Retrograde

Priest overhaul testing

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5 hours ago, Sn00 said:

Remember when priests were unable to archer? Might have been a reason for that.

Agree, only the "battle priest should be able to" as it used to.

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If only there was a path you could join that would make direct damage spells useless.

 

if you want sotg or immunity its your choice.

 

dont go trying to change things to suite yourself you shouldn't be able to have all the things.

 

Sort your ###### out guys stop complaining about stuff and try and work with it.

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Hopefully feedback here is appropriated, considered and implemented but also in other threads. I had a thread HERE that was kingdom spammed then locked by moderators because it was too much for them to handle with the KvK drama. Fair enough but disappointing to me that some refuse to acknowledge and rather abuse the game mechanics. We have currently one kingdom trying to spin the narrative and defend a absurd meta. Sorry WU but game balance is important, I'll say that again It's extremely important! I know you guys think it's fine but it's bad for PvP as a whole. Checks need to be added, further DR resistance needs to be given to non-priests I gave plenty of examples in my other thread.

 

Soul strength should be calculated with defensive fighting to give some base damage reduction for spells. Shield spell blocking similar to arrows could also potentially be added at (20,50,70,100 DR) depending on the calculation as well. Good game play should be rewarded, playing well, reading combat log and being fully aware in PvP.

 

Archery should be the bane of "mages" new equipment could be added, make arrows easier to get. It's currently one of the most annoying systems for PvP.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Niki said:

Hopefully feedback here is appropriated, considered and implemented but also in other threads. I had a thread HERE that was kingdom spammed then locked by moderators because it was too much for them to handle with the KvK drama. Fair enough but disappointing to me that some refuse to acknowledge and rather abuse the game mechanics. We have currently one kingdom trying to spin the narrative and defend a absurd meta. Sorry WU but game balance is important, I'll say that again It's extremely important! I know you guys think it's fine but it's bad for PvP as a whole. Checks need to be added, further DR resistance needs to be given to non-priests I gave plenty of examples in my other thread.

 

Soul strength should be calculated with defensive fighting to give some base damage reduction for spells. Shield spell blocking similar to arrows could also potentially be added at (20,50,70,100 DR) depending on the calculation as well. Good game play should be rewarded, playing well, reading combat log and being fully aware in PvP.

 

Archery should be the bane of "mages" new equipment could be added, make arrows easier to get. It's currently one of the most annoying systems for PvP.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

With me recently coming back to chaos *cough* wild *cough* and seeing the pre priest change pvp vs what it is now it went from spam light of fo on both sides to more spells being used but 1 side having a slower time adapting then the other
Like in that other threat there where some good points made and some valid info shared
Soul strength point i see as valid where as blocking magic with a shield made out of metal? why? take the dnd spell fireball: i could see a fireball spell doing reduced damage due to being partly blown apart unless the power of the fireball is to strong and tears the shield apart
Now apply that to wurm shard of ice could shatter upon impacting on a shield and instead of doing a big damage wound do smaller damage wounds but less damage overall but not straight up blocking with a shield like it happens with arrows

What id like to see is people actually bothering to use path of power and hate for their bonuses not changes being made that make everyone stick to sotg for the rest of wurms existence
As it stands right now due to wurm being heavy on melee vs melee combat sotg is a must have due to how we all play but if spells become more common and we all get used to them being used more and learning after a few tries how to counter them we might end up seeing people love the spells more as there certainly are some fun builds out there now

Example
Group 1 go leather for faster movement speed and better counter to mauls but give up defensive stats
Group 2 uses acid salve to counter
Group 1 gets acid resistance but still takes more damage so is forced to either give up leather or deal with it and tries to play more ranged more coordinated
Group 2 can use this advantage of group 1 having to deal with a big change to hopefully get some more kills out of it

The scenario's go on and on but what i have seen is wurm go from a straight up barbarian brawl with a bunch of healers and damage dealers to a more party based class based system and such a chance will make people be pissed and want to revert back to the old ways and find ways to undo new things instead of adapt

