog to prevent beestings, or ward to grant fo's animal passive as a buff to other players, or even extending sixth sense to work as a buff to quickly see if an area is foragable/botanisable would all be good for local utility.

 

For a meatier upgrade; why not using "heal" to enchant covers to also apply a small amount of magical healing on use (something like 1 per 10 cast power for a max of 10 at 100 power).  I doubt it would be gamebreaking, due to how long covers take to apply.

Edited by Etherdrifter

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On 10/16/2018 at 9:36 PM, Retrograde said:

Lurker in the Woods - Now able to locate unique creatures as well as champions.

Thoughts on this after doing a bit of champion hunting on xanadu. Unless this will locate them even if it hits a champion, or show everything it's hit it's not going to change much. I'm up in the north running around with my LITW finding champs to get some fs, and no matter where i search, there's always a champion within 50 tiles of me, and if it's on deed there's no way to stop hitting it. i've killed around 20 champs in a 500m x 500m area right off the side of a highway and i'm still finding new champs to kill. It's going to make finding uniques on 8x8 servers even easier than they already are, so good luck finding one if you're not out searching within 15 minutes of it spawning, but there's just too many champions left over from missions on the larger servers to impact them. Removes the usefulness of reveal creatures aswell, but whether that's a good or bad thing is dependent on whether you like priests for hunting or not.

Edited by Oblivionnreaver

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3 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

Removes the usefulness of reveal creatures aswell, but whether that's a good or bad thing is dependent on whether you like priests for hunting or not.

 

I really wish Fo had Reveal Creatures (or an equivalent)...

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5 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

Well, if the only problem scenario with LT is during rifts, why not just have active rifts prevent heal resistance on PvE servers?  Call it "rift interference", make it a buff obtained while walking in an active rift (5 min duration once out of rift).

I'm down to that 100%, rifts are times where people are expected to tank for long periods of time, unlike the cloth armour player fighting a dragon scenario for example that this heal resistance change is also targeted to impact.
If this change was applied, than I would have zero problem with the healing resistances, cause this is the only event where it would really hurt bad.

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I'm not really sure how this damage bonus works, it seems to be dealing more than what I'm expecting. For example, a sheep takes 40-44 damage from a medium maul, and with the damage bonus it takes 50-55, which is totally a 25% increase.
On a horse I dealt 49-51 with damage bonus, without I dealt 39-40. Is there something I'm missing with how damage on weapons works? cause it's totally dealing 25% more damage even though it should be 15%.
I hit a troll with the same weapon for 12.3-13.5 damage, and with the damage bonus I dealt 16-17 damage. A 12 damage hit would deal 13.8 with 15%, but instead it's doing like 17, and yes I am taking in to count head and hand hits. And thigh hits.
In the tummy I hit the troll for 13.3 damage twice, with the damage bonus I hit him for 17.4 damage. I would expect 13 damage to deal 14.95 or just ~15 but it's hitting much harder.
Is there something wrong with how I'm calculating how this damage bonus works or how it increases your damage? Cause I'm not really seeing what I'm expecting.

Also as a side note, Scorn of Libila doesn't properly spread healing across everyone, I healed myself and my pet and for some reason it healed 1 wound from me and 2 wounds from my troll buddy, and it always heals 3 wounds when no other enemies are struck and I myself have no wounds, I thought this was supposed to heal 3 wounds on all effected targets no matter what? or is the amount healed divided amongst all affected creatures/players? 
 

Edited by Wiolo
More Scorn of Libila rambling

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[02:14:48] You cast Scorn of Libila. No effect on unique.
[02:16:42] You cast Inferno on The venerable starving white dragon hatchling. No damage.
[02:17:02] You cast Rotting Gut on The venerable starving white dragon hatchling. No damage.
54 Power cast. [02:17:57] You try to smite The venerable starving white dragon hatchling but there seems to be no effect. No damage.
Spells deal no damage to uniques. As intended by the smite message.

