Sign in to follow this  
hemrzz

Creating an ongoing market in WURM

Recommended Posts

Wurmians should age and eventually die.  That way, there is a constant replacing of top-end accounts, which should (also) never be bought and sold in the first place.

 

The only way to have a proper economy is to support the concepts of consumption, supply, and demand.  Right now, characters are never "consumed" they are mostly just traded.

 

Wurm's economy doesn't need the "bottom to drop out", it needs the "top to be lopped off"!

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Brash_Endeavors said:

Wurm was built off an economic model that was never sustainable in the long term

 

Time for an overhaul

1 minute ago, Eyesgood said:

Wurmians should age and eventually die.  That way, there is a constant replacing of top-end accounts, which should (also) never be bought and sold in the first place.

 

The only way to have a proper economy is to support the concepts of consumption, supply, and demand.  Right now, characters are never "consumed" they are mostly just traded.

 

Wurm's economy doesn't need the "bottom to drop out", it needs the "top to be lopped off"!

 

Was thinking of this too. And my old time fav. perma death. Where every battle matters. :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Eyesgood said:

Wurmians should age and eventually die.  That way, there is a constant replacing of top-end accounts, which should (also) never be bought and sold in the first place.

 

The only way to have a proper economy is to support the concepts of consumption, supply, and demand.  Right now, characters are never "consumed" they are mostly just traded.

 

Wurm's economy doesn't need the "bottom to drop out", it needs the "top to be lopped off"!

 

> Chronicles of Elyria

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, FranktheTank said:

> Chronicles of Elyria

yep, but early game is very heavy p2w. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

-1

 

Would you pay more, or less for limited use tools/weapons/armor? 

 

I could be wrong here, but I thought:

Low prices = Valued currency = Your money goes further = Healthy economy.

High prices = Devalued currency = Your money is worthless = Dying economy.

 

You create demand by steadily trying to grow the player base, not by nerfing your vets.

 

FYI, this is coming from a noobish scrub that still has to pay for anything worth anything in the game. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Surprised he did not add that items have a chance to be destroyed at any QL also ...   ?

 

As is I see rare for sale like someone giving out M&M,s candy FFS.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gone are the days of just a handful of top skilled crafters.

 

People who are new that settle down in villages, alliances or just make new friends are more than likely to eventually know who has the skills for doing improvements on tools.

 

I worked hard to get my skills up to the point where I can maintain my own tools, armor and weapons, and I spend more than enough time keeping these same items in tip top shape, I see no reason to make tools non-impable.

 

The only way to save this lack of market is more players, making resources more scarce will just drive away more of the players we have left now, how will that solve anything?

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, JakeRivers said:

The only way to save this lack of market is more players, making resources more scarce will just drive away more of the players we have left now, how will that solve anything?

 

This is debatable. i remember when xan first open, veins for some people were hard to find. then poof more veins were added. now we have tons of veins and no people. ?

Edited by gorgian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

tl;dr: copyright protection and wealth consolidation to high-level crafters and no one else. 

 

"DEAR SIR, DO NOT MODIFY THIS UNIT OR YOU VOID YOUR WARRANTY." - PvPland

 

-1 

Edited by Trake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, gorgian said:

 

This is debatable. i remember when xan first open, veins for some people were hard to find. then poof more veins were added. now we have tons of veins and no people. ?

 

Rather than resources I meant good ql tools, and the means to keep them in good shape.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JakeRivers said:

 

Rather than resources I meant good ql tools, and the means to keep them in good shape.

ahh.. well i do think there should be a rare chance of that tool or weapon can break for use.This can be factored in with QL and rarity, along with age. The age is the wild card in the code.  

 

Just like in real life the older the item is the higher the chance it can break. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, gorgian said:

ahh.. well i do think there should be a rare chance of that tool or weapon can break for use.This can be factored in with QL and rarity, along with age. The age is the wild card in the code.  

 

Just like in real life the older the item is the higher the chance it can break. 

