Retrograde

Priest overhaul testing

Recommended Posts

In terms of oakshell, there is some ground for improvement.

 

Previously, I only made use of oakshell on either my horse, or people looking to recover their bodies at rifts.  Now I wouldn't cast it on my horse due to the slowdown, and that renders it only useful during body recovery in rifts.

 

On the PvE side of things, the ability for oakshell to overlay armour is no great balance breaker, and this is what I'd like to see, as it is unlikely to be used overly much otherwise.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the CR bonus to only template gods, for a pvp priest it makes Fo or Mag the obvious choices. One issue with this is the current Champion restrictions. Only 1 champ of each god per kingdom. Perhaps this can be removed now, it was changed originally to remove the previous restriction which was Only 3 champs of 1 god across all kingdoms. Seems like this can just be removed or perhaps if you are a champion you get the template CR bonus for a non template god.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 6:00 PM, Sindusk said:

Nahjo now has the meat & alchemy affinity.

Could you extend this to fish also ?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If still looking at this, please add that Fo priests should not be stung by bees (similar to how thorns do not hurt them) and neither should wild mobs run from them (deer, chickens, bison, cattle, sheep...)

 

It would also be cool if they could have two pets, one of which could be placed on automatic lead, although this is probably not viable for PvP.

Edited by Fairyshine

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I noticed Libila doesn't have strongwall on the PvE server, is this intended?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would it be possible to do a little change to Dark Messenger?

At the moment if you're in a WL kingdom on Chaos and are a Tosiek priest you are able to cast Dark Messenger, but you aren't able to even use the mailbox you just enchanted. Could the spell either be replaced with Courier, or allow BL priests/everyone to use Dark Messenger mailboxes?

[16:02:41] The entities inside refuse to help you.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/22/2018 at 9:16 AM, Sindusk said:
  • Dark Messenger can now be used by players in WL kingdoms (including Freedom).

 

 

3 hours ago, boilingfort said:

Would it be possible to do a little change to Dark Messenger?

At the moment if you're in a WL kingdom on Chaos and are a Tosiek priest you are able to cast Dark Messenger, but you aren't able to even use the mailbox you just enchanted. Could the spell either be replaced with Courier, or allow BL priests/everyone to use Dark Messenger mailboxes?

[16:02:41] The entities inside refuse to help you.

 

Yep, already in the rework.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be good to have clarification about the effects of high ql altars - and statuettes - have on casting

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Baloo said:

It would be good to have clarification about the effects of high ql altars - and statuettes - have on casting

 

Fath bonus + cast power, rest does nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sn00 said:

 

Fath bonus + cast power, rest does nothing.

 

Yep. So a high QL altar can help with keeping your casting bonus high, but otherwise won't matter, and statuette QL has never done anything.

 

I believe altar QL and rarity does help improve the chances of getting an effect when praying, though, and rarity adds a tiny bit to Faith gained through sermons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does the spell disintegrate only works for mag priest on pve like now or have other priests also acces to in on pve after the update?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't find any mention of it being ask so here goes

Is there any improvement being made on the totally random cast power even with high Channeling? I find it ridiculous that a 90 channeling priest having a hard time to cast 80+ power casts consistently

sometimes it takes me 10 casts to improve on a 40 or 50 str cast.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's been a bit since I last posted here, as I've been working on some of the projects unrelated to the priest rework recently. However, I've spent some time and made some quick changes to address some of the current issues/bugs with the current build. As of right now, the priest rework is considered content-complete and no further mechanics changes are planned. Fixes for bugs and exploits are obviously still on the table.

  • Purge no longer dispels karma spell effects.
  • Befriend monster passive no longer works for rift monsters or legendary creatures.
  • Infection wounds no longer tick every minute against legendary creatures.
  • Scorn of Libila no longer heals neutral creatures that are naturally aggressive. This resolves an issue with it healing creatures that are rendered neutral due to the befriend monster & befriend creature passives.
  • Containers can now be enchanted and mended. This applies to pottery items, barrels, and similar objects that could previously not be cast on.
  • Wrath of Magranon no longer fails to damage fences on the east and southern tip of its area of effect.
  • Ritual of the Sun now properly repairs all fences and structures within Magranon & demigod faith zones.