But like i talked about with a bunch of friends when we did testing it really does scream like protective jewelry(for non priests) and offensive jewelry(for priests) and different play styles are a must to be able to take advantage of these changes eg salves+jewelry+different enchants compared to the old meta with new weapon metals and such could lead to some interesting changes and they should be embraced instead of nerved into uselessness

From the video's i saw there where maybe 2-3 priests on both sides each actually casting in most of the video's if even at all and that was mainly during the start of them


Next to pvp related stuff id like to mention the healing resist even in pve situations with lt and a healing spell priest can lead to a multi minute long resistance when fighting say 2-3 trolls in rapid succession and for newer accounts/weaker priests that can lead to some more dangerous hunting then before which leaves me being more cautious on that account vs before the update of "hey im fo il just heal myself after every troll if need be" to "###### i gotta run here is yet a other troll and my healing resist is still to high and still to low health" its more fun to hunt now with that account

 

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Maybe make it so that when casting you unequip your shield and weapon meaning you are open for archery and hits. Would make casting time issue and this archery vs magic would be a new thing as you wont block arrows while casting. This way as there is no way to block magic you leave yourself open for archery. After cast you reequip automatically. Bsically disable shield and sword. Kinda make sense.

Edited by Wulfgarr

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I'm still not understanding how this benefits one kingdom and not the other.  Mechanics like MR CR buff on sand are examples of one sided buffs.  Nothing stops both kingdoms from using the same battle tactics to achieve victory.

 

Someone (Niki, TC) explain how you are unable to replicate the same strategy.  I saw CHAMPIONS wearing leather trying to fight us yesterday....so what seems to be the disconnect?  You don't have statuettes?  Maybe TC has a gem shortage?

 

Seriously, where's the strategic disparity between the two kingdoms?  

 

@ mods, this isnt kvk trash talk, I'm being genuine here.

 

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1 hour ago, Wargasm said:

I'm still not understanding how this benefits one kingdom and not the other.  Mechanics like MR CR buff on sand are examples of one sided buffs.  Nothing stops both kingdoms from using the same battle tactics to achieve victory.

 

Someone (Niki, TC) explain how you are unable to replicate the same strategy.  I saw CHAMPIONS wearing leather trying to fight us yesterday....so what seems to be the disconnect?  You don't have statuettes?  Maybe TC has a gem shortage?

 

Seriously, where's the strategic disparity between the two kingdoms?  

 

@ mods, this isnt kvk trash talk, I'm being genuine here.

 

That's really not the point Wargasm... Both kingdoms could have 20 priests vs 20 priests and I would still be posting about the imbalances of stuff like inferno's range/damage and not being able to block spell damage. I'm not the type of person to abuse obvious broken mechanics for gain.

 

Light of Fo takes 15 seconds to cast, I think that's excessively long. It would be more reasonable to take it back down to 10 seconds. It's damn tricky even if you pre-cast LoF and avoid a tangleweave.

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18 minutes ago, Niki said:

I'm not the type of person to abuse obvious broken mechanics for gain.

 

Bringing a knife to a gun fight doesn't mean guns need to be nerfed.... it means you should have brought a gun.  If you have moral issues with using guns, then PvP is not for you.

 

24 minutes ago, Niki said:

I would still be posting about the imbalances of stuff like inferno's range/damage and not being able to block spell damage.

 

There are plenty of ways to "block" spell damage...

1.  You are a priest.  This gives you two additional ways to negate the damage of an incoming nuke to the face.  

      a. You have a hard counter interrupt on a 3 second cast called tangle weave.  It has an even longer range than the aforementioned inferno. 

      b. *edit*  You mentioned pre-casting in your post, that was what was going here.

 

2.  MOVE!!!   If Inferno, or whatever spell... has a 10 tile range, depending on your current distance to the target you can do two things...

     a.  Move in on them and try to hit/shieldbash/kill them, which might make them back up, thus interrupting their cast.

     b.  Move AWAY from them.  If I'm 9 tiles from you and I start to cast a spell on you, all you have to do is back up 1 tile and I should stop casting automatically.  If you're encumbered, or you are wearing plate, or you are stunned/hurting because 5-6 people (even non priests) are hitting you with melee attacks.... that's your problem, not the spell itself.