 

you want a chance to bust your tool, try casting on it, plenty of opportunity right there

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, JakeRivers said:

 

you want a chance to bust your tool, try casting on it, plenty of opportunity right there

That's only casting. I'm talking about use and age. :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Olden day swordsmen had an affinity with their sword, they would train with this one weapon, care for, maintain and repair this one weapon so that they knew they could rely on it to save their life if they ever found themselves in a fight.

 

It is therefore understandable that many folks want to keep their weapons and tools that they made for themselves in the beginning.  For them,  it is so much easier to sell bulk items which are somehow less personal.

 

What I would like to see is some way of augmenting or improving new players' weapons and tools, that everyone can do - something that doesn't rely on high player level / scarce items like unique blood, or rift runes, or an additional priest alt being premmed.

 

I like the idea of socket crystals, which new players could insert into sockets on their starter pick-axe, shovel or hatchet, and then carry on with their everyday mundane bulk-producing activities such as mining rock, digging clay or cutting logs.  These crystals would then charge up over time with mining, digging or woodcutting skills essence.  They would start to benefit the new player by gradually improving the QL of the items produced.  The crystals could also be removed and sold to other players if required, and if sacced or eaten would give a temporary affinity in mining digging or woodcutting effective according to the power of the charge (based on number of actions up to a max 'full' crystal).  I can see some high level grinders using those.

 

It is possible that some high level players will create newbie alts with starter tools just to try this out, but the crystals would still take real playing time to charge and accrue value. I suggest a limit for the on-charge time for the crystals to a set amount of time or number of actions, to prevent excessive spamming.  I think that limiting the sockets to the starter tools or *possibly* crude tools would put off any high level professional bulk producers from overpowering the system.

 

I am just floating ideas, and I am sure you can think of many reasons for and against.  Something we can agree on is that we should really try to find far more ways of rewarding new players for any and all effort they put in.

 

If, like the olden day swordsmen, we only had just the one new player in Wurm, we would train this one player, care for and maintain this one player, so that we knew we could rely on them to keep playing.  They are that rare and precious. I think we've all been treating new players as merely 'bulk supplies' for far too long.

Edited by Muse

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, gorgian said:

Just like in real life the older the item is the higher the chance it can break

 

Well, realistically older tools are often better made and newer ones are all cheap plasticy stuff made on purpose to break with usage so that companies can make money selling more and more replacement crapola.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Brash_Endeavors said:

 

Well, realistically older tools are often better made and newer ones are all cheap plasticy stuff made on purpose to break with usage so that companies can make money selling more and more replacement crapola.

 

 

 

 

I don't remember breaking any of my old tools, those are built well.

 

Maybe a wood handle on occasion, but replacing a axe or hammer handle is easy.

 

Today's tools are disposable though, made in the manner the OP would like to see wurm tools made, weak, flimsy, cheap and prone to breaking.

 

We really don't need that in wurm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, kochinac said:

I think they are referring to OP that locking items at some ql in order to use them will end impalongs, no items to imp no impalongs, maybe newbies will stand in line and wait for finished brand new 70 ql tools to be hand out to them. Now that doesn't sound much fun as current implalongs, does it? Anyway I don't think anyone mind fixing economy but the ways people propose to fix it which often propose introduction of lowering qol and tedious play style. This proposal will not help new players which was one of the arguments at all on contrary it will even make easier for rich people to get more rich. So we have discussions about economy almost every month and all are pointless and no good solutions comes out of it but the point of this thread is that OP proposal is bad in so many ways no matter how much arguments about economy you try to bring in.

 

OPs suggestion, while it doesn't address everything, does one thing, it would increase demand. Of course it would've been better to not flood the market with so many goods in the first place, then we wouldn't have to look for "solutions" here.