 

That aside, let's dive into some responses for the recent comments.

 

On 12/1/2018 at 1:11 PM, Roccandil said:

I really hate seeing the phrase "damaging to the economy".... :(

 

Asking the players of a long-term game like Wurm to risk massive amounts of time and effort on RNG is, in my perspective, abusive and disrespectful. I'm not blaming you for your point of view, but I consider it penny-wise and pound-foolish.

 

If it were my game, all critical RNG would only be for success, not failure (like rarity). If the game needs item/enchant sinks, make them fun, not ragequit-inducing.

 

In short, lack of players is -far- more damaging to the community and economy than players actually having fun enchanting.

Wurm is very heavy on RNG as it stands. Every action you take is dictated by some form of RNG, swayed by the items and skills you use. In the end, it still comes down to a roll of the dice. The "critical success" you speak of is done through raw sample size. Players cast over and over on items in order to achieve the higher value enchants. If the proposed ability to move enchants from item to item were implemented, it bypasses that sample size restriction on a single item and instead allows that sample size to be spread across all items and all players in the entire game. Instead of having a 104 enchant on a supreme be amazing, you'd instead compare a 104 cast on a supreme and a 104 cast on a normal item and consider them equal... because the normal item cast can be transferred to the supreme.

 

To re-iterate, I've already done this in Wurm Unlimited. It ended up with players obtaining super-items that were massively out of control.

 

99e108d33a702bc34735874f3d11ca65.png

 

Granted, I compounded that failure by uncapping enchant power and letting players advance excessively... but still. Once players have the best items, they no longer have anything to strive for. Goals are what keep players interested in playing Wurm. The ability to move enchants makes goals easier to achieve. While that feels good for the player, it's unhealthy for the game. This is a clash of good game design versus player desire.

 

On 12/1/2018 at 6:57 PM, Etherdrifter said:

So...  What exactly is happening on the Fo front here?

Sadly most of the work that was supposed to be done with Fo ended up not working out as intended. There were spells planned to be reworked that we just couldn't manage to do in a valid way, because the ideas were too ambitious. This leaves Fo in an unfortunate state where we were planning to give him something extra in order to bring him up to par with the other deities, but ends up falling short. Right now, he'll be remaining in the state that he's in. At the end of the day, he's the only god who has the full kit of healing spells, combined with Oakshell, Genesis, Life Transfer, and Venom. Because he's also a template god, he gets the special CR bonus for being on his terrain, which can be pretty potent. Aside from that, there's really not much else to say. I'm sure players will use him, but he'll be the niche pick of the group.

 

On 12/3/2018 at 12:44 PM, Threap said:

With the CR bonus to only template gods, for a pvp priest it makes Fo or Mag the obvious choices. One issue with this is the current Champion restrictions. Only 1 champ of each god per kingdom. Perhaps this can be removed now, it was changed originally to remove the previous restriction which was Only 3 champs of 1 god across all kingdoms. Seems like this can just be removed or perhaps if you are a champion you get the template CR bonus for a non template god.

This is intentionally remaining. Diversity is a good thing, and it will keep kingdom templates relevant. Players who are JK template can have a Vynora and Fo champion, then require a demigod for their third champion. Vynora and Fo are the most non-combatant template gods, so this seems a good balance whereas BL will have a "strong" Libila champion and MR will have a "strong" Magranon champion. Again, this isn't set in stone, so if it doesn't work out as intended, it can always be adjusted in the future.

 

On 12/3/2018 at 1:11 PM, Faldor said:

Could you extend this to fish also ?

Fish are considered meat, so this is already functioning.

 

On 12/3/2018 at 1:45 PM, Fairyshine said:

If still looking at this, please add that Fo priests should not be stung by bees (similar to how thorns do not hurt them) and neither should wild mobs run from them (deer, chickens, bison, cattle, sheep...)

 

It would also be cool if they could have two pets, one of which could be placed on automatic lead, although this is probably not viable for PvP.

