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Question about mines and collapses

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So recently i have been hearing more and more stories of people loosing boats or items due to a collapse of what seems to be either a rather new mine or a reinforced old mine and that has left me wondering.

I know that reinforcements don't fully stop collapses but make the chance really really really low(seen them collapse myself before) and i know that depending on the gm and their mood and who you are either you are told you get nothing back or just the items or everything(eg boat+items or everything that was on a tile) so i want to ask the question.

What is the actual stance on collapses that happen in mines when it comes to a new mine/fully reinforced with a person being in it/having been in it and them having lost a vehicle or items due to a collapse? 

As the whole 3 different stances thing seems rather weird to me especially with the most recent story being one of someone loosing their rare boat they loved and was their most precious item in the game and only getting the items inside back yet an other one a while back that person getting everything back.

And if gm's do stick to different stances on who gets what back and when can we get some clarification on what and when? As i personally and i am sure many others too would rather avoid loosing a lot of silver worth of items(and emotional value too for some) due to what we assume to be a safe mine eating our items.


A curious wurmian.

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I don't believe there is a chance for fully reinforced mine to cavein. Only exception is the mine entrance but it might have been fixed, were a patch note few years ago sounding like it.

 

Reinforced floors only reduces chance to cavein. Cave dwelling houses have no chance to cavein.

 

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1 hour ago, Sandyar said:

I don't believe there is a chance for fully reinforced mine to cavein. Only exception is the mine entrance but it might have been fixed, were a patch note few years ago sounding like it.

 

Reinforced floors only reduces chance to cavein. Cave dwelling houses have no chance to cavein.

 

 

I have seen collapses occur with reinforced walls numerous times.

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12 hours ago, wipeout said:

...the whole 3 different stances thing seems rather weird to me...

 

Welcome to Wurm. This has happened to me and some other members of my kingdom on Chaos and every time I have basically been told to eat my own shorts.
Usually when a container or a vehicle is destroyed in this fashion however, the items contained inside sometimes appear on the surface where that tile collapsed. So if you happen to get extremely lucky, you might get some of what you lost back by finding them this way.

 

3 hours ago, Sandyar said:

I don't believe there is a chance for fully reinforced mine to cavein. Only exception is the mine entrance but it might have been fixed, were a patch note few years ago sounding like it.

 

Reinforced floors only reduces chance to cavein. Cave dwelling houses have no chance to cavein.

 

 

You are wrong here. As of about 3 months ago we were told by Enki himself that reinforcements do NOTHING to stop collapses and yes, only make the chance much much smaller. I was told that the only exception SHOULD be an underground house as, in the code at least, they are meant to prevent collapses. However, there are multiple stories that already exist of collapses happening inside houses, too. So to me it would seem that there is no way to truly prevent collapses in a mine at all, currently

Edited by whereami
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So looks like having vault in form of knarr in a mine, inside underground house also isn't 100% safe?

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5 hours ago, whereami said:

You are wrong here. As of about 3 months ago we were told by Enki himself that reinforcements do NOTHING to stop collapses and yes, only make the chance much much smaller. I was told that the only exception SHOULD be an underground house as, in the code at least, they are meant to prevent collapses. However, there are multiple stories that already exist of collapses happening inside houses, too. So to me it would seem that there is no way to truly prevent collapses in a mine at all, currently

I can say any reports of an in house collapse should be reported, they are intended to be 100% safe (as collapsing on a house would cause lots of weird issues. 

 

As for the other part, I'll double check with the dev team and GM team about our stance from here on 

 

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See the problem is, when you get a collapse next to a reinforced cave wall, when the GM comes along to inspect it will always look like that wall was never reinforced. I have seen this personally multiple times this year due to a bug that causes collapses no matter what. I have also seen this at least 5x in the past few years where collapses happened next to reinforced tiles for no reason, and as the recent bug I have seen that too removes the reinforced tiles.

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Yeah i died in a token pit as champ once and gms didn't give back my champ life, but they did for others, weird right

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I think the main gripe most have about this (and I've been told this on another occasion by GM's and possibly higherups) is that Wurm deletes the items on those tiles when they collapse. Especially in the case of bulk-containers or vehicles. The GM's then have no way of retrieving them even if the situation is reported and deemed to be a situation where the GM would be "allowed" to help out, they have no way of doing so. Which personally I think is complete bullocks, especially when there are enough bugs concerning these kinds of mechanics in this game. So even if I did have a report for you Retrograde, I would still be out my items and possibly valuable things, with no chance of getting them back. Doesn't help me much. May as well eat my own shorts, right?

 

47 minutes ago, Mclavin said:

Yeah i died in a token pit as champ once and gms didn't give back my champ life, but they did for others, weird right

Far as I am aware champ lives have never been refundable, even if you do end up losing one to a bug or something relatively dumb or out-of-the-ordinary.

Edited by whereami

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What are they supposed to do, take your word for it that the tile collapsed onto an FSB that had 60k garlic in it?  I knew I wouldn't get the garlic back so I didn't bother to put in a ticket.

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As far as I know (and my experience tells me the same) it's pretty easy not to lose anything due to collapses: never have any item/object on a tile next to a rock wall.