 

But no matter how to fix things, it involves limits in one way or another. Ironically the "QoL  and lowering tedious play style" is something, which actually digs the economy sinkhole deeper and deeper, all it does, is increasing the supply of goods, while at the same time decreasing demand. Why were/are people willing to pay for others? So they didn't/don't have to focus on those so-called tedious things and pay someone else to do them, who doesn't mind. Of course, the goal to improve gameplay isn't bad, but when it is so fundamental to Wurms economy, then you can't just remove it without replacing it with something else. Not a good idea to start sawing the branch you are sitting on.

 

To conclude, until Wurms development is being run like a cheap popularity contest, then nothing will ever get done.. that means, that we will continue to have those "discussions about economy almost every month and all are pointless and no good solutions comes out". Mainly because there are no good solutions short term. Question is, what effect various solutions have long term.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, rixk said:

 

OPs suggestion, while it doesn't address everything, does one thing, it would increase demand. Of course it would've been better to not flood the market with so many goods in the first place, then we wouldn't have to look for "solutions" here.

 

No it wouldn't. It would shift demand from imping to the buying new items, those who can already imp items  will still make them for themselves and not buy them. It will increase demand for enchants but like someone said if you have to buy new weapon and pay 4 casts everytime after a day of hunt, or more likely remeade them and cast yourself untill you quit because it's unnecessary  complicated and after that there will be even less custommers, les customers worst market...It will also decrease demand for supremes as who in the right mind would pay 20s for something that will be usable at good ql for couple of months or couple Ks actions? If there would be way to recycle rare and supreme essence and guarantie rarity supremity of new them upon using it maybe but still too much bother. Not to mention that some people are emotionaly attached for some of their items. for example i have supreme oak 102 botd loom with my signature that is my first supreme item i made and i personaly enchanted it and was so proud of it, OP would prevent me to use it and turn it into museum piece that collects dust on my deed as i don't want't it to end up at some miserable ql and break which is stupid. Some people still keep and use with proud first mallet they ever made, you want to take that away from them for the sake of economy? OP looks things only for perspective of common tools which are the least problem. Reselling accounts is the worst cancer for the economy i think. Crafting already has mechanics for economic sustainlability and that is need to reimprove items to keep them in top ql.

IMO OP will not increase anything will just decrease everything.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who are all these people that are going to buy your over priced tools rather than make it themselves or get a friend to?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FYI, I personally would never buy items off people, and would work to make my own each and every time.

 

Additionally I would make comparable items to what others produce, and sell them at a reduced rate because this is a video game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, kochinac said:

No it wouldn't. It would shift demand from imping to the buying new items, those who can already imp items  will still make them for themselves and not buy them. It will increase demand for enchants but like someone said if you have to buy new weapon and pay 4 casts everytime after a day of hunt, or more likely remeade them and cast yourself untill you quit because it's unnecessary  complicated and after that there will be even less custommers, les customers worst market...It will also decrease demand for supremes as who in the right mind would pay 20s for something that will be usable at good ql for couple of months or couple Ks actions? If there would be way to recycle rare and supreme essence and guarantie rarity supremity of new them upon using it maybe but still too much bother. Not to mention that some people are emotionaly attached for some of their items. for example i have supreme oak 102 botd loom with my signature that is my first supreme item i made and i personaly enchanted it and was so proud of it, OP would prevent me to use it and turn it into museum piece that collects dust on my deed as i don't want't it to end up at some miserable ql and break which is stupid. Some people still keep and use with proud first mallet they ever made, you want to take that away from them for the sake of economy? OP looks things only for perspective of common tools which are the least problem. Reselling accounts is the worst cancer for the economy i think. Crafting already has mechanics for economic sustainlability and that is need to reimprove items to keep them in top ql. 



IMO OP will not increase anything will just decrease everything. 

 

It will create demand, as new item is completely different than imping up a thing. Currently lifetime of a tool ends, when enchant is gone, or in a state, where owner thinks it is too low.

 

The emotional part is the reason, why all the changes to fix economy are unpopular decisions. Like I said in previous post, there will be tears no matter what we do.. change items repairability, limit output, limit skills, whatever.. Unpopular doesn't really mean it is not needed, same goes for popular, not all popular suggestions mean it is good change.