Edited by Wiolo

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On 10/24/2018 at 4:18 PM, Sindusk said:
On 10/23/2018 at 5:18 PM, Dranana1 said:

I'm sorry but it seems like the Devs hate Fo since he is still pretty much useless, they took his alchemy and gave it to everyone instead of just him, took his double bonus from pottery and gave that away to Vaynor, and he still doesn’t have much but healing so limited in use except for healing at rifts (which I have yet to see a Fo priest at one) and yes he is good for ranching but now since animal transports are here that becomes useless since animals that are cared for are pretty much immortal and the horse industry is pretty much dead since the hell horse and unicorn glitches have been “fixed”. He is one of the only two priests (I think it was just two) that does not even have the mend spell, nor does he have a CoC, WoA, or BoTA but yes, he is good (?) for LT if that is all you want. If you are a Fo priest I am sorry if you don't agree and I hope you still have fun playing a Fo priest after this so called "improvement". I actually wanted to play a Fo priest as a main at one time but with all the "improvements" that he is going to get and the non-imping limit still in effect he just isn't worth playing a priest for.

Ouch, that's a pretty scathing review of Fo. Let me try and defend our nature-loving overlord.

  • Fo has Cure Light, Cure Medium, and Cure Serious. The new spell rolling has guaranteed that Fo will be the only deity among all of them to obtain all three of these healing spells. This makes him uniquely attuned to be the most favor-efficient healer.
  • Due to the QoL changes, you can now cast Cure spells directly on a target and it will auto-target the highest valid wound and heal it. No more opening someone's equipment, finding the wound, and casting the proper heal. Just point-click now.
  • Cleanse was a requested spell due that has uses for changing dirt to grass. You can now force grass to grow after completing a construction project and wanting your lawn back on PvE. There was also no easy way to remove Mycelium from PvP servers, which this spell now does.

With those points out of the way, I'm actually struggling to find other ways to defend Fo. So in essence, aside from the above, you're basically right. I will, however, mention that a spell or two is pending a rework that Fo has access to. Hopefully those reworks will make him more appealing. That said, what changes would you like to see that would bring Fo to the forefront?

 

Okay so here are my suggestions for Fo. I looked at what he got originally on the Wiki and what you have planned for him, I didn't really include the spells except for what you where going to give him with cleanse and what other spells I thought might work with him in the context that you were trying for I guess. My comments are in red

 

Below lists only the abilities and penalties of Fo.

Fo follower abilities and penalties

Follower abilities

  • Followers receive Fo domain bonuses while in Fo's domain. See domain of the gods for more details about this.
  • Followers with 20 faith and 10 favor receive a passive healing bonus (I think this should be changed to receives a 10% skill gain bonus to all skills or all nature based skills to include anything under the Nature, Alchemy, Healing, and maybe Tailoring and Carpentry. This may make Fo a more desirable god for priest to play without making him OP I guess. If anyone has a suggestion for this that would help as well since the healing bonus plays more of a factor in the PvP server than the PvE server unless one is an avid hunter)
  • Followers with 20 faith and 20 favor receive a 25% bonus to passive stamina regeneration.  
  • Followers with 20 faith and 20 favor receive 25% more sustenance from food. This does not affect nutrition. (I think this should be changed to a passive healing bonus unless the 25% can also be applied to nutrition)

