Creating an ongoing market in WURM

[Seajay 43]

-1 People spend good money on their high end stuff. Causing deliberate loss of all such items wouldn't solve anything but fatting the wallets of some irl and causing others to quit. Prices on nice stuff would sky rocket.

[Oblivionnreaver 5,174]

1 minute ago, Toecutter said:

Ok lets see? your logic is trading is dying,but it's the second most popular sub forum count?????

100 people bumping their merchant thread daily doesn't mean anything chief

[rixk 830]

5 minutes ago, Toecutter said:

Ok lets see? your logic is trading is dying,but it's the second most popular sub forum count?????

It show popularity/activity, not in what state economy is actually in. But I am always willing to hear your story, how those things are related.

Edited August 30, 2018 by rixk

[Toecutter 331]

9 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

100 people bumping their merchant thread daily doesn't mean anything chief

That's my point, dances with wolves.

[whereami 564]

To anyone who has played this game for longer than about 5 years, it should be blatantly obvious that the Wurm market is currently in freefall, and has been for a long while now.

 

Everything in the entire game; Building mats, Imping services, Favor creation, Tools, Weapons, Armor, even Drake, Scale, and MoonMetals - They're all worth nearly half (okay, realistically around 60 to 70% on average across the board) what they were worth 6 or 7 years ago.

Everyone is selling, no one is buying. We already know why.

 

What matters is what we do to fix it. Is it going to be this?

[Flubb 773]

I'd +1 for the absolute gall to even suggest this, were it not so shortsighted for reasons already pointed out. You're a madlad (and have my respect).

 

But absolute -1 to the suggestion itself. It's another "how do we screw up gameplay for the majority in favor of the 10% that actually give an actual ###### about MUH MARKET" take that nobody needs.

 

Easy and high profile example: the tradition of impalongs would be severely stifled by this, taking away from what actually puts a genuine feeling of community into this game.

[kochinac 1,395]

59 minutes ago, Rakki said:

Do it on drake and scale as well!

Should be at least imped with drake/scale bits instead of leather like moon metal weapons are imped 

[FranktheTank 1,901]

Haha this is wild! 

 

I love how crazy it is +1 my dude, godspeed. 

[Gwyn 328]

Here's a radical thought: there is nothing wrong with the market. It's functioning just as a healthy free market should, with prices adjusting in line with supply and demand. True, it's not a sellers' market, but buyers in Wurm – that is, mainly new players – are enjoying the best market they've ever had.

 

The same thing tends to happen in real life economies. As they mature, more producers accumulate, leading to more competition, increased efficiency and output quality, and lower prices: all of which is great news for consumers. The idea in the OP sounds to me a lot like planned obsolescence, which is an absolutely abhorrent practice. When stuff becomes so good and cheap that people don't need to buy more of it, it's not a problem (except for manufacturers) – it is a boon. It means everyone has more time for other pursuits and, in Wurm terms, it might mean fewer people are tempted to grind up <insert over-supplied trade here>. So be it. If there is a solution to the 'problem' of the economy, it is to develop Wurm's non-crafting aspects: combat, PvP, community, graphics, etc. If the game can offer truly compelling gameplay beyond crafting, more players will be willing to shell out silver to have someone else make their stuff and the balance in the market will shift back towards demand.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Gwyn

[platinumteef 2,198]

+1

[platinumteef 2,198]

delete freedom and start it over 

[JakeRivers 2,921]

First off, I will whip out the graph:

 

https://jenn001.game.wurmonline.com/mrtg/paying.html

 

Wurm seems to be holding for that last few at around 2250 premium players, how many alts are included and actual players only rolf knows.

 

This low player population can not sustain a active market place and making our creations as disposable as modern appliances are today will not change things and may even make wurm less desirable to play. I know, the credit card players would be all happy for this, but for the most part things would only worsen.

 

-1

 

 

[kochinac 1,395]

17 minutes ago, platinumteef said:

delete freedom and start it over 

This could actually help economy for couple of years, everyone having zero skills and just starter tools, not sure anyone would stay for that though

Edited August 30, 2018 by kochinac

[CountZero 58]

25 minutes ago, Gwyn said:

Here's a radical thought: there is nothing wrong with the market. It's functioning just as a healthy free market should, with prices adjusting in line with supply and demand. True, it's not a sellers' market, but buyers in Wurm – that is, mainly new players – are enjoying the best market they've ever had.