Reselling is smaller problem than everyone believes. Look at the number of total crafters (niarja probably doesn't give the full picture, but still gives pretty good idea). Now look at the toons traded. I don't know, how many toons are traded privately, but I think we can be safe to assume, that it is in the best interest of the seller to advertise it publicly to earn most from it, so majority of the trades happen publicly. When we compare those numbers (total crafters vs sold crafters), the accounts sold is only a tiny fraction. A lot more players go inactive instead of trying to sell their account. So a few accounts more or less going inactive/changing hands and staying active is not big issue. On chaos it has probably bigger effect(and from my understanding that is where most traded high end accounts end up anyway) as there playerbase is considerably smaller and traded accounts have a bigger ratio in overall (chaos) playerbase. And even trading doesn't mean that toon will be around indefinitely, as it is good chance, that it goes inactive in the hands of new owner. Plenty of old players coming back and trying to find their old sold toon, which is inactive.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, FranktheTank said:

FYI, I personally would never buy items off people, and would work to make my own each and every time.

 

Additionally I would make comparable items to what others produce, and sell them at a reduced rate because this is a video game. 

And that is another problem which OP didn't even touch, output of crafters. It is possible make all your own things, you can make things for your friends and you can make things for half of the server. :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, rixk said:

t will create demand, as new item is completely different than imping up a thing. Currently lifetime of a tool ends, when enchant is gone, or in a state, where owner thinks it is too low.

 

Again I ask you, what demand? Are you going to use alts to buy your own products?

 

Screw with this and more people will quit the game driving the population numbers even lower, grab a brain there is no solution for the market with a shrinking population.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, rixk said:

It will create demand, as new item is completely different than imping up a thing. Currently lifetime of a tool ends, when enchant is gone, or in a state, where owner thinks it is too low.

You buy 95 ql tool, wear it down to 80ql (which is extremly easy just try to destroy vein or surface mine with ordinary pickaxe) and which in your eyes is ###### , in your case you discard it or resell cheap and buy a new one or currently you imp it back to 95ql. In case that you don't have skills and are paying someone in both cases please explain the difference in demand? It's still a equal task for crafter. Only difference is that tool needs to be enchanted again but on ordinary tool enhcants also wears down quicky at certain point so you have to get new one or recast. Rares holds enchants much longer i admit but it wouldn't be a problem to recast from time to time back to original cast if the enchnating system isn't so retarded. No difference at all, OP doesn't bring anything new. 

Edited by kochinac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

None of that does anything to make Wurm a better game for 95 percent of players.  It's only meant to make the game more profitable for 5% of players. 

 

As always, the ONLY ones to benefit are a tiny minority of the top skilled crafter characters, a very large number of whom never even earned those skills themselves but instead purchased characters for the sole purpose of making money off the other 95%. The game is an "economic game" for them, because for them that aspect of the game is the most fun.  You invest, you profit. I get that. It's too bad those days were already doomed ten years ago. Wurm's economy is based on a broken model, and ruining the game in order to "fix it" for 5% is worse than no fix at all.

 

In fact, the very smartest thing Wurm devs can do, is NOT to try to fix something broken beyond repair, and instead try to make Wurm a much better game for the 95% who do not consider the "game economy" to be it's most compelling feature. The game economy will always be there, it is not ever going away. Some will always make very good incomes off it, and in fact even make real life profits.  It is also not going to "get better" by improving ways to move yet more real life money from the majority of players, to the top moneymaker toons.

 

 

Instead, work on UI, tutorials, game polish, community interactions, combat & pvp, and after all of that is done, only then work on advertising.

Not trying to increase populations simply in order to increase profits for some, but to make the game a more enjoyable experience for everyone. 

Larger populations will help crafter characters too, but that's not the primary reason we need larger populations. 

 

Edited by Brash_Endeavors
  • Like 11

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this