Fo priest abilities and penalties

Priest abilities

  • Priests of Fo with 35 faith may pass through thorns unhindered. (this makes no sense on a PvE server, keep for PvP but get rid of for PvE. Haven't came up with an alternative for the PvE server so if anyone else has a suggestion that would be great other wise just get rid of it for PvE servers)
  • Priests of Fo with 60 faith and 30 favor are ignored by normal animals. They will also ignore your pet if you have one. This does not include hyenas or 'monsters' like dragonstrollslava fiendsgoblins or scorpions. (Why can’t this include Hyenas since they are animals, the others make sense. Instead why not make it spiders since they like scorpions are bugs and not animals)
  • Priests of Fo with 70 faith are inspired in their deity's favored terrain and have less stamina drain there. Fo gets the bonus on grassdirttrees, and fields. (tundra since it is naturally occurring and things can grow on it)
  • Priests of Fo receive double favor gains from sacrificing potterycloth, and food items. (the pottery one is gone so add alchemy stuff like healing covers and such, this will let people work on alchemy as a priest I guess)
  • Dig (VynoraLibila, and Magranon priests cannot do this). (now Vyn can, again taking away something only Fo could do. If that is the case then keep the mining restriction but give him woodcutting. But yes since digging is a big part of the game, I guess it makes sense to lift this restriction)
  • Alchemy, including the creation and use of healing covers. (I am sorry I think this should still be a Fo only thing since he is considered the healing god)
  • Can use bows. (yeah he gets a useless weapon or at least it is on a PvE server. Instead why not give him bonuses or something like that for using leather armor and a staff. Yes leather armor since cloth armor doesn’t do anything for protection honestly, this will at least make it to where people can go hunting with him and still survive)

 Generic Priest penalties

  • Cannot cut wood. (I can understand this but why not just make it anything under overaged that can’t be cut instead or look at the comments attached above to Dig and below at the end)
  • Cannot mine. (this got lifted but honestly some priest restrictions did make sense and for Fo this was one of them)
  • Cannot pave. (is this one still in effect, I didn’t find anything about it, but I may have over looked it)
  • Cannot steal (still good but not sure is really relevant on a PvE server)

·         Improve, continue or destroy/bash items, walls or structures, or repair structures. However they are permitted to create and plan items and structures. (the only one still in effect here is the Improve which honestly doesn’t make sense. If you removed this restriction along with the Continue and Bash/Repair it would make the priest more playable even with the other original priest restrictions, including the individual priest restrictions)

These are the old Fo abilities and restrictions from the Wiki, now on to the new stuff from the Priest overhaul that pertain to Fo.

New Spells

  • Cleanse [33 faith, 26 favor] (Fo) - Targets tiles. Converts a 3x3 area of Mycelium or Mycelium trees back to normal grass or normal tree. Also works on dirt, converting dirt tiles to grass. (okay on the PvP server this makes sense for the Mycelium back to normal items, but on a PvE server this sucks. How about it does the Mycelium stuff and if there is no Mycelium maybe change something to tundra instead of grass or something else. If anyone has a suggestion, please give one for this alternative)

Deity Passives

· Base gods now have extra combat passives at 70 faith. These do not apply to demigods, even if the demigod shares a template.

      o   Fo: +1 offensive and defensive CR while fighting on grass, dirt, fields, or trees. (tundra should be added to I think since it is naturally occurring and things do grow on it)

· Base deities have had passives adjusted:

      o   Fo: No longer has the passive granting double favor for sacrificing pottery items. (he should get it from alchemy stuff instead then)

Priest Restrictions

The following restrictions have been lifted from priests:

· Continuing structures, fences, and items (happy to see since it is a heavy aspect to the game)

· Repairing structures (is not used much on PvE servers except by those who are building off deed but very important on a PvP server)

· Alchemy (including healing covers) (still think it should be a Fo only thing or maybe just the Healing Cover aspect of it should be his)

· Bashing structures and fences (includes structure roof & floors) (again another heavy aspect to the game so happy with it as well)

· Fo and his template demigods have had the following priest restrictions lifted:

      o   Mining

      o   Prospecting

      o   Tunneling

      o   Analyse

(this mining restriction still makes sense for him honestly, instead of giving this one up make it to where he still has it, but he can do woodcutting to include cutting trees that are at least over-aged and up with no penalties so he can be a true forester and help the forests grow in a healthy way by getting rid of the “dead or dying” trees. You could also make him more of a carpenter god with bonuses to carpentry as well since the animal industry is pretty much dead, but I would probably keep him for farming since the cooking system did get an overhaul. Also, I think a WoA spell for Fo would help since it is one of the few that can be cast on horse shoes to help horse movement speeds and as everyone keeps saying he is a “rancher” god so this would make sense for him.)