 

The same thing tends to happen in real life economies. As they mature, more producers accumulate, leading to more competition, increased efficiency and output quality, and lower prices: all of which is great news for consumers. The idea in the OP sounds to me a lot like planned obsolescence, which is an absolutely abhorrent practice. When stuff becomes so good and cheap that people don't need to buy more of it, it's not a problem (except for manufacturers) – it is a boon. It means everyone has more time for other pursuits and, in Wurm terms, it might mean fewer people are tempted to grind up <insert over-supplied trade here>. So be it. If there is a solution to the 'problem' of the economy, it is to develop Wurm's non-crafting aspects: combat, PvP, community, graphics, etc. If the game can offer truly compelling gameplay beyond crafting, more players will be willing to shell out silver to have someone else make their stuff and the balance in the market will shift back towards demand.

 

 

say a new-ish player makes a lvl 50 sword and wants to sell it to another new player. Where does that new player get the coin from to buy it? 

 

The npc trader system doesn't really work. Its too difficult to reach one when they have cash and even if you do, the stuff a new player could sell to it would only give small coins which would be ok if there were plenty of ppl selling lower ql items at low prices (prices far too low to be worth while for an older player)

 

 

[JakeRivers 2,921]

19 minutes ago, CountZero said:

say a new-ish player makes a lvl 50 sword and wants to sell it to another new player. Where does that new player get the coin from to buy it? 

 

Would have to work for it, not as easy as it used to be, there still is some market still. Making bulk mats to sell, or scrounging for coins by hunting/foraging.

 

Also can just hit the coin store and buy silvers.

Edited August 30, 2018 by JakeRivers

[armyskin 930]

Never got a coin from foraging or hunting eh?

[rixk 830]

1 hour ago, Gwyn said:

Here's a radical thought: there is nothing wrong with the market. It's functioning just as a healthy free market should, with prices adjusting in line with supply and demand. True, it's not a sellers' market, but buyers in Wurm – that is, mainly new players – are enjoying the best market they've ever had.

 

The same thing tends to happen in real life economies. As they mature, more producers accumulate, leading to more competition, increased efficiency and output quality, and lower prices: all of which is great news for consumers. The idea in the OP sounds to me a lot like planned obsolescence, which is an absolutely abhorrent practice. When stuff becomes so good and cheap that people don't need to buy more of it, it's not a problem (except for manufacturers) – it is a boon. It means everyone has more time for other pursuits and, in Wurm terms, it might mean fewer people are tempted to grind up <insert over-supplied trade here>. So be it. If there is a solution to the 'problem' of the economy, it is to develop Wurm's non-crafting aspects: combat, PvP, community, graphics, etc. If the game can offer truly compelling gameplay beyond crafting, more players will be willing to shell out silver to have someone else make their stuff and the balance in the market will shift back towards demand. 



Any market, where prices plummet like they did in Wurm, is not healthy market. Wurm's constant, to which the silver is tied and which give silver in game value, isn't actually euros, but the services, which CCAB offers: premium, deed upkeep, trader goods. And compared to those prices silver value has gone down and keeps going down. To buy premium(or whatever CCAB service), more and more play hours have to be put into the game.

[CountZero 58]

coin from foraging/hunting is very few and far between and low value. which would be fine if the newish seller accepted a few copper for the sword which he would in a fresh server because he'd base his prices on the general availability of money. (If the richest person on the server had 10 copper then 1 copper for a sword seems good).

 

However, since the economy and players are developed, there is much much more money in circulation so inflation has raised the price of stuff to match which is fine for the players that developed with it but to a new player coming in, earning a few copper on a random chance once every few days isnt really a solution.

 

Working for it is fine, except that means theres needs to be an active and easy to tap into labour market. I think the more popular WU servers actually use this concept to put money in circulation by having GM's pay players for building roads and towers.

 

 

[armyskin 930]

32 minutes ago, CountZero said:

easy

 

 

 

[Amadee 1,543]

47 minutes ago, CountZero said:

I think the more popular WU servers actually use this concept to put money in circulation by having GM's pay players for building roads and towers.

 

They also pay bounties on mobs.  WU is not based on RL cash except for those that sell goodies for "donations."  And even that is more like a cash shop and the money goes to those running the server and not to players using the game to fatten their RL bank accounts at the expense of other players.

 

-1.  If WO wasn't based on RL cash, I might feel a bit more tolerant towards something like this.  It's a game. Most of us play games for entertainment, not for some convoluted RL money making scheme.  Planned obsolescence is a totally F'd up practice in RL, in my opinion, and is one of the last things I ever want to see in Wurm.

 

edit:  Not to mention no more impalongs, people helping newbies by imping their stuff, etc.  You know, all that annoying social stuff that promotes good will but does nothing for the pockets of the RL money people.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Amadee

[FranktheTank 1,901]

Why is everyone in this game so obsessed with trying to make money off it? 

