ChampagneDragon

What has made you hate Wurm?

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The fact that people are willing to spend so much money to skip the grind is a clue that the grind isn't fun.

Edited by Pandalet
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Account selling is also one of the small details that also shows how much some enjoy the game. People wouldn't invest the amount they do into characters if wurm wasn't the game it is. There's none other like it and im doubtful there will be another. You can pull bad points like lag out of any game, games released last month by top devs still experience lag 😉 Graphics definitely need some tlc but the core of the game is second to none imho

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Ad 1) Being in the game only for a short time (for 330 days now with 8 months premium) I cannot appraise the amount of account trade. Yet logic tells me that such phenomenon has a limited scope. Given that it takes years to train a top level character there will always be only a small number of them for sale.

 

I now have trained my character to 1 skill level of 85 (carpentry, which is progressing relatively fast),  3 over 70 (mining, digging, and pickaxe), and 16 skills between 50 and below 70 (some close to 70). Considering that the progress curve is logarithmic, it will still take some time to reach the 80s, not to speak of the 90s. And I am quite happy with that. I refused so far to buy equipment, tools, and weaponry, only purchase priest services from time to time.

 

I acknowledge that some people want to shorten that process, even must as they lack the time I can spend for the game. So I do not see account trade a bad thing in itself. After all, this is a sandbox game, everybody free to choose her or his path. I would feel deprived by a radically shortened and "eased" skill progress.

 

Btw, the game is not expensive at all. I get a 1yr subscription for 1 char at 80€, few games beat that. Sure, if I wanted a giant deed, I would have to purchase silver. So far, the ingame silver supply exceeds the upkeep cost for my small deed.

 

Ad 2) I did not experience significant toxicity, only bit of bickering in the chat sometimes by some people. Maybe it is because I do not participate in PvP where communication tends to become venomous in practically all games. That is why usually, while no more than 10 to 20 % of the playerhood participate in PvP in most games, usually up to 75% of the administrative work is required for that branch. But that is human nature, and I do not say in any way that PvP does not have its merits and necessity (and possibly has to be worked on here in Wurm in the future).

 

Ad 3) I am unable to comment on as I lack any knowledge about staff internals and do not want to get involved as a player. Intra staff affairs have to be settled inside staff and supervised by the company management which has to settle conflicts eventually. It is not our business here in the forums, no matter whether you are right or wrong.

 

Finally, what do I hate? Not much to be honest. I sometimes hate the "creation chances" of RNG which have absurd outcomes at times. And I dislike the incomprehensibly slow progress of some branches. Shield bashing is worst of all so far.

Edited by Pandalet
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Are you kidding?  There seems to be a correlation between usability of the suggestions' forums and the decrease of PvP's population XD 

 

Maybe someday taming will become an awesome skill and all.

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I know it’s been a while since I threw my two cents in, as I no longer play Wurm Online for the most part.   I play on Wurm Unlimited now, and I enjoy my time there much more than the final year I played Wurm, where things started to go very wrong, at least from my perspective.  

 

Most of you know what happened to MR, so I won’t go into that.  But what happened with the toxic gameplay practices and metagaming by our opponents broke apart our community.  I think in my mind it left lasting scars in any consideration of ever going back to play on the same game that probably still has some of the same sorts of people that were willing to break the law to win a bunch of freaking pixels. 

 

I still keep up with my MR family when I can, and we will never forget what we had and the fun times together.   Many of you remember that for a long time I was fiercely against a single player version of Wurm, and fought tooth and nail on the forums against the idea, but in the end I’m glad I lost and Wurm Unlimited came about, because perhaps it may be the future of Wurm. 

 

Much how Ark is kept alive by it’s modding community and Minecraft has the same thing going for it, in the end I think making modded content more accessible to Unlimited, and working on keeping the engine running smoothly is the key to this game’s survival.   Now I know the steam keys for WU are pretty much on the cheap right now, but if the game continues to improve, just like other game that have improved through the hard work of their developers, and working with the community, the game will get more traction.  

 

My advice is like I said, focus on Wurm’s strength.  Above all things Wurm has always been about the freedom to build and create, and this should be emphasized in the accessibility of modding within the game.

Edited by Battlepaw

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On 11/5/2018 at 10:05 AM, Roccandil said:

 

The fact that people are willing to spend so much money to skip the grind is a clue that the grind isn't fun.

This is a very good point, we need more skill updates like they did with archaeology, you enjoy looking for caches now and it doesn't feel like a chore anymore. I think with more updates like this in other places it will slowly phase out account sales, I would like to see them disallowed but I doubt that'll happen.

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On 11/5/2018 at 4:05 PM, Roccandil said:

 

The fact that people are willing to spend so much money to skip the grind is a clue that the grind isn't fun.

 

The fact that people want to skip the most essential and biggest part of what is Wurm (a long freaking hard journey of endless grinding) means that the game isnt their cup of tea to begin with. Leave the game for players who acctually enjoy this style of big effort/high reward type of games instead of trying to fix the game into a genre/style it isnt supposed to be.

Plenty of games out there for wallet whales to play, no need to pay their way to the top to defeat players who spent years grinding their characters if they dont enjoy that part of the game to begin with. Thats just feeding some kind of little brother syndrome fantasy that they want to live up to :P

 

That being said, its always ok to make the grind more interesting and engaging/challenging, im all for that part! 

Pressing a button every few minutes isnt engaging, but wallet warriors are another part of this game that is not linked to that problem in my opinion.

Edited by Nocturnes

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1 hour ago, Nocturnes said:

The fact that people want to skip the most essential and biggest part of what is Wurm (a long freaking hard journey of endless grinding) means that the game isnt their cup of tea to begin with.

 

Except the grind isn't the biggest and most essential part: it's just a lot of clicking. The real fun in Wurm isn't getting capabilities, it's using them.

 

Like I've said, there are two Wurms:

 

1) The one you -have- to play when you don't have the capabilities of high-level skills,

2) The one you can play when you do.

 

People are clearly willing to pay a -lot- of money to play the second game.

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23 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

Except the grind isn't the biggest and most essential part: it's just a lot of clicking. The real fun in Wurm isn't getting capabilities, it's using them.

 

Like I've said, there are two Wurms:

 

1) The one you -have- to play when you don't have the capabilities of high-level skills,

2) The one you can play when you do.

 

People are clearly willing to pay a -lot- of money to play the second game.

 

 

The second one you can create using a wurm unlimited server giving everyone full skills at the beginning. Which would allowe everyone to play that second extremly funny part of Wurm for free without having to pay 400 USD for it. 

 

But thats the thing also, ppl wouldnt play it if everyone were on the same level. Especially not the wallet warriors (in pvp) who paid that amount of money to stand above 80% of the playerbase.

 

Otherwise we would see more of the Wurm unlimited 10x-20x pvp servers. 

Now for pve its abit diffrent, I could understand if someone wanted to build a huge deed cause they simply like the building part of wurm and not the grinding part to get the skills to be able to do just that, which is why unlimited servers works so well for that type of player.

 

*edit*

But yes you are right "The real fun in Wurm isn't getting capabilities, it's using them."

Its the mix of both that makes it fun and unique, the hard struggle of grinding your skills to get to use them makes you feel even more entitled/proud of the capabilities you have. The excitement of finally unlocking that ability in your meditation rank for example, makes it feel all the more special when you use it for the first time.

Edited by Nocturnes

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3 hours ago, Nocturnes said:

Otherwise we would see more of the Wurm unlimited 10x-20x pvp servers. 

 

Apparently there's too much cheating for that to work.

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20 hours ago, Nocturnes said:

 

But yes you are right "The real fun in Wurm isn't getting capabilities, it's using them."

No, he is not right. To me, this perspective sounds utterly arrogant. I have none of these high level capabilities, and I enjoy the game. I enjoyed it when I had to run half a day in search of my corps, when I had to haul a half ready rowing boat over 500 tiles or so to the lake (no hitch), ran Vrock-Glasshollow as a pedestrian, always with a long chain of mobs on my back, or when creating my first knarr at sb level 30 (everybody tried to dissuade me).

 

It is the fun of such progress as well as the deeper understanding of the game, when you fall into a dropshaft (having to struggle out), your mine being blocked by caveins, the slopes of it being messed by too steep slopes to be fixed with tons of concrete, all that.

 

I somewhat understand that in the more competitive PvP section of the game, being a lower level much more spells being the underdog. It is a matter of cameraderie and good leadership to overcome that. If such is lacking, tough luck.

 

Yet buying a high level account in no way spells being capable to use it. To some extent, the outcome may be like a kid put at the steering wheel of a Ferrari (only that derailing will be less deadly).

 

Someone told to be capable to skill up to level 90 in 1-2 mths, congratulations, I could not. But that in no way means having a sufficiently balanced high level character. Yet even if, comparing that to the cost of buying an account for 400 USD someone mentioned (and taking in account the infrastructural requirements for such an endeavour), it would be miserable profit even in Bangla Desh or India. So I do not see a plethora of HLP accounts on the marketplace.

 

 

Quote

Its the mix of both that makes it fun and unique, the hard struggle of grinding your skills to get to use them makes you feel even more entitled/proud of the capabilities you have. The excitement of finally unlocking that ability in your meditation rank for example, makes it feel all the more special when you use it for the first time.

 

Exactly. I am looking forward towards the years coming, and will eventually reach the levels to play "the second game". I very much hope it will be as much fun and thrill as the first.

Edited by Ekcin
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Permission system, i from time to time loathe it. i give my priest full rights on deed, yeah but your in a house now so don't expect to be able to use all the things you just got granted access to.

Well damnit i guess i have to add you to the house to then. Well do you honestly think you should be able to use that container in the house you just got full rights to, on the deed you also got full rights to? think again. Well feck me sideways.

 

Ok then i better get on the horse and ride and help my friend, what horse? you don't have access to the horses. But i gave him all the permissions to use animals, well you see its like this: NO.

 

Fine, i'll just bring my friend here that has the right to help me build and modify on my deed so he can help me build large crates in my storage building. Oh but you see, giving someone rights to build and modify and continue doesnt actually mean they will be able to, it's just something we type so you think it is. But i cant find any permissions on the building about being able to build? No no you need to add so he can modify THE BUILDING. Yeah that makes sense, it's often necessary to be able to remove a dry wall in the living room so you can hang a painting in the kitchen.

 

This is something that annoys me and are starting to make me hate wurm. I don't now if its me doing something wrong, but this just seems to be a dumb system. I would agree to it being good off deed, but when it is your own alts or a trusted friend, on your deed there is no reason to have this kind of overly policed crap.

And sorry if it has been brought up before, but this annoys me alot.

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On 11/5/2018 at 4:00 PM, Keenan said:

 

Wurm is a game. Anyone who relies upon it as a source of income is making a terrible life choice. We will not keep that aspect in mind when making future decisions. We will consider the balance of the game, but not the profits of a few individuals. I think we've made that clear in the past with fountain pans.

 

You owe me 22 fountain containers, just for the record :P

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10 hours ago, Ekcin said:

No, he is not right. To me, this perspective sounds utterly arrogant. I have none of these high level capabilities, and I enjoy the game.

 

None of that changes the fact that skipping the grind is worth a lot of money to people. This indicates there are a significant number of people who have no desire to grind for capabilities, but do desire to use them.

 

Glossing over that would be a mistake.

 

Incidentally, thanks to the Epic skillgain update, and despite certain frustrations I've vocalized elsewhere, I've enjoyed both games myself (73 body and still going :)).

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23 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Apparently there's too much cheating for that to work.

1

 

Confirmed. ESP + CustomRender + Timelock = WU PvP is all cheats. 

We would need a cheat detection mod to land or just make a blank map with no trees and timelocked at 12. 

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Just now, Trake said:

 

Confirmed. ESP + CustomRender + Timelock = WU PvP is all cheats. 

We would need a cheat detection mod to land or just make a blank map with no trees and timelocked at 12. 

 

WU PvP is the same myth as WO PvP.

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10 hours ago, Ekcin said:

No, he is not right. To me, this perspective sounds utterly arrogant. I have none of these high level capabilities, and I enjoy the game. I enjoyed it when I had to run half a day in search of my corps, when I had to haul a half ready rowing boat over 500 tiles or so to the lake (no hitch), ran Vrock-Glasshollow as a pedestrian, always with a long chain of mobs on my back, or when creating my first knarr at sb level 30 (everybody tried to dissuade me).

 

It is the fun of such progress as well as the deeper understanding of the game, when you fall into a dropshaft (having to struggle out), your mine being blocked by caveins, the slopes of it being messed by too steep slopes to be fixed with tons of concrete, all that.

 

I somewhat understand that in the more competitive PvP section of the game, being a lower level much more spells being the underdog. It is a matter of cameraderie and good leadership to overcome that. If such is lacking, tough luck.

 

Yet buying a high level account in no way spells being capable to use it. To some extent, the outcome may be like a kid put at the steering wheel of a Ferrari (only that derailing will be less deadly).

 

Someone told to be capable to skill up to level 90 in 1-2 mths, congratulations, I could not. But that in no way means having a sufficiently balanced high level character. Yet even if, comparing that to the cost of buying an account for 400 USD someone mentioned (and taking in account the infrastructural requirements for such an endeavour), it would be miserable profit even in Bangla Desh or India. So I do not see a plethora of HLP accounts on the marketplace.

 

 

 

Exactly. I am looking forward towards the years coming, and will eventually reach the levels to play "the second game". I very much hope it will be as much fun and thrill as the first.

 

It's occurred to me that overall you're describing the "honeymoon period" when a player first finds Wurm and the progression is quick and fun: building your first house, killing your first wolf, exploring and learning various systems, getting better gear, seeing what's behind that next mountain, etc.

 

At some point, though, a player is going to hit the Grind: the wall where progression is no longer possible without a great deal of repetition, and once a player who's enjoying the Wurm opening really understands what it will take to keep progressing, -that's- when they'll be vulnerable to buying an account.

 

For many people, doing the same things over and over again isn't fun, and to those who can afford it, it's likely to make sense to spend the money to skip the boring part (and even for those who can't afford it, that doesn't mean the desire isn't there).

 

So, make the mid-game grind more fun, and the susceptibility of players to buying accounts will be reduced. (For me, the Epic skillgain system was, without question, a step in that direction.)

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Well, thanks for the elaborate comment. Yet I think that every relationship would call itself happy about a honeymoon period lasting about 11 months now and not about to wane soon.

 

My main problem with wurm is not slow grind. Rather it is that there are so many threads of experience to learn and to follow, some of them creating chores and being a hindrance to developing others. E.g. when visiting out server activities it is hard for me to follow the chain of harvesting forestry stuff and tending my farm. My main problem rather is to become too much absorbed. Skills are going up, some slowly, some faster, and are in no way a major concern.

 

I understand that people concentrated on the PvP aspect of the game have a ways more urgent need and desire to achieve maximum abilities. I have no short, quick, and easy solution for that.

 

Also, people tightly caught in RL chores, be they in family or profession, indeed have less chance to proceed. That is a problem in most MMOs not oriented on casual players. I do therefore not condemn anybody who tries to cash out that gap. CC intentionally openened that opportunity, and I consider that a better move than leaving it to shady gold farmers from south Asia on a black market like in most other MMOs. It is not ideal, ofc.

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I love the game, but hate the declining population. I really wish some marketing god would drop from the sky to volunteer some time to helping WO pick up a bit of pace. This game doesn't require an insanely huge player base but it does need, at the least, some slow growth to have a proper future that it deserves.

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Spent 2 years soloing a deed on a warfront, a true citadel given a good population would appear. 5 tiers of perfection with over 100 buildings, an elevator, quick release mob pens, traps and other unique quirky features found no-where else then one time I was late with upkeep and it disbanded. No middle ground, just all that effort gone in one tick. Still gets to me now and I haven't played since but unless you automate things or put a ton of upkeep on the same will happen to all of 'em. I particularly would love an exact template of mine at it's peak that I could load in to WU or similar.

 

Offdeed decay. Scavenging abandoned places used to be one of the joys of Wurm, possibly my favorite one. Many a gaming forum collective have passed through the servers leaving cities of decaying fun to rifle through. A small amount of decay is a wanted feature I expect but the levels I remember were pointless and killed most of the exploration for me.

 

I also think it would be savvy to let f2p ride horses. I mean just about, with 19.9 BC so they could be top of the f2p pile and give the f2p players it's own culture. Much player retention has been missed there for sure. They may be shanty towns but so many would prem that Wurm wouldn't have a problem any more. I think riding would do it.

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15 hours ago, Challenge said:

I love the game, but hate the declining population. I really wish some marketing god would drop from the sky to volunteer some time to helping WO pick up a bit of pace. This game doesn't require an insanely huge player base but it does need, at the least, some slow growth to have a proper future that it deserves.

 

We need better trailers and player made short videos, if we had someone with good video editing skills to add some cheesy effects and such would be great.

 

If its anything I have noticed its that good videos brings the new players to give old games a try. (Even if they arent showing 100% truth they usually try to send a "feeling" of the game as a message more then the visuals of the engine)

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On 11/12/2018 at 3:14 AM, Nocturnes said:

If its anything I have noticed its that good videos brings the new players to give old games a try. (Even if they arent showing 100% truth they usually try to send a "feeling" of the game as a message more then the visuals of the engine)

 

I learned about Wurm a year ago, but couldn't seem to get used to the controls so quit before I even finished the tutorial. Last month, I stumbled upon a Youtube video about Wurm ("A Day in the Life" by KatsPurr), and it inspired me to give it another try. I honestly don't think I would have given it another chance otherwise. It has already become my all time favorite and most played video game ever (289 hours in 24 days lol)

Edited by Ayleth

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