 

I believe collapses always happen on tiles where at least one of the tile borders is a rock wall, tiles that have no rock wall on any tile border will not collapse at all. Thus making caves at least 3 tile wide and keep items on the middle tile is what I have always done: never lost anything due to a cave collapse that way.

 

Or has anyone seen a tile collapsing that had no adjacent rock wall at all?

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2 hours ago, JakeRivers said:

See the problem is, when you get a collapse next to a reinforced cave wall, when the GM comes along to inspect it will always look like that wall was never reinforced.

 

I don't see how this is possible; the walls adjacent to the collapsed tile should remain reinforced no matter what happens to the collapsed tile. Collapsing the tile, through any means, shouldn't change the adjacent reinforced walls, so they should still appear reinforced. Are you sure the previously reinforced walls were actually reinforced, and that someone didn't remove the reinforcements somehow?

 

 

My understanding of cave collapse functionality has always been that an open tile may collapse if there is an adjacent normal rock tile, which is to say, not reinforced or a non-rock mineral vein. I'm not sure if sharing a corner counts as "adjacent" here.

 

There are some other mechanics that can turn an open tile back to rock, of course, such as lava freezing, Shaker Orbs, and Strongwall, but I have no idea how, say, an open tile in the middle of a 3x3 of other reinforced/open/ore tiles would collapse.

Edited by Ostentatio

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1 hour ago, Ostentatio said:

I don't see how this is possible

 

I just explained that it happens, take it or leave it.

 

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7 hours ago, Wargasm said:

What are they supposed to do, take your word for it that the tile collapsed onto an FSB that had 60k garlic in it?  I knew I wouldn't get the garlic back so I didn't bother to put in a ticket.

That is exactly my point. We know the GM's aren't going to try to be of help in this scenario so why even report it? It shouldn't be like that though, IMO. In general that is quite unhealthy for the game, and it's by far not the only mechanic that serves us this way.

 

7 hours ago, Eobersig said:

As far as I know (and my experience tells me the same) it's pretty easy not to lose anything due to collapses: never have any item/object on a tile next to a rock wall.

 

I believe collapses always happen on tiles where at least one of the tile borders is a rock wall, tiles that have no rock wall on any tile border will not collapse at all. Thus making caves at least 3 tile wide and keep items on the middle tile is what I have always done: never lost anything due to a cave collapse that way.

 

Or has anyone seen a tile collapsing that had no adjacent rock wall at all?

I have seen a collapse occur inside a 3x3 (+ 1 entrance tile on the south end) with ALL reinforced floors, ALL reinforced walls on all 10 tiles. NO veins, NO open rock. It happens.

And, if you're thinking collapses only happen next to other walls reinforced or not, my entire deed has a mine underneath which is reinforced at the perimeters. (There are actually two full layers of reinforcement surrounding it) I regularly get collapses in the center that seem to be free-standing; nothing near them at all whatsoever.

Edited by whereami

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21 hours ago, Eobersig said:

As far as I know (and my experience tells me the same) it's pretty easy not to lose anything due to collapses: never have any item/object on a tile next to a rock wall.

 

I believe collapses always happen on tiles where at least one of the tile borders is a rock wall, tiles that have no rock wall on any tile border will not collapse at all. Thus making caves at least 3 tile wide and keep items on the middle tile is what I have always done: never lost anything due to a cave collapse that way.

 

Or has anyone seen a tile collapsing that had no adjacent rock wall at all?

i have seen tiles collapse in the center of my mine multiple times(my mine is around 20 wide in some places more) so it does happen 

 

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Interesting thread, now what about highway systems running through a caves. I'm guessing it's protected, but I haven't read anything about it..

 

Just so everything is under one thread about cave ins (collapses). Are highways protected from cave ins (collapses) or not?

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5 minutes ago, gorgian said:

Interesting thread, now what about highway systems running through a caves. I'm guessing it's protected, but I haven't read anything about it..

 

Just so everything is under one thread about cave ins (collapses). Are highways protected from cave ins (collapses) or not?

 

I would assume that highways are at least somewhat protected as they are reinforced tiles, but I don't know if there's any protection beyond that.

Edited by zethreal

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Now that i'm thinking about this. 

 

Also what about bridges? the ones attached to a house? and ones that are not? 

 

Guessing the ones that are not attached are not, but the that are, are deemed part of the house?

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On 8/27/2018 at 12:31 PM, gorgian said:

Interesting thread, now what about highway systems running through a caves. I'm guessing it's protected, but I haven't read anything about it..

 

Just so everything is under one thread about cave ins (collapses). Are highways protected from cave ins (collapses) or not?

 

This question was asked in CA HELP this evening.   The CAs asked the senior staff, and we were told that tiles in a mine that have catseye protection are protected from collapses.  That includes if the walls are not reinforced.

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On 8/27/2018 at 6:31 PM, gorgian said:

Just so everything is under one thread about cave ins (collapses). Are highways protected from cave ins (collapses) or not?

Collapses in center were enabled briefly a few years ago but disabled again because of impact to cave canals and other high ceiling mines.

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