 

Well hope you liked my suggestions and yes I don't care if people think lifting the imping restriction would be too much. If the other restrictions where still in place then I don't think lifting the continue, repair, and imping restrictions would have been to much since all of those have so much of an impact on game play especially for those that don't have 101 alts or have more of a solo play style overall but likes people around. I think if the game said you could only have 1 account and no alts unless you got another account per alt then people wouldn't have so much of a problem, but since this would get people harping even worse if implemented; then the imping isn't so bad especially if you want to make priest more of a desirable class for new people to play. As I said the only thing really that kept me from playing Fo as a main character even with all the negative that came with him (being the nonexistent enchant spells, dead animal industry, and shackled to an alter for rifts) was the imping and continue restrictions otherwise I would have been a Fo priest and damn all the other things that made him a sucky god for priests.

Edited by Dranana1

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10 minutes ago, Dranana1 said:

Priests of Fo with 60 faith and 30 favor are ignored by normal animals. They will also ignore your pet if you have one. This does not include hyenas or 'monsters' like dragonstrollslava fiendsgoblins or scorpions. (Why can’t this include Hyenas since they are animals, the others make sense. Instead why not make it spiders since they like scorpions are bugs and not animals)

 

Would much rather ignore spiders; they are a trash mob, and there are -so- many of them....

 

Also, I think Hyenas are a kingdom PvP mob (like Gorillas or Boars), so it wouldn't be right to ignore those.

 

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3 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

Would much rather ignore spiders; they are a trash mob, and there are -so- many of them....

 

Also, I think Hyenas are a kingdom PvP mob (like Gorillas or Boars), so it wouldn't be right to ignore those.

 

 

I guess I can understand on a PvP server about the hyenas, but if that is the case then make it so scorpions will ignored the priest and pet on a PvE server and things like dragons, trolls, lava fiends, and goblins are not included. This way the spiders won't have to be changed either.

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On 10/24/2018 at 10:48 PM, Sindusk said:

When I'm talking about abuse cases regarding LT, it's situations like that which I refer to.

 

I have never seen someone tanking a dragon and healing off of sheep, who does that lol.  (now I have used LT while kiting uniques around while sticking them into a pen, the damage can stack up when you have no one healing and I would hardly call that abuse)

 

Other abuse do you mean something like situations in pvp where players lt off there own guards/templars/each other?

 

Also can you please explain why priests still need limitations on harvest skills? You already plan to remove one restriction in this, why not all of them? Seriously think about all the players on freedom and only 2 actually play priests, that has to mean something.

Edited by JakeRivers

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21 minutes ago, JakeRivers said:

I have never seen someone tanking a dragon and healing off of sheep, who does that lol.  (now I have used LT while kiting uniques around while sticking them into a pen, the damage can stack up when you have no one healing and I would hardly call that abuse)

You guys need to stop ragging on this change, the LT resistance really builds up slowly. And it won't even be noticeable until you're at 30-40% resistance depending on your armour.
I fought a champion troll with LT and I gained about 1 1/2 minutes of resistance. That's less than a 20% decrease, and with the way LT heals single wounds, it really has no effect if your armour or DR is good.
Life transfer is not dead, give it a chance and test it out before you pound it down the second it gets proposed to being hooked up with the heal resistance system.
The only problem I had with LT at first was the fear of ruining people's ability to heal if I went healer. But hey, those wounds are gonna be healed anyways so it doesn't matter.

Also, I play priest main and manage quite well with the help of the market. Especially now that I will be able to build my own stuff, it makes sense to me.

Edited by Wiolo

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31 minutes ago, Wiolo said:

Also, I play priest main and manage quite well with the help of the market.

 

Why should you be forced to spend silver to play a priest?

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Wiolo said:

You guys need to stop ragging on this change, the LT resistance really builds up slowly. And it won't even be noticeable until you're at 30-40% resistance depending on your armour.

 

I don't see the need for the change in the first place, noticeable or not. I'm still wondering why it's so important: I feel like there's something not being said.

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