ESC to close windows

[Zuelatak 235]

Whoops missed this message.

On 5/3/2022 at 10:37 AM, DaletheGood said:

In over 30 yrs of working with multiple software in a variety of companies, I can tell you for a fact that ESC does not close a window.

For most software I can agree, but we're talking about videogames not software. And I can tell you that in my 20 years of gaming playing over 100's of games Esc does indeed close windows.

On 5/3/2022 at 10:37 AM, DaletheGood said:

You want to force everyone to play to your style.

What? No. I want to force everyone to have a keybinding rather than not having one. My style has nothing to do with that as I adapted to a system with no keybinds, but I think it would beneficial for New Players to adapt to a system with keybinds. And those keybinds aren't going to be decided by me they would be decided by either the devs or perhaps we allow for people to submit their keybind schemes and vote for them.

On 5/3/2022 at 10:37 AM, DaletheGood said:

I don't believe there's enough keys on the keyboard to cover every action in the game

Most certainly not, but there are plenty of unused keys and unused modifiers that could cover a large amount of important actions in the game. I think it would be best for the game to use every key plus at least one modifier although I don't see the harm in using all of them as you mentioned. "A, Shift-A, Ctrl-A, Alt-A"

 

On 5/3/2022 at 10:37 AM, DaletheGood said:

In fact I'll point you to a perfect spot to suggest that, it's a post called "Missing Keybinds" and it's pinned to the top of the Suggestions forum

Certainly a good point. I'll throw the ideas in there, but I'm not looking for them to just be added I want them assigned to something.

 

On 5/3/2022 at 10:37 AM, DaletheGood said:

But stop making players have to play your style by having default buttons for everything already set up. I would think that being able to customize your own keybinds without having to work around Zueletak's weird system would be much preferable.

Again it's not my play style nor would it prevent you from making your own keybinds. 

Scenario A (Current System): You want a keybind for chopping so you set it to C for chop.

Scenario B (You like Proposed System): You go to chop a tree and see that it's bound to C, you are fine with that, and from then on hit C whenever you want to chop a tree.
Scenario C (Don't like Proposed System): You go to chop a tree and see that it's bound to Alt+P, you think that's a dumb key, so you rebind it to C for chop.

 

Scenario A and C result in the same outcome and thus such I don't see why it would be any worse to have a keybind already set than to not have one. My proposed solution allows for new Scenario B to happen where a player doesn't need to think about creating an entire keybinding scheme cause like you set there are a lot of ###### actions in this game. Instead, it provides them with a proposed keybinding that maybe the majority of the community agreed upon. Picture it like you want a keybinding and I say "How about C. Everyone uses C" you then get to decide if you want to follow everyone (the default) or create your own way of playing. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Zuelatak

[DaletheGood 1,073]

You're so intent on having the last word Zueletak. Fine. I'm done arguing with you, on this anyway. You've gone from ESC to close windows to setting C for chop. I object to the original idea. End of my participation in this discussion.

[Zuelatak 235]

10 hours ago, DaletheGood said:

You're so intent on having the last word Zueletak. Fine. I'm done arguing with you, on this anyway.

I'm intent in having a conversation? If you see this as an argument then no wonder you're getting upset. Of course I'm going to respond to everything you say just as you're doing the same to me? This conversation after all isn't even about you, so if you're done talking I'm still going to be talking to other people. 

 

10 hours ago, DaletheGood said:

You've gone from ESC to close windows to setting C for chop.

C to chop was an example I was using as an analogy to help you understand my perspective. Apologies for confusing you. It doesn't matter either way, but I'll redo the example using Esc as to be more consistent for you. 

 

Scenario A (Current System):                      You go to close a window and hit Esc thinking it'll work. It doesn't so you check the keybindings and see that it's set to nothing, you decide you don't like that keybinding, and change it to Esc.
Scenario B (Don't like Proposed System): You go to close a window and hit Esc thinking it'll work. It doesn't so you check the keybindings and see that it's set to Ctrl+W, you decide you don't like that keybinding, and change it to Esc.