 

3.  *Removed* - Sorry, this one I don't want to share.

 

Bottom line - the mechanics work fine.  There are measures you can take to prevent them, with the appropriate awareness on the battlefield.

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7 hours ago, Niki said:

disappointing to me that some refuse to acknowledge and rather abuse the game mechanics

 

its called having different or conflicting opinions, if you read the posts i answered with in your "kingdom spammed" thread, you would realize...

dont try to force other people to think your way, all i am asking :)

Edited by Quicktor

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On 2/8/2019 at 4:06 PM, Wargasm said:

Bottom line - the mechanics work fine.  There are measures you can take to prevent them, with the appropriate awareness on the battlefield.

This is the thing. Right here. Paying attention is hard. Its easier to just autoattack someone else with godmode accounts, moon metal weapons, scale gear, tomes and own the battlefield. Skill is immaterial.

 

Make people pay attention and they get wrecked. I suppose thats why they feel this system is flawed.

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So after the discussion here and the other thread, is there an actual issue with dodging spell nukes or is it just lack of time getting used to the new stuff (or is it split based on kingdom)?

 

I'm not against adding another form of defense against spell damage beyond the current jewelry enchants, but I think it makes sense that getting extra bonuses against that should come with some sort of downside to avoid it becoming a "this is 100% the best setup" type deal. Not a fan of the idea of having shields just outright block all spell damage or anything like that, since that would just throw priests back into irrelevance in fights.

 

One thought I had is allowing the defensive elemental enchants to be cast on wooden shields that then give you a ~20% chance to block spell damage of that type (instead of outright reducing that damage by a % like the current jewelry enchants do). Downside in this case is obviously having to use a wooden shield, and even then only getting the chance to block one type of elemental spell damage.

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27 minutes ago, Budda said:

So after the discussion here and the other thread, is there an actual issue with dodging spell nukes or is it just lack of time getting used to the new stuff (or is it split based on kingdom)?

 

I'm not against adding another form of defense against spell damage beyond the current jewelry enchants, but I think it makes sense that getting extra bonuses against that should come with some sort of downside to avoid it becoming a "this is 100% the best setup" type deal. Not a fan of the idea of having shields just outright block all spell damage or anything like that, since that would just throw priests back into irrelevance in fights.

 

One thought I had is allowing the defensive elemental enchants to be cast on wooden shields that then give you a ~20% chance to block spell damage of that type (instead of outright reducing that damage by a % like the current jewelry enchants do). Downside in this case is obviously having to use a wooden shield, and even then only getting the chance to block one type of elemental spell damage.

 

we can supply the last few fights worth of pvp videos, where its 70% melee and 30% spells

 

if you didn't get to read the whole thread from the other day, it seriously went like this

priests op vs non priests pls nerf > ????

spells op pls nerf > ???

leather op pls nerf> ???

spells op let shields block 100% > ??

shield bash should be 100% to interrupt > ???

range of offensive spells probably too far > this one i agree with, could use 2-3 tile drop on them

but basically, its just them throwing as many possible suggestions to get nerfs that will stick

 

the losing kingdom who isn't used to losing this badly wants to throw the biggest fit possible to get anything swinging their way

they went mostly healing priests using /transfer and are now suffering the consequences of their actions and are trying to get damage spells nerfed into the ground. 

 

if ANYMORE nerfs, and I mean anything gets changed more to priests at this point, im requesting a new /transfer option, because now you're screwing up the strategies that both kingdom picked (one went like 90% healing 10% damage priests) and the other went the other direction and it was right based on the patch notes and testing done post-changes

 

you've already nerfed my damage spells, if you nerf it more I demand a free faith swap, as will the rest of my kingdom

 

imo, its lack of time getting used to it. Its been said how many times? if you're being casted on, tangleweave or back away lol

Edited by platinumteef

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The only thing I believe should be done is giving non priests a chance to reliably stop spells being cast. This can be accomplished by fixing the way shield bashing skills up, as in not requiring one to spend a gorillion of hours shield bashing an out of kingdom alt account on a vpn computer to be able to achieve a semblance of usefulness.