 

I will never understand.

[rixk 830]

29 minutes ago, Amadee said:

 

They also pay bounties on mobs.  WU is not based on RL cash except for those that sell goodies for "donations."  And even that is more like a cash shop and the money goes to those running the server and not to players using the game to fatten their RL bank accounts at the expense of other players.

 

-1.  If WO wasn't based on RL cash, I might feel a bit more tolerant towards something like this.  It's a game. Most of us play games for entertainment, not for some convoluted RL money making scheme.  Planned obsolescence is a totally F'd up practice in RL, in my opinion, and is one of the last things I ever want to see in Wurm.

 

edit:  Not to mention no more impalongs, people helping newbies by imping their stuff, etc.  You know, all that annoying social stuff that promotes good will but does nothing for the pockets of the RL money people.

Another silly reason: "People make money, let's keep the broken economy that way". Mechanic-wise there is no difference between someone doing trading full-time (and selling few silver in the process) and newbie, who joins the game and tries to earn few silvers for his first deed and/or premium. You may be after those full-time traders, because obviously… they are bad, because they make money, they take(and have taken) losses of course.. but the volume in their trading makes it up.. lets say their income is lowered by 50%, but when they made a gold per month, after 50% losses they still made 50silvers, which is decent income. Don't forget, they are fulltime traders.. that newbie, who just joined, for him the losses are bigger, because of not trading that actively they have also harder time to find customers in already harsh environment.

So basically trying to hit those big-time traders, you will hit newbies even harder. Also "fighting" silver trade is also weird.. I always have said, don't make decisions based on emotions, and there is great deal of jealousy involved. First. We want to promote trade (obviously in wurm the devs don't, but in real world/even virtual worlds this is true).. that involves silver changing hands and this is goal.. now that is completely irrelevant, what is the motivation behind that.. it doesn't really matter for what you trade, is it a tool, or some euros change hands via paypal.. in economy the silver is moving around and is not getting "stuck" somewhere.. Secondly if someone buys silver, this happens for a reason.. they plan to spend it, noone really buys silver to put into the bank account and stare it there for months. There have been amazing projects which have come to life, what have been made possible because of silver trade. For bigger projects in many cases materials have been bought for silver acquired from other players. Now of course there is one argument, which is so-so, that silver traded between players is a purchase lost from store. That is not 1:1, some definitely, but not all. But how the silver trade actually stirs the market, I think the benefit from that makes it up.

 

That I don't understand, why "fixing economy" means end to impalongs.. Impalongs have been longer in game, than me (I am from 2012) and back then the economy was in far better state than nowadays. Social gatherings still happened etc.. People traded and also helped each other..

Edited August 30, 2018 by rixk

[Mclavin 3,704]

+1

[kochinac 1,395]

5 minutes ago, rixk said:

 

That I don't understand, why "fixing economy" means end to impalongs.. Impalongs have been longer in game, than me (I am from 2012) and back then the economy was in far better state than nowadays. Social gatherings still happened etc.. People traded and also helped each other..

I think they are referring to OP that locking items at some ql in order to use them will end impalongs, no items to imp no impalongs, maybe newbies will stand in line and wait for finished brand new 70 ql tools to be hand out to them. Now that doesn't sound much fun as current implalongs, does it? Anyway I don't think anyone mind fixing economy but the ways people propose to fix it which often propose introduction of lowering qol and tedious play style. This proposal will not help new players which was one of the arguments at all on contrary it will even make easier for rich people to get more rich. So we have discussions about economy almost every month and all are pointless and no good solutions comes out of it but the point of this thread is that OP proposal is bad in so many ways no matter how much arguments about economy you try to bring in.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

10 hours ago, moonpie said:

-1 this would screw over so many new players on their road to making their own items and would solidify the position of people with high skill as being the only ones able to make items that are worth while 

 

 

Exactly right.  

 

Wurm's economy has always been based on a "Pyramid Scheme" that rewards the top percent who need  a constant influx of fresh blood they can leech off.   New players join, they are expected to put in real life cash to buy silver (often, buying silver from the top elite who no longer add any money to the game themselves, but instead sell off their profits for real life cash), then once the new players discover the main "fun" in the game is this transfer of real life cash from the bottom players to the top, they quit.

 

Meantime, new "self reliant" players who might want to make their own first starter set of tools and armor and slowly imp them up as they improve their skills, are told one of the main draws of Wurm's gameplay is being trashed because its not profitable for the top tier if they do this.   

 

 

Wurm was built off an economic model that was never sustainable in the long term. 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by Brash_Endeavors