Scenario C (You like Proposed System):   You go to close a window and hit Esc thinking it'll work. It doesn't so you check the keybindings and see that it's set to Ctrl+W, and then close out of the menu using that keybinding from then on.

 

10 hours ago, DaletheGood said:

I object to the original idea.

You object to the original proposed hotkey, yes. I thought I should reopen this post as per the rulings of creating new posts when there's already an old post with the same idea and to keep the forums less cluttered. I feel like a lot of people suggest ideas with additional ideas of how it should be implemented and for some reason whenever people disagree with the how it should be implemented part they disagree with the whole god damn thing and if I say I like the main idea, but now how it was implemented I apparently need to make a whole new thread for it. I do recognize that the title and OP of this post don't change, and people are probably going to get confused, but I still thinking making a whole new thread just to suggest a different hotkey is overkill. Maybe there isn't a way to solve that problem now, but it's clear to me that this single experiment of me "hijacking" (I see it as bumping) a thread has not been successful. As the conversation seems to derail consistently back to the OP even though I keep asking to ignore the OP's suggested hotkey keybind and just focus on discussing his suggested hotkey idea. We learn from failing and I've certainly learned a lot about how I could do better in the future. I'm by no means a professional forum user. I'm just looking to foster productive conversation on how we can improve the game.

 

In terms of fostering productive conversation please be more specific. This is why I got upset with your initial response in the first place. It's like me saying "I hate Wurm". When in reality you overall like Wurm there's just some things you dislike about it. There's nothing productive that can be taken from that because I didn't say what it was I specifically hated about Wurm. It's just a -1 without leaving any room for the OP or myself to potentially convince you to +1 instead. 

[Zuelatak 235]

edit: sorry ignore this post I misread something

Edited May 6, 2022 by Zuelatak

[Gwiz 151]

Just out of curiosity, which key would you suggest to replace ESC key for canceling actions if you use it for closing windows?

 

I use the ESC key quite often, for example, when I happen to queue up 3 actions and some mob I wasn't aware of attacks me or when I accidentally queue up 3 leveling actions when I meant to dig, etc., etc., etc.

[Zuelatak 235]

25 minutes ago, Gwiz said:

which key would you suggest to replace ESC key for canceling actions if you use it for closing windows?

Well there's probably a world that Esc could work under some conditions. As mentioned earlier you could have it cancel actions first and then menus, but idk. Might not be the right conditions.

 

I like the suggestion @Lisimbamade for Ctrl+W and then I carried that idea for Ctrl+Shift+X to close all windows (Both how browsers do it)

[Archaed 2,280]

Those keybinds sound horribke. Why do they need to be bound by default to absurd key combinations? 

 

I may joke wurm is Windows explorer the mmo, but that doesn't mean it needs to actually be it 

[Zuelatak 235]

18 minutes ago, Archaed said:

Why do they need to be bound by default to absurd key combinations? 

We are discussing the god damn key. If you don't like it then suggest what key you'd like! I'm only pushing that it's bound to SOMETHING. Unless you propose a less absurd key then mine is still the best even if it also the worst. 

 

It needs to be bound because then it is no longer a hidden feature that players have to hunt for and then rack their brains around what key to assign it to. A default keybinding scheme's purpose is to provide a player with a commonly used scheme, so that they don't have to put in any thought about what keys they're going to use. It's a whole ###### mess that people don't take the time clean. On the flip side if you're opposed to providing them a default then why is WASD an exception? Why are other currently default keys exceptions?

Edited May 6, 2022 by Zuelatak

[Archaed 2,280]

There's the keybind settings in the settings menu, that's where games put keybinds, and it's where people know where to go. 

[DaletheGood 1,073]

14 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

We are discussing the god damn key. If you don't like it then suggest what key you'd like! I'm only pushing that it's bound to SOMETHING. Unless you propose a less absurd key then mine is still the best even if it also the worst. 