Not being stung by bees seems like a good idea, but it'd require a new passive - of which Fo already has a very large amount. Followers of Fo already have 3 unique passives at 20 faith. Overloading Fo with passives is probably not the best way to fix him.

 

In regards to the pets, that would be extremely difficult to achieve with the current pet system. There would need to be a rework of how pet mechanics worked before that type of idea could be attempted.

 

On 12/3/2018 at 2:44 PM, Figs said:

I noticed Libila doesn't have strongwall on the PvE server, is this intended?

Yes. Libila does not obtain Strongwall on PvE, but will retain it for PvP servers.

 

On 12/5/2018 at 1:40 PM, Faldor said:

Does the spell disintegrate only works for mag priest on pve like now or have other priests also acces to in on pve after the update?

Other priests will have access to Disintegrate on PvE after the update. Most of the deities roll either Strongwall or Disintegrate on PvE. I can't recall off the top of my head what deities have specifically on PvE, as the screenshots for their lists were taken on Baphomet (a PvP test server). A new list would need to be made for the PvE spell lists to include which deities have Disintegrate or Strongwall.

 

On 12/6/2018 at 3:44 PM, KillerSpike said:

Can't find any mention of it being ask so here goes

Is there any improvement being made on the totally random cast power even with high Channeling? I find it ridiculous that a 90 channeling priest having a hard time to cast 80+ power casts consistently

sometimes it takes me 10 casts to improve on a 40 or 50 str cast.

No. This mechanic follows the same rules that govern all actions in the game. Whether it's improving an item, farming a field, or mining iron, you're always rolling -100 to 100, with a slide based on many factors. Channeling is no exception, but the actual power of the actions are more pronounced since they're entirely visible to the player instead of being hidden under other gameplay layers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

Wurm is very heavy on RNG as it stands. Every action you take is dictated by some form of RNG, swayed by the items and skills you use. In the end, it still comes down to a roll of the dice. The "critical success" you speak of is done through raw sample size. Players cast over and over on items in order to achieve the higher value enchants. If the proposed ability to move enchants from item to item were implemented, it bypasses that sample size restriction on a single item and instead allows that sample size to be spread across all items and all players in the entire game. Instead of having a 104 enchant on a supreme be amazing, you'd instead compare a 104 cast on a supreme and a 104 cast on a normal item and consider them equal... because the normal item cast can be transferred to the supreme.

 

I'm not too worried about transference; that's just a potential workaround to the limitations of Dispel and the abuse by the game against players, known as shattering.

 

Quote

 

To re-iterate, I've already done this in Wurm Unlimited. It ended up with players obtaining super-items that were massively out of control.

 

99e108d33a702bc34735874f3d11ca65.png

 

Granted, I compounded that failure by uncapping enchant power and letting players advance excessively... but still. Once players have the best items, they no longer have anything to strive for. Goals are what keep players interested in playing Wurm. The ability to move enchants makes goals easier to achieve. While that feels good for the player, it's unhealthy for the game. This is a clash of good game design versus player desire.

 

In my view Wurm isn't about getting the best items, its about gaining the capability to do massive, long-term projects.

 

The reliance on heavy RNG is bad game design, and Wurm succeeds for me despite it, not because of it. I know this because I was nearly done with Wurm before Epic skillgain update, due to the dawning realization of the RNG involved in the skillgrind.

 

The skillgain update, however, effectively removed RNG from skillgain on Epic, and Wurm was just able to capture me in its orbit, so to speak. :) Given that I was on the edge of quitting due to the RNG, I suspect there is a significant player base Wurm could capture if it would relinquish the lazy paradigm of heavy RNG.

 

If it were my game, I'd remove the heavy RNG, and design around opportunity cost and diminishing returns. You want level 104 enchants on something? You're going to have spend an incredible amount of time and resources on enchanting, and you won't be able to spend that time or resources doing anything else, -but-, the item will never shatter and waste the time you've spent on it, and each cast is guaranteed to increase power a little, based on your skill (even if it's only .00001 power).

 

That plays to the strength of Wurm: counting the cost of some huge project up front, and deciding if it's worth attempting. Punishing, frustrating RNG simply isn't needed to have functioning, difficult goals.