 

If shield bashing gets fixed to be relatively more reliable, it will force priests to take more of backline row when skilled enemies are present. It would reward practice, dedication and skilled players than simply making it that rng decides a spell outcome. 

 

Edit: It also makes it so everyone gets the ability to do it, instead of only those with the right spell access.

Edited by Angelklaine

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1 minute ago, Angelklaine said:

The only thing I believe should be done is giving non priests a chance to reliably stop spells being cast. This can be accomplished by fixing the way shield bashing skills up, as in not requiring one to spend a gorillion of hours shield bashing an out of kingdom alt account on a vpn computer to be able to achieve a semblance of usefulness.

 

If shield bashing gets fixed to be relatively more reliable, it will force priests to take more of backline row when skilled enemies are present. It would reward practice, dedication and skilled players than simply making it that rng decides a spell outcome. 

 

you'd have to be careful tho, i agree shield bashing could be a bit more reliable but if you dont watch out rakki and his 100 shieldbashing and 94 body control will put literally every account into sprawling @Rakki

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You can always make it so even if it misses the sprawling hit, there is a chance to interrupt a spell. After all in order to prevent it putting you into your butt, you need to dodge the attack, thus sacrificing your spell in the process. 

 

The reason why I like this option so much is because it doesnt discriminate: the spell can be a heal or a buff or a damage spell and it doesnt matter, you loose it. Both big groups or solo pvpers can use it.  Both priests and non priests can use it. Everyone benefits, thus making it well balanced. Give it a % chance to interrupt a cast, and you're golden.

Edited by Angelklaine

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47 minutes ago, Budda said:

One thought I had is allowing the defensive elemental enchants to be cast on wooden shields that then give you a ~20% chance to block spell damage of that type (instead of outright reducing that damage by a % like the current jewelry enchants do). Downside in this case is obviously having to use a wooden shield, and even then only getting the chance to block one type of elemental spell damage.

 

The biggest problem here is you're injecting more RNG into the already RNG-ridden combat system. This creates a scenario where people will be gambling life and gear over a dice roll. This is further compounded by questions of what happens when blocked. Does it still apply resistance? If not, what prevents people from just casting again? The new resistance system was designed specifically because of this problem. The old resistances were a pass/fail where you would dice roll a 50/50 to determine whether or not your spell would work.

 

Requiring it to be a wooden shield is an artificial limitation. Encouraging players to use a different arsenal is one thing, but forcing them to use it will just result in frustration. If you want to apply an enchant to shields, do it for all shields. At that point, you can make the enchant less effective on a metal shield to some degree, just be careful to make it something they can live with.

 

Also, others (from both kingdoms) have mentioned shield bashing. Currently, casting a spell reduces your CR by 50% while you're channeling the action. This CR reduction does nothing for the difficulty to interrupt a player getting shield bashed. Translating the 50% CR penalty and making it also apply a 50% difficulty reduction for shield bashing (and furthermore interruption from shield bashing) makes sense. This also gives non-priests a reliable way to interrupt spells assuming they have competent shield bashing skill and the opponent doesn't have insane body control.

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26 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

Requiring it to be a wooden shield is an artificial limitation. Encouraging players to use a different arsenal is one thing, but forcing them to use it will just result in frustration. If you want to apply an enchant to shields, do it for all shields. At that point, you can make the enchant less effective on a metal shield to some degree, just be careful to make it something they can live with.

 

Just keep in mind, there is already a benefit to using metal shields vs wooden shields (shield bashing), unless it was recently taken out.

Edited by Xallo

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21 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

 

The biggest problem here is you're injecting more RNG into the already RNG-ridden combat system. This creates a scenario where people will be gambling life and gear over a dice roll. This is further compounded by questions of what happens when blocked. Does it still apply resistance? If not, what prevents people from just casting again? The new resistance system was designed specifically because of this problem. The old resistances were a pass/fail where you would dice roll a 50/50 to determine whether or not your spell would work.