 

It needs to be bound because then it is no longer a hidden feature that players have to hunt for and then rack their brains around what key to assign it to. A default keybinding scheme's purpose is to provide a player with a commonly used scheme, so that they don't have to put in any thought about what keys they're going to use. It's a whole ###### mess that people don't take the time clean. On the flip side if you're opposed to providing them a default then why is WASD an exception? Why are other currently default keys exceptions?

Now you sound even more silly. Why is WASD a default? Really? Because it's the basis of movement in almost ALL games. Duh. If you look thru the pre-made default keys, you'll see that they are the actions that are most basic and necessary for gameplay, and they follow existing conventions for video games where applicable, like Q and E for turn left and right respectively. You are proposing taking something that is not a necessity and assigning it a default key, and more egregious is you wanting to assign it to the ESC key which is already the Stop Action keybind which IS a necessity. That's just ridiculous. Per my earlier suggestion to you, have your close windows keybind added as an optional keybind, along with the other couple hundred optional keybinds we have available, and stop pushing this nonsensical idea that everyone needs a close window keybind. We don't. You might, but WE DON'T.

(We as in Wurm players in general).

[Archaed 2,280]

Zuelatak stop trying to overengineer every suggestion challenge (impossible) 

[Soluna 237]

Please do not ever change the game to include hotkeys for everything. Everybody utilizes their hotkeys differently. For example, my wife prefers to change the standard WASD because she likes using A and D for strafing instead of turning. Everyone has a different preference. If everything is hotkey'd by default, it just creates insane confusion. We're playing a game here, not trying to fly the space shuttle. It is way more user friendly to have those keybinds blank and be edited/created by the individual user to be a personal preference than having it already bound to something and having to change it (which causes that "something" to be gone).
 

One of the first things I do when I start playing any game is open options and look at the keybinds. That is a wonderful way to understand all the actions that are allowed in the game. I can't tell you how many times I've tried typing something in wurm, but didn't have chat open, and suddenly I've got wiki open, option bar open, journal open, whatever. And then I have to go back and close them to return to my functional UI.

Inform people of how and where to change hotkeys but beyond standard industry accepted ones, do NOT preset them.

Also, I hotkey'd X to be my cancel. I use it all the time when performing actions and when eating one bite of food, that's just my preference. Escape is my close window and I mouse over the container I have open and hit escape to close it. It is a lot easier (for me) to do that than using a mouse to try to click a small X in the upper right corner.

[Zuelatak 235]

2 hours ago, Archaed said:

There's the keybind settings in the settings menu, that's where games put keybinds, and it's where people know where to go. 

Thank you for not answering my question. "On the flip side if you're opposed to providing them a default then why is WASD an exception? Why are other currently default keys exceptions?

 

If there are additional default keys they will still see the keybind settings in the settings menu. That has no relevancy on why we shouldn't have more defaults

 

2 hours ago, Archaed said:

Zuelatak stop trying to overengineer every suggestion challenge (impossible) 

This post is literally me just asking for one additional default keybinding in the game. If that is "overengineering" then ######, IDK how this game will ever get better. Obviously I also want more keybinds to be defaulted, but that isn't the goal of this post.

 

2 hours ago, DaletheGood said:

Now you sound even more silly.

Well I'm a silly guy 😜

 

2 hours ago, DaletheGood said:

Why is WASD a default? Really? Because it's the basis of movement in almost ALL games.

And closing menus is a basic binding in ALL games. What. 

 

2 hours ago, DaletheGood said:

If you look thru the pre-made default keys, you'll see that they are the actions that are most basic and necessary for gameplay, and they follow existing conventions for video games where applicable

I also see a lack of pre-made default keys that are necessary for gameplay. That is why I'm advocating for default keybindings.

 

2 hours ago, DaletheGood said:

like Q and E for turn left and right respectively.

Actually a bad example. This is something no longer really being used by games.