Edited by Roccandil

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

Sadly most of the work that was supposed to be done with Fo ended up not working out as intended. There were spells planned to be reworked that we just couldn't manage to do in a valid way, because the ideas were too ambitious. This leaves Fo in an unfortunate state where we were planning to give him something extra in order to bring him up to par with the other deities, but ends up falling short. Right now, he'll be remaining in the state that he's in. At the end of the day, he's the only god who has the full kit of healing spells, combined with Oakshell, Genesis, Life Transfer, and Venom. Because he's also a template god, he gets the special CR bonus for being on his terrain, which can be pretty potent. Aside from that, there's really not much else to say. I'm sure players will use him, but he'll be the niche pick of the group.

 

Fo has always been the PvE "niche pick", ever since Nahjo was added in.  Overall, a Fo priest is less desirable now than before the update which isn't really a good thing.  Then again, a priest is a more playable character, so there is that.


Would I prem Ether up again at the moment?  No.  Would I stick around as a free player and wait for the upcoming "Fo Buff Update"?  Probably yes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

Players who are JK template can have a Vynora and Fo champion, then require a demigod for their third champion.

 

Is this Chaos, or a template kingdom thing? Standard JK on Epic has recently had a Mag champ. (I'm pretty sure we also had 4+ champs at once, at least according to Niarja, but I don't know how to prove that.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

Yes. Libila does not obtain Strongwall on PvE, but will retain it for PvP servers.

Why? This is really dissapointing i must say and it's true slap in the face to my joy of finaly playing Lib on Freedom

Can this be reconsidered?

Edited by kochinac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

You want level 104 enchants on something? You're going to have spend an incredible amount of time and resources on enchanting, and you won't be able to spend that time or resources doing anything else, -but-, the item will never shatter and waste the time you've spent on it

This

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sindusk said:

Not being stung by bees seems like a good idea, but it'd require a new passive - of which Fo already has a very large amount.

 

Why not simply tie it to the "animal friendliness" passive? Bees are animals, after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Sindusk said:

This is intentionally remaining. Diversity is a good thing, and it will keep kingdom templates relevant. Players who are JK template can have a Vynora and Fo champion, then require a demigod for their third champion. Vynora and Fo are the most non-combatant template gods, so this seems a good balance whereas BL will have a "strong" Libila champion and MR will have a "strong" Magranon champion. Again, this isn't set in stone, so if it doesn't work out as intended, it can always be adjusted in the future.

 Possible champs is based on white or black light. Mr and jk template can have both fo and mag champs but not two of the same god. Which means white light pmks will have 1 mag and 1 fo and then 1 sub optimal champ, black light get screwed more as they can only have 1 champ with cr bonus lib. This restriction was put in place because sme was so overpowered with that fixed I think it makes sense to remove the restriction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can hardly wait to escape the shackles of Vynora.  Magranon can interact with the world by reinforcing cave walls, Fo can heal people and animals, and Vynora can watch.  The CR bonus for Vynora is useless outside of killing the odd shark.  I do not expect any changes to Vynora, and at this point do not care that she will be an archaeology item.  All I want is to change religion so come on guys let's get on with the show.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A new question that I haven't seen asked before: How will becoming a priest actually work now? In the old days when religions were fighting it made sense to only allow WL priests to become priests at the WL altar and the same for BL priests at the BL altar. Now that kingdoms are at war (rather than religions) and priests are no longer tied to the associated kingdoms and can be part of any kingdom without fear of the guards, will all priests be available from the WL and BL altars? Possibly only the PG demi-gods with the template gods tied to the template altars? Will we be able to use existing priests to make new priests like currently on Freedom? On Epic its not really a problem due to population at the current time, but hopefully in the future there will be a higher population.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Will people who are followers at the time of the update get a free swap too or is it just priests?

 

Also, nolocate says "your kingdom" how does that work on pve?

Edited by Oblivionnreaver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, kochinac said:

I'm still furious about Lib not having strongwall on pve!

 

Yeah, I don't get the reasoning behind that. What's wrong with having strongwall on PvE?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now