 

Requiring it to be a wooden shield is an artificial limitation. Encouraging players to use a different arsenal is one thing, but forcing them to use it will just result in frustration. If you want to apply an enchant to shields, do it for all shields. At that point, you can make the enchant less effective on a metal shield to some degree, just be careful to make it something they can live with.

 

Also, others (from both kingdoms) have mentioned shield bashing. Currently, casting a spell reduces your CR by 50% while you're channeling the action. This CR reduction does nothing for the difficulty to interrupt a player getting shield bashed. Translating the 50% CR penalty and making it also apply a 50% difficulty reduction for shield bashing (and furthermore interruption from shield bashing) makes sense. This also gives non-priests a reliable way to interrupt spells assuming they have competent shield bashing skill and the opponent doesn't have insane body control.

You don't pvp on WO chaos Sindusk so you really don't understand. Devs need to actually play the game instead of backseat implementation. You quit being a dev and sold your account. You left us with a unbalanced system. It's a problem.

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I mean, yeah its basically all of TC pushing to fix stuff that's not really broken or overused. Based on footage from recent fights when everyone is dying from axes, not spells (am i missing something?), most WU are trying to say there is not imbalance...

 

Agree tho shieldbashing could be a potential tweak to interrupt casting. I dont think chances to block a spell that already has a chance to fail/power roll is the right answer. 

 

I think Mondain/platinumbeef described the situation pretty accurately in his above post.

 

And yes, if it gets changed much more I want /transfers again because of the points mentioned about us choosing based on originally proposed mechanics.

Edited by Deathangel

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1 hour ago, platinumteef said:

 

we can supply the last few fights worth of pvp videos, where its 70% melee and 30% spells

 

if you didn't get to read the whole thread from the other day, it seriously went like this

priests op vs non priests pls nerf > ????

spells op pls nerf > ???

leather op pls nerf> ???

spells op let shields block 100% > ??

shield bash should be 100% to interrupt > ???

range of offensive spells probably too far > this one i agree with, could use 2-3 tile drop on them

but basically, its just them throwing as many possible suggestions to get nerfs that will stick

 

the losing kingdom who isn't used to losing this badly wants to throw the biggest fit possible to get anything swinging their way

they went mostly healing priests using /transfer and are now suffering the consequences of their actions and are trying to get damage spells nerfed into the ground. 

 

if ANYMORE nerfs, and I mean anything gets changed more to priests at this point, im requesting a new /transfer option, because now you're screwing up the strategies that both kingdom picked (one went like 90% healing 10% damage priests) and the other went the other direction and it was right based on the patch notes and testing done post-changes

 

you've already nerfed my damage spells, if you nerf it more I demand a free faith swap, as will the rest of my kingdom

 

imo, its lack of time getting used to it. Its been said how many times? if you're being casted on, tangleweave or back away lol

It's cute you see OP systems and abuse them. People like you are the biggest issue in gaming, it makes the developers job extremely hard. PvP is totally messed up atm it needs balancing.

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Just now, Niki said:

It's cute you see OP systems and abuse them. People like you are the biggest issue in gaming, it makes the developers job extremely hard. PvP is totally messed up atm it needs balancing.

 

like I said, we can provide footage from the last 3 tc wipes

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19 minutes ago, Niki said:

It's cute you see OP systems and abuse them. People like you are the biggest issue in gaming, it makes the developers job extremely hard. PvP is totally messed up atm it needs balancing.

Its cute that you think people cant have dissenting opinions to yours. Stick to providing valid arguments instead of stomping your foot and crying op and accusing other players providing constructive criticism of being abusive. This is the testing forums. Take your trolling elsewhere please.

 

@BuddaSindusk brings up a good point. You can make priests more succeptible to shield bashing and fix this whole issue in a fair and impartial way. Both healing and damage priests get affected and the meta doesnt slide in favor of either, plus it has the bonus of giving non priests a fair chance. Stacking resistance on top of resistance on top of resistance will simply make targetted spells useless instead of your intended purpose, plus will slide the meta toward healers who are unaffected. I can't cast on my shield to stop priests from healing their team mates, but they can cast their shields to prevent my spells from affecting them. Thats lopsided af.

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