 

2 hours ago, DaletheGood said:

Per my earlier suggestion to you, have your close windows keybind added as an optional keybind, along with the other couple hundred optional keybinds we have available, and stop pushing this nonsensical idea that everyone needs a close window keybind.

Dale. I don't think you understand that a hotkey being default bound to something vs. being blank has no effect or whether or not it is optional. If you don't like the default, you change it. If you don't like that it's blank, you change it. 

 

2 hours ago, DaletheGood said:

You might, but WE DON'T.

Alright well IDK who "we" is, but this change is for people who aren't even playing the game. I don't know how you could speak for potential players. Changing the defaults of the game will only effect New Players. You will not have to live in the world that is created by this change. You can opt in to the new defaults or keep them blank. My plan was for new accounts to have the new scheme, and not effect current accounts.

 

1 hour ago, Soluna said:

For example, my wife prefers to change the standard WASD because she likes using A and D for strafing instead of turning. Everyone has a different preference.

And if WASD wasn't bound she would still do the same? I'm seriously confused why this matters. You are correct that people have a preference and will change the keybinding. I'm not advocating for a keybinding that cannot be changed. Your wife will just see a Ctrl+W (or some other key) for close window instead of a blank and then change it. Nothing about there being a default key will change your Wife's playing experience. Except that if for instance WASD wasn't bound then she would have to do it and she would also to figure out what to bind it to. By adding in more defaults we remove that need.

 

1 hour ago, Soluna said:

We're playing a game here, not trying to fly the space shuttle. It is way more user friendly to have those keybinds blank and be edited/created by the individual user to be a personal preference than having it already bound to something and having to change it (which causes that "something" to be gone).

Can you explain why a blank keybinding that you change is different from a not blank keybinding that you change? 

 

1 hour ago, Soluna said:

suddenly I've got wiki open, option bar open, journal open, whatever.

God wouldn't it be wonderful if we had a keybinding to instantly close those >.< I kid I kid. I hate how those steal your focus so you have to close them before typing in the chat tho omgggg.

 

1 hour ago, Soluna said:

Inform people of how and where to change hotkeys but beyond standard industry accepted ones, do NOT preset them.

I agree on informing them, but whyyyyyyyyyyy not preset them. What do you lose?!?! I'm so confused.

 

1 hour ago, Soluna said:

It is a lot easier (for me) to do that than using a mouse to try to click a small X in the upper right corner.

This is exactly why I'm asking for a default key to close these windows. Without even having to mouse over them.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Zuelatak

[TheTrickster 2,284]

<delurking>

 

Oh, the fisking, it hurts!

 

@ZuelatakI have become more and more convinced that you are actually more interested in engaging in argument for argument's sake than in convincing anybody of anything.  You even employ "My idea might be terrible but unless you argue with me and suggest another, I win by default," type arguments.  No, there is a current status quo, and if an idea about changing it is a bad idea, then that is all there need to be be to it.  You seem to want people to argue about WHAT default keybinds they would like, when what they are saying is "NO" to idea of default keybinds for non-essentials.  Essentially, your position is "Assume I am fundamentally correct, and disagree with me only on that basis."  It is paradoxical, not to mention arrogant (okay, I mentioned it), and does nothing to convince anyone of anything other than the futility of engaging with you.

 

In short, your entire approach feels like trolling.   As I have indicated before, I like the FACT of your engagement, but the MANNER of it I find repellent.

 

<re-engaging lurking device>

[DaletheGood 1,073]

20 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

I don't know how you could speak for potential players.

And I don't know how you can either. But, I would think that most people, new players, old players, or whatever, would want the choice to bind unnecessary actions to the keys of their choice, not have them pre-defined. I struggled for years playing this game because the Open Wiki was set to H. Before the UI update it was a pain in the butt to change keybinds, as it was done thru the console. So, this new system of quick-binding the keybinds thru the right-click menu is wonderful. It's got just the right amount of necessary functions pre-programmed, and leaves the rest to be programmed by me, not by you or some dev, but by ME.

 

29 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

Alright well IDK who "we" is

That We is everyone on this thread who disagrees with you. Having read their arguments against your idea, I felt comfortable in including them in the universal "we". Which should have been self-explanatory.

 

31 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

Can you explain why a blank keybinding that you change is different from a not blank keybinding that you change? 

Can you? Cause your argument for a whole new slew of default keybinds is that it's not inherently different than not having them, except that you presume to speak for new players and assume that they want their default keybinds set up exactly how you like them. But, what gives you the right to speak for those hypothetical new players?

[Zuelatak 235]

32 minutes ago, DaletheGood said:

And I don't know how you can either

I don't. I never once said I speak for potential players, you did. As this discussion is only about New Players.

 

33 minutes ago, DaletheGood said:

But, I would think that most people, new players, old players, or whatever, would want the choice to bind unnecessary actions to the keys of their choice

Why does this keep getting brought up? What do you think I'm advocating for that would change this? They will still get to choose the bind regardless if it's unnecessary and regardless if it's already bound to something.

 

34 minutes ago, DaletheGood said:

That We is everyone on this thread who disagrees with you.

Well everyone in this thread isn't a ###### New Player, so it doesn't matter if you don't want it. You weren't going to get it anyway 

 

36 minutes ago, DaletheGood said:

Which should have been self-explanatory.

"(We as in Wurm players in general)." is contradictory to what you defined we as just now, so yeah. It wasn't self-explanatory.

 

38 minutes ago, DaletheGood said:

Can you?

No, because it's your claim, so I'm asking you to explain why it's bad. I don't think it makes any different, so ofc I couldn't explain why it would???

 

39 minutes ago, DaletheGood said:

except that you presume to speak for new players and assume that they want their default keybinds set up exactly how you like them. But, what gives you the right to speak for those hypothetical new players?

I'm ###### not Dale oh my god. I assume players want default keybinds. It ends there. What the keybind is set to is up to us right here right now. If you don't want to provide an alternative then of course my option would be the option then. It wasn't even my proposed keybind to begin with. I just agreed with someone's idea of Ctrl+W since you don't like it being on Esc. The right given to me is that you aren't providing an alternative. That's it. I'm not forcing that keybind on anyone.

 

1 hour ago, TheTrickster said:

"My idea might be terrible but unless you argue with me and suggest another, I win by default,"

No, it's my idea is good but you think the keybind is terrible. If you don't provide an alternative keybind I don't know what to ###### tell you man. I'm not gonna sit here listing off every key on a keyboard until you say "I like that one."

 

1 hour ago, TheTrickster said:

You seem to want people to argue about WHAT default keybinds they would like, when what they are saying is "NO" to idea of default keybinds for non-essentials.

And I'm asking literally all of them WHY. I'm trying to understand why you are saying no, but you just keep saying no. Tell me why a blank keybind is better than no keybind. And don't say "Cause then I can change it" because you still ###### could. It's a stupid argument. I do want to discuss what default keybinding would be best. Why wouldn't I? I believe the idea is a good. However, I've been actively discussing why they think it's a bad idea, not what I want to discuss.

[DaletheGood 1,073]

1 minute ago, Zuelatak said:

I assume players want default keybinds

I assume they don't. At least not all the unnecessary ones, and this close windows one is un-freakin-necessary

 

3 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

The right given to me is that you aren't providing an alternative

The alternative, as has been said repeatedly, is having it put in the game as an OPTIONAL keybind. One that is NOT pre-bound, like the vast majority of keybinds.

 

5 minutes ago, Zuelatak said:

It's a stupid argument

The stupid argument here is yours in insisting that it be a pre-determined keybind as opposed to, again, an optional one.

[Zuelatak 235]

1 minute ago, DaletheGood said:

I assume they don't.

Right and I'm trying to understand why you think New Players would hate to see a keybinding be bound vs. blank.

 

3 minutes ago, DaletheGood said:

is having it put in the game as an OPTIONAL keybind

IT STILL WOULD BE. WHAT DO YOU MEANNNNNNNNNN

 

4 minutes ago, DaletheGood said:

One that is NOT pre-bound, like the vast majority of keybinds.

WHY THIS PART. WHAT IS THE HARM IN IT. This is where the conversation should be right nowwwwwwww

 

4 minutes ago, DaletheGood said:

again, an optional one

again, it's still optional

[Lisimba 779]

6 hours ago, Zuelatak said:

Right and I'm trying to understand why you think New Players would hate to see a keybinding be bound vs. blank.

As someone who usually rebinds most keys (I play with esdf instead of wasd, for example) it's immensely helpful if only the important things are bound. If absolutely everything is bound and there are a lot of binds, there are usually no free keys to move things into, and it is a royal pain in the arse to work out a new mapping as every move requires another move to free up a key, and when I'm new to a game I've only a very crude idea of what keys actually matter. On the other hand, if only the important things are mapped, it's much easier to change things up as there are both fewer things to remap initially, and more free space to put them into.

[Madnath 3,113]

On 5/7/2022 at 9:27 AM, Lisimba said:

As someone who usually rebinds most keys (I play with esdf instead of wasd, for example) it's immensely helpful if only the important things are bound. If absolutely everything is bound and there are a lot of binds, there are usually no free keys to move things into, and it is a royal pain in the arse to work out a new mapping as every move requires another move to free up a key, and when I'm new to a game I've only a very crude idea of what keys actually matter. On the other hand, if only the important things are mapped, it's much easier to change things up as there are both fewer things to remap initially, and more free space to put them into.

 

On the other hand, assigning binds to keys is a good way to get the user into the settings to see that everything is tweakable as they see fit and that there's a lot of options open to them. I don't think people are going to think the binds that are there as default are locked in. On the PC platform we're lucky enough to get rebindable keys as a pretty standard thing, and people know how to get to a settings menu to see keybinds.

 

I ultimately see no harm in adding additional keybinds to the default profile, so long as they're well curated. We can see from the Josh Hayes video, there wasn't any attempt to touch the binds because there wasn't really a need to early on, but that means they don't think about binds and the comfort that offers.

 

I feel like a large chunk of this conversation has been stonewalled by thinking Zuelatak is fighting for this new keybindable action to be keybound to one specific key, when really we need to be looking at it is "hey devs, please give us this as an additional keybind option"

Edited May 8, 2022 by Madnath

[Zuelatak 235]

On 5/7/2022 at 1:27 AM, Lisimba said:

As someone who usually rebinds most keys (I play with esdf instead of wasd, for example) it's immensely helpful if only the important things are bound. If absolutely everything is bound and there are a lot of binds, there are usually no free keys to move things into, and it is a royal pain in the arse to work out a new mapping as every move requires another move to free up a key, and when I'm new to a game I've only a very crude idea of what keys actually matter. On the other hand, if only the important things are mapped, it's much easier to change things up as there are both fewer things to remap initially, and more free space to put them into.

While this is true there's an easy solution for this and that's to not care if something gets unbound. If you didn't know the bind to begin with then it was essentially blank to you anyways, so you'd end up setting it blank, and having to set it later when you need it. Which would be the same as it is now. However, if there's a default key there and Wurm alerted them of what unbound then they might actually like the default and stop themselves from messing up their keys. I'm not sure how to convey that confidence to a user atm, but maybe someone can help build off that. 

[Archaed 2,280]

There's no need to define default binds, there's a glaring big keybind setting option, right where people would expect to find it. 

 

I love how this has gone from "add a keybind to close windows" to "we need to build more default binds" 

 

Zuel, I see you doing this in multiple threads, so I just want to suggest that perhaps the idea of perfecting every design and coming from a place where you are right and others are wrong is causing you to wind up over engineering suggestions. 

 

The devs, and players can choose when and where keybinds are added, all we have to do is say "yes